Brooklyn Slim Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 So my question is whether I need to pay the $200.00 permit fee for the installation and removal of a conversion cylinder in a cap and ball revolver. Background: Bought a 1911 about a year ago when I first got into guns for home defense. Was getting better shooting two handed, but not so good right handed, and awful left handed. In a home defense situation, it seemed like a good idea to have a free hand for lights, doors, etc., but I would be ineffective shooting one handed. So I thught of putting a laser sight on the 1911, which I did, and getting a stock like device to stabilize the 1911 against my shoulder. The agent at my local armory told me that I would be converting a pistol to a short barrel rifle, and would need to pay $200.00 for a permit to do it. He also said I would need another $200.00 permit to remove the stock device since I would be converting a short barrel rifle to a pistol. He said that techincally I would need a $200.00 permit eachtime I made the change. So I can buy a cap and ball revolver with no FFL transfer or background check. I can buy a conversion cylinder for a cap and ball revolver with no FFL or background check. Now, when I install the conversion cylinder the resulting revolver shoots cartridge ammo. If I buy a conversion revolver, a background check and FFL is required. As we are entering a period of what could be an ATF unleashed enforcement (or harrasment), and the penalty significant (10 years in the slammer), we should figure this out and be compliant. I'm not asking anyone for legal advice. Just wondering how CAS shooters handle this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think the agent at you armory has some checking up to do. Right now it is legal(in California) to install conversion cylinders. As for the stock, I believe you would have to obtain the same license the machine guys do, but you would only have to buy it once, IF California would even allow you to do it. they don't allow allow you to buy machine guns here anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Lizard Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I hope we don't talk too much about this in the open...Would like not to see any problems down tine... Texas Lizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullwhip Karl Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Installing a conversion cylinder in an un-modified blackpowder revolver is legal, no FFL needed. This means you have to remove the cylinder each time to reload the revolver. If you want to use a "Gated" conversion cylinder to reload without removing the cylinder, you must modify the right blast shield of the revolver for clearance of the ejected cylinder. Once this modification is done the revolver is no longer considered a blackpowder revolver and must be registered as a handgun. This is according to Federal Law your state law may add more restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Why do you think it's NOT legal. BTW, you should add you location so we don't have to guess on these types of questions. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Slim Posted January 9, 2013 Author Share Posted January 9, 2013 Why do you think it's NOT legal. BTW, you should add you location so we don't have to guess on these types of questions. LG I live in PA, which has reasonable attitude toward guns, except for Philly. Believe it's Federal Laws involved in modifying guns. Because I'm changing a cap and ball revolver to a cartridge revolver, I was wondering about the legality or requirement for a $200.00 permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I live in PA, which has reasonable attitude toward guns, except for Philly. Believe it's Federal Laws involved in modifying guns. Because I'm changing a cap and ball revolver to a cartridge revolver, I was wondering about the legality or requirement for a $200.00 permit. What's this $200.00 you speak of?? I know of NO law that sez you CAN'T do this. You need to call your local BATFE and have a 'word'. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I live in PA, which has reasonable attitude toward guns, except for Philly. Believe it's Federal Laws involved in modifying guns. Because I'm changing a cap and ball revolver to a cartridge revolver, I was wondering about the legality or requirement for a $200.00 permit. A conversion cylinder is a part, not a conversion. As stated above, when you "CONVERT