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Pigpen SASS#1339L

Winter Range Long Range information

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Lunger, I guess the "tongue-in-cheek" didn't come out the fingers & thru the keyboard. :huh: But... I've set up our long range steel in the past... just drove out a ways and dropped off stand and target, drove a bit farther and dropped off #2 stand and target... then again for the rest. I didn't know the distance, nor did anyone else... just knew it was inside the 250 yards to far side of the creek! If there were complaints, I didn't hear about 'em. Kinda like huntin'... I don't use a range finder... yep, I've missed a few shots over the years... Then again, maybe that's why they ain't asked me to help recently... :o:lol:

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Griff, I don't doubt that you didn't receive complaints. I believe lots of folks are just thankful to shoot their long range guns, and appreciate anyone who will set up steel, or volunteer to run the side match. However if you were to poll the shooters and ask if they would rather it be a game of chance, and pretty much a speed event, at larger steel, or a well ran precision event, on a level playing field, where the exact distance wasn't a secret, sighters were allowed, and the best shot, with the best handloads would typically win the event.........nearly everyone would take the second option. We already have speed events that we all enjoy with our short stroked race guns. Long range single shot ought to be about precision, and not a game of chance. I also believe that you should use your rangefinder when hunting, rather than wounding your animal, or missing him outright. Anyway, right now I'm waiting on confirmation from the management to haul a 4 wheeler down to the range and haul steel and paint, and do anything I can to help improve a side match at a nnational event free of charge. Cheers

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I respectfully disagree. Weren't no rangefinders in 1880... As far as an animal...if it's to far; I should get closer.

Those that put on these events. I applaud you:). Whatever the game I'm in.

Secret shots...I live in Phoenix, I've shot at Ben Avery before it was Ben Avery. I have never shot at a target in secret; I shoot when you shoot, for the first time.

Again WR long range guys, main match, and any other function volunteers...Thank You, have a great Christmas and New Year, I'll buy you a beer if I'm around:).

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Long range shooting competition in the 1800s were at exact distances. Whitworth, and Gibbs muzzleloaders, sharps, rolling blocks, ect.

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Only what I read, SS. Bunch of information about creedmoor matches. Interesting stuff about the US shooting against the Irish at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. The Irish totally held their own with us firing muzzleloaders, whilst we ran rolling blocks and sharps breech loading rifles.

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A rifle sighted in at 3,884 ft. of elevation will shoot MUCH differently at WR , not to mention one that has been bouncing on down the road in a camper for 1,800 miles...

Plus differing levels of Humidity ,,,,,,,,, etc .... Did ya all Know The BC of the bullet changes due to the elevation .... What`s the change in velocity .....

There are just TOO many variables not to make practice targets available if you want all to have a fair chance ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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😕 no idea...I'm going to shoot at the distances disclosed...I believe that they are honest...I'm out...

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Pigpen stick to your guns and don't change anything it is one of the best long ranges in the county. This will be my seventh trip and it always had fun. I have a set of targets like Winter Range uses and I'm not a local and I shoot at 5000 feet and 800 miles from Winter Range. I can hit 10 out of ten at home BUT WINTER HAS A BUZZER and when It gose off I cam miss some of them. Just relaxe shoot and have fun and you will do much better.

Edited by GARDNER KID

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I think we should thank pigpen for agreeing to put up sighter targets. Shows he's trying, and that's why i've offered to help him out. No reason jabez can't come shoot it now.....

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How long will the line be for the one sight in target and can you make sure every one can use it befor it is your round to shoot. I don't think that would be fair to all the shooter. some time there may not a line and on the other hand it may take two houres. DON'T PUT IN A SIGHTIN TARGET.

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Thank-you shout-out to Pigpen ,,,,,

 

This will improve things for all ....

 

A second trip to WR just might be in the Cards ,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Thank-you shout-out to Pigpen ,,,,,

 

This will improve things for all ....

 

A second trip to WR just might be in the Cards ,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

+1. For I too, like known distances... but, I'm willing to gamble a little also.

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Looks like Bill has me down to work the 8 to 11am shift. I'll haul steel, paint, spot, or anything that's needed. Looking forward to it. I'll work this yr, and probably shoot long range again next yr. Going to squeeze the later warmup shift in for main match, so I can help out through the morning.

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Lunger and others thanks for the offers to help. Lunger the Wednesday volunteers do not haul steel or do any heavy lifting or painting. They help with the actual running of the side matches. (Spotting, timing, scoring, etc.) Running the side matches has its own set of challenges and things aren't always as easy as they might seem. Winter Range reserves virtually all the ranges on the west side of Ben Avery from February the 14th through February 27th. The side matches are on Wednesday, February 22. For the Wild Bunch match and the Cowboy action match, and for the actual Wednesday side matches, there are hundreds of people shooting so there is no question about the status of our reservations and the use of the various ranges and range buildings. However, on the long range bays even though we begin set up days before the Wednesday side matches begin and generally take them down on the Sunday and Monday following the end of Winter Range (this year that would be February 26th and 27th) the bays used for long range appear to be empty and unused on days other than side match Wednesday and other user groups want to use those bays. Trying to be good neighbors we have tried to accomodate matches that have been scheduled for the weekend of February 18th and the weekend of February 25. (We do some juggling of ranges almost every year.) Thus, we have to delay setting some long range targets and have to move other long range targets early in order to accomodate these other user groups. (These matches are using the 500 meter range. The 1000 yard range is used for parking during Winter Range.) Also, some of the bays used for long range belong to the Department of Public Safety and they only allow Winter Range to use their ranges for a limited time. So Pigpen is doing the best he can to try and accomodate shooter requests for an opportunity to sight in their rifles. Hopefully everyone that wants to will have an opportunity to fire a few practice rounds.

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Thanks for the info Larson! I will be there, and able to work on steel set up Monday before the side event on weds, if needed. Also left my cell number with Bill to work out any details. If you folks have it set up before then, ill just do what I can for you weds morning. Looking forward to it. Lunger

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I do most of my sighting in and practice at 6400-6800 feet up in northern AZ. Shooting a .38-55 Buffalo Classic, a Trapdoor, and a Krag I have not found that an elevation change of over 5000 feet coming to Winter Range precludes me from hitting that steel at 300. Came in( 2nd/ 9 seconds behind Jackpine Bill in 2015) with the Buffalo Classic. And that was having to calculate the comeup from 150 to 300 yards using the data in the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook.

 

I also had 2nd in Military Singleshot and 1st in the Bucky O'Neill. Not bragging but establishing my bona fides. The elevation change some folks have worried about might change your point of impact 3-6 inches but that is a BIG chunk of steel out there. Just aim fer the middle.

 

I am one of Pigpen's helpers on the Long Range event and hope to see you all out there.

 

 

Aim small, miss small. :) .

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Well I ran my ballistic program some using my range conditions, then I simply changed ONLY the elevation to that of what I Now Understand is the case at Winter Range ... My program includes a feature that high-lights the differences, so here goes.,,, Numbers all show the difference as Greater at WR than at my range ,,, ie; the bullet drop Zeroed at 300 yards at my range the bullet would be 1.66 inches low at WR wind drift an extra 7.47 inches, Bullet slower by 20 fps.

 

At 400 yards 3.96 inches extra drop,Wind drift extra 12.42 inches, Bullet slower by 20.5 fps.

 

At 500 Yards 7.69 extra drop,, wind drift extra 18.172 inches, bullet slower by 20.7 Fps.

 

At 1,000 Yards 59.09 inches extra drop, wind drift extra 90.5 inches, bullet slower by 23.7 Fps.

 

All this is for a high BC . 4065 dia. bullet weighing 410 grains started out at 1,450 Fps.

Every .45-70 load in have Chronographed would fair worse that the above load and also every .38-55 load even more so ...

 

To get as high a BC in .45 caliber requires a bullet of around 570 grains , and I have never seen a .45-70 come close to 1,450 Fps. with a bullet of this weight in use in this game .... Most clock under the speed of sound ...

 

Ballistic testing and Gunsmithing are how I afford to pay to play this Game ...

Hope this helps ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Btt:

 

Hope Da numbers didn't scare ya all ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Jabez owboy

 

 

The 1.66 ichcs of dorp in your last post# 53. The 1.66 was that in inches or was it in MOA. I came up with a drop of about 4 inches from the firing line to the target at 300 yd. I'm just asking.????

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The 1.66 inches of drop is the extra drop you would have, caused by the change in elevation if you kept the same sight setting for 300 yards on my range then went to a range 2,000 feet lower elevation...

All numbers are for Additional Drop or Drift and not the final number but must be added to the amount of Drop and Drift already accounted for at my range....

 

The problem is also what would the velocity difference be ? All of the numbers are based on the velocity staying at 1.450 fps. ,,,, But this is an unknown and I can't haul my Chronograph equipment with me...

So the only true way available to a Cowboy is test firing ....

 

As an aside even Published BC values are not always accurate , for instance When the Hornady SST hunting bullet first came out in .270 cal . their stated BC was out by 20% as I found out by actual test firing I talked to their ballistic guy and he stated that yes the model they used to predict the BC had given the wrong BC and they had just finished test firing this bullet and that their data reflected the greater BC the same as my data ... They changed the BC in their data to reflect the 20% higher BC ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Edited by Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129

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Thanks for making the effort to improve this for all.

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Btt:

 

Have fun all ... Best of 2017 wishes to all ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Pards,

 

I signed up for the sporting clays side match. I was just wondering how the targets are thrown. Do they throw singles, true pairs, report pairs?

 

Also wondering about distance - close and quick or long shots.

 

Mose

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Jabez, I expect to see yourself and your long range guns in Medicine Hat on the 10 June. Practice up.

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As long as it doesn't have an ejector if my memory serves right

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Jabez Cowboy,

 

Just so my simple mind understands this long range calculation, if I am sighted in at say 5,000' elevation and WR is say 1,500-2,000' that's a change of lets say for simplicity -3,000' how much of a drop or change should be expected?

 

Thanks for this info,

 

TB

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