remington model 700 vs military model 700

[Trigger Mike]

i hear of several Remington model 700 that go off inadvertently due to trigger problems but do not hear of the military having that problem. are they and it is not reported or are their rifles equipped with better mechanisms that prevent accidental discharge?

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

I don't know if the military 700'sare bought to different specifications than the commercial models, but I expect they are. I am sure that they are also gone over by military specialists (armorers) and completely customized for their role/use. Just like a lot of our CAS guns....

[Guest Grass Range #51406]

Trigger group is the same. From what I have seen spilling beer, coffee, pop, water, etc on the rifle where it ends up in the trigger housing can cause the internal parts to bind. These can be completely disassembled and the individual parts cleaned. Some of these "accidents" are to be blamed on operator error and not the rifle.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The biggest difference is the military pays ten times as much for the gun.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Trigger group is the same. From what I have seen spilling beer, coffee, pop, water, etc on the rifle where it ends up in the trigger housing can cause the internal parts to bind. These can be completely disassembled and the individual parts cleaned. Some of these "accidents" are to be blamed on operator error and not the rifle.

 

Not necessarily...

 

The snipers I've known had Jewell triggers in their 700's (M40's).

 

Never knew one of 'em to spill beer in them, though...

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

When your butt is on the line, spilling anything around your life support is not a good idea.

[Lost Trail]

I have two (2) Model 700's. One is a 1973 BDL in .243 Win. Tack driving sweetheart that my grandparents bought for my birthday that year for $135 NIB. Never had any problems and it has had probably >3,000 rounds through it.

 

The other is a 1998 ADL in .30-06 that my wife and daughters got me for Christmas that year. Probably around 1,500 rounds through and not one issue other than it's not quite as accurate as the BDL.

 

But then I tend not to have soda, coffee, etc. near them very often.

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

Military armorers are smart enough to not reduce the amount of sear engagement to the danger point.

Remington should never have made that adjustment user adjustable.

[SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402]

i have been thru the remington training at the factory. i have never found a problem with this rifle . my feeling is most problems accure when the shade tree armorer fixes the problen that were never there to begain with. the triger system is set on a tension screw type that is done with two screws and not recomended for other than factory approved .

[Ramblin Gambler]

If you're talking about the XD trigger recall, I thought that was because they used an adhesive that broke down and bubbled up.

[Sedalia Dave]

First you could have fired over 1000 different Remington 700 rifles and NEVER encountered this problem. Of the over 2 million firearms produced with the X-Mark Pro trigger only about 1% or 20,000 rifles actually had any problems and even then it was difficult to reproduce.

 

There were actually two different issues that resulted in the replacement of the trigger assemblies.

 

The first recall was limited to the XMP triggers and was caused by a bonding issue that almost exclusively occurred when the rifle was cold soaked below freezing. It was all but impossible to reproduce at room temperature. Oddly enough the XMP triggers contain the design changes that would have prevented ANY Remington firearm with a Walker Trigger from experiencing an AD through no fault of the owner. Seel my next post on the Walker Trigger recall.

 

Here is the actual video that persuaded a judge to cause the initial recall Remington rifles with the XMP trigger..

 

Published on Dec 30, 2013

** The video that led to the 11 April 2014 Remington 700 recall. **
(Read remarks below for explanation)

Rifle purchased in November 2009.
- X-Mark Pro Trigger has NEVER been adjusted
- Sighted in summer 2010 and summer 2011 in preparation for fall 2011 hunting season - no issues or problems.
- Shot a deer on a warm day in November 2011 without incident
- No problems summer 2012 during multiple sight-in sessions.
- COLD day, November 2012, rifle discharged when moving safety lever from Safe to Fire.
-- Could not duplicate the problem after numerous attempts in my home using Snap Caps and on the rifle range summer 2013 under controlled conditions
- COLD day November 2013, rifle fired a second time while moving safety lever from Safe to Fire
-- This was the last time live rounds have been loaded in this rifle.
-- Could not duplicate problem in my home using Snap Caps
- Surmised COLD temperatures may be affecting the metal or some other component in the trigger assembly
-- Tested theory by placing rifle in garage where temperature was approximately 10 degrees (roughly the temperature during my hunts where discharges were experienced).
-- This caused the rifle to dry-fire (using Snap Caps) when placing the safety lever from Safe to Fire.
-- Allowed rifle to warm to room temperature once again - problem could not be duplicated
-- Cold temperatures definitely affect the trigger system!!!
-- I assume Remington could not duplicate the problem in their factory while they investigated the history of trigger problems due to the 72 degree or so temperatures there and not testing the effects of COLD temperatures
- Took rifle to a gunsmith (who was once Remington certified).
-- Gunsmith inspected rifle and was not able to identify problem
-- He recommended sending it back to the Remington factory

