Smokey Shayne Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Im sure I will probably get hammered over this question...but I still have to ask Why is it that it takes at least 2 people seeing a miss before it is called, but it only takes one to call a P? Seems like that should be a majority decision too. Im sure a lot of us have seen it happen. And Im also sure that many of us have seen counters who are confused themselves. Heck...at a match a while back after I finished a stage, the 3 spotters had.... clean, 1 miss and 3 misses. And Im pretty sure I had 4.....good thing I wasnt counting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The error in your thinking is who calls the p. Normally the to is the one that calls the p, the spotters only verify that the p occurred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Where we shoot everyone has the ability to call a "P". TO and spotters. Spotters are watching the shooter, hits/misses, target order etc. TO should be watching the shooter not what he's shooting at or not. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The TO reports Ps and other penalties to the scorekeeper, with 0, 1, 2 or 3 spotters seeing the infractions. It his decision based on what he sees and or spotters see. He does not have to agree with the spotters and can apply a penalty the spotters missed. He can dismiss calls made by the spotter(s). This all does not apply to misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The TO reports Ps and other penalties to the scorekeeper, with 0, 1, 2 or 3 spotters seeing the infractions. It his decision based on what he sees and or spotters see. He does not have to agree with the spotters and can apply a penalty the spotters missed. He can dismiss calls made by the spotter(s). This all does not apply to misses. ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ Bada Bing!!! (Changed that "all", not needed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Because we have a division of responsibilities on the firing line. TO watches the shooter FIRST and FOREMOST. Most Ps and Safeties are visible by watching the shooter. Spotters watch the targets FIRST and FOREMOST. Misses can be correctly called only by watching and listening to the targets. With a fast shooter or a complex stage, even good TOs can have a hard time counting misses accurately, and they should not be distracting their attention by trying to do so. Now, why do we have the TO able to override the spotters on a Safety call or make an independent call of a P? Because the TO had better be one of the more experienced and rules knowledgeable of the range officer set. And some P and safety calls are "close up and personal" (like a dangerous draw or reholster attempt, some 170 violations, staging faults, etc) that none of the spotters may be in a good position to see. Besides, bottom line is: Because that is the way the current rules are written. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 There is no such thing as "A Quick Rules Question" on this forum. Not at all uncommon to see a question with a "yes" or "no" answer run to three or four pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The TO may not overrule the spotters' calls on misses, but (I believe) has the final call on procedurals ( P's ). The TO should also not argue, harass, or (try to) intimidate the spotters into conforming to his own assessments regarding misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I shoot at a club with stages where foot position while shooting is part of the stage description. On these type of stages, if the spotters are doing their job and watching the targets, the only person able to see that the shooter is shooting from the correct position is the TO. If it took 2 people to call a P, you would not be able to enforce the shooting positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The TO may not overrule the spotters' calls on misses, but (I believe) has the final call on procedurals ( P's ). The TO should also not argue, harass, or (try to) intimidate the spotters into conforming to his own assessments regarding misses. But he can point out what he saw including any relevant edge hits, then let spotters make up their own mind. He can ask the spotters what target was missed by what gun and see if there is any agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 But he can point out what he saw including any relevant edge hits, then let spotters make up their own mind. He can ask the spotters what target was missed by what gun and see if there is any agreement. If its only one miss, maybe 2, I can remember the gun/target for the most part. any more than that, not so much. But I'm also thinking if they have more than 2-3 misses, they probably aren't going to question it anyway. What I don't like is to see spotters looking at other spotters to see how many fingers they are holding. If you ain't sure, it a hit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 But he can point out what he saw including any relevant edge hits, then let spotters make up their own mind. He can ask the spotters what target was missed by what gun and see if there is any agreement. Sure, the TO can ask those questions, but SHOULD he? I don't think so,... especially which target was missed. It begs the question: "Well pard, if you can't recall which target was missed, how can you say the shooter missed it?" That's illogical, and irrelevant and I consider that a form of intimidation. If the TO wishes to be a spotter, he can tuck a baton in his belt and do both jobs.....which is not allowed. :-) :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Sure, the TO can ask those questions, but SHOULD he? I don't think so,... especially which target was missed. It begs the question: "Well pard, if you can't recall which target was missed, how can you say the shooter missed it?" That's illogical, and irrelevant and I consider that a form of intimidation. If the TO wishes to be a spotter, he can tuck a baton in his belt and do both jobs.....which is not allowed. :-) :-) Sure the TO should ask, especially when the spotters are as far apart as the OP...1 clean...1 miss...3 miss I sure hope my TO is looking out for me and ready to change spotters when needed. Watch the Gun By actually looking at the gun, you can identify where the gun is pointing and usually what target the shooter is engaging. This is critical if you have to make a call pertaining to correct target engagement. I often ask which target I missed, if they remember fine, if not no biggie. But spotters need to be paying close attention and position themselves where they can clearly see hits or misses. Not jawing with uncle Bob then holding up whatever finger agrees with another spotter. C) The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters in regard to misses, but can question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator is often in the best position to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in determining edge hits. It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Sure, the TO can ask those questions, but SHOULD he? I don't think so,... especially which target was missed. It begs the question: "Well pard, if you can't recall which target was missed, how can you say the shooter missed it?" That's illogical, and irrelevant and I consider that a form of intimidation. If the TO wishes to be a spotter, he can tuck a baton in his belt and do both jobs.....which is not allowed. :-) :-) If spotters can not remember anything about the misses except how many fingers that they are counting on, then maybe it is time to replace the spotter. I agree that multiple misses are hard to remember but I can usually remember the gun and which shot had the miss for at least a couple at my advanced age and depleted memory. TO asks the questions to see if spotters are really paying attention. It is interesting, sometimes the spotters can not even remember which gun had the miss. I have seen each spotter call one miss and they all said a different gun. Time for spotter recycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 If spotters can not remember anything about the misses except how many fingers that they are counting on, then maybe it is time to replace the spotter. I agree that multiple misses are hard to remember but I can usually remember the gun and which shot had the miss for at least a couple at my advanced age and depleted memory. TO asks the questions to see if spotters are really paying attention. It is interesting, sometimes the spotters can not even remember which gun had the miss. I have seen each spotter call one miss and they all said a different gun. Time for spotter recycle. The above is your opinion and, I'll be the first (or somewhere up in the first few) to say so and to say you are entitled to it.. At the same time, I will also state my own opinion....that being that opinions are like noses........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Why is it ..... question about the rule follows here. Sigh. As previously discussed in this forum, WHY questions about rules rarely break any new ground. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Shayne, As stated above, the TO determines penalties (P's, MSVs and DQ's) with input from the spotters. Except for misses, which should go strictly by a majority of spotters' counts. Possum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Shayne Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Oh well...guess Im the odd man out. I have always felt that it should be like misses...majority rules. Yes, I know what the rules state, and yes I have made the call myself. Thanks everyone for your input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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