30 Dec 2013 - I created this video and wrote an information paper outlining my rudimentary experiment and identifying the issues with the Remington 700 X-Mark Pro trigger, suggesting Remington COOL their rifles then re-test the trigger groups.
-- Of note, after I finished producing this video, my rifle mis-fired (using Snap Caps) two additional times in the COLD garage.
- 19 Feb 2014 - Sent rifle to ARM Services in Ilion, NY with information paper and suggestion to view this YouTube video for demonstration
- 25 Feb - Received an e-mail from Remington indicating they received my rifle.
-- E-mail contained a link to get a status of rifle's repair. Problem is when I click on the link, I get this message, "There are no results for the data entered."
- 18 Mar 2014 - Sent Remington an e-mail asking for the status of my rifle, as the link was not helpful and my rifle seems to have 'disappeared'.
- 27 Mar 2014 - Received the following message from Remington in regards to my Customer Service inquiry "Jim, Your gun is being replaced with a new gun. It should be shipped next week." No further explanation as to 'why' or findings/results of their testing.
- 9 Apr 2014 - Received a phone call from a Remington representative (Public Relations) asking if I would speak to a Remington engineer regarding my rifle. I agreed.
- 10 Apr 2014 - Spoke to a Remington engineer who explained a major factor was my reference to the temperature and its effect on the trigger assembly (specifically, the bonding agent used during the manufacturing process). He also thanked me for producing this video, sending in my rifle, and sending the accompanying information paper explaining my rudimentary experiment and methods used to discover the issue. He informed me Remington was planning a multi-year recall of the Remington model 700 with the X-Mark Pro trigger, which was subsequently issued 11 Apr 2014.
- 11 Apr 2014 - Received following e-mail from Remington representative:
"It was a pleasure talking with you yesterday. I wanted to forward you a copy of the recall notice and press release that was recently released. Again, I would like to thank you very much for helping us. Without your rifle we might not have been able to identify this issue. Today we have all benefited from your efforts. I will be back in touch soon."

Remington intends to retain my Model 700. They will send me a new Remington 700 AWR II.

[Sedalia Dave]

The second and even older issue that caused the recall of 7.5 million Remington firearms covering many different models including the Model 700 that had what is now known as a Walker Trigger installed. It is called a Walker Trigger because Remington Engineer Merle "Mike" Walker, who invented it in the 1940s. The ultimate nail in the coffin was some correspondence between Mike Walker and his superiors identifying the potential flaw yet company executives chose to ignore Mr Walker's warnings.

 

 

Inside Remington Rifle's Controversial Trigger

At the heart of the decades-long controversy over the Remington 700 series is a piece of metal that is roughly the length of a paper clip.

It is called a “trigger connector,” and it is an integral part of the firing mechanism patented by Remington engineer Merle “Mike” Walker in 1950. The so-called “Walker trigger” was a breakthrough in firearm design, allowing the smooth, crisp action favored by expert shooters at an affordable price.

The connector is mounted on a spring inside the firing mechanism, sitting between the trigger and the sear—the metal bar that holds back the firing pin. According to Walker’s patent, the connector not only smoothes the action of the trigger, but also eliminates “trigger slap,” where the trigger bounces back slightly after the gun is fired.

To this day, Walker calls his invention “a perfect trigger.” But multiple lawsuits against Remington allege the design is flawed. They claim small amounts of rust, debris, or even a small jolt can push the connector out of alignment, separating the trigger itself from the rest of the firing mechanism. Then, the complaints allege, the gun can go off when other parts are operated, such as the safety or the bolt.

Walker himself advocated a mechanism that would have held the trigger and connector in place while the safety was on, but internal company documents show Remington rejected Walker’s “trigger block” because of the cost—estimated in 1948 to be an additional 5 ½ cents per gun. Rest of the Story here.

 

And yes you can improperly adjust the trigger and cause an un-intentional discharge but rifles that had NEVER been adjusted were experiencing unintentional discharges.

 

So one again you could have fired hundreds if not thousands of Remington firearms with a Walker Trigger and the odds of you coming across one that was improperly manufactured was very very remote.

 

 

If you are interested in learning more you can read a pretty good explanation of the chain of events that eventually resulted in Remington agreeing to replacing the trigger assemblies installed in about 7.5 million firearms.

Remington hid dangers of controversial trigger:

It is yet another case where it was cheaper to settle the eventual lawsuits than it was to admit the problem and change the design.

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Skippping all that other stuff.

I just got a 788 and no problems.

Try it you like it....or had you bought the 700 already?

Best

CR

Might sell the one in 243 to a good home.....

[Ramblin Gambler]

I know someone who would want that model 700 in .243.

 

This trigger talk reminds me of a show I saw last year, I think it was on discovery channel, but I can't remember the title. All I remember is that a family was hunting out in the snow. The wife had a new gun (as far as I could tell, it was a model 700 BDL). She was going to take a shot at an animal and had an AD when she flipped off the safety and nearly shot the person she was hunting with. On the show, they gave her a rash of $&!+ about how she must have had something caught on the trigger. I was disappointed that they apparently never figured out the gun was the problem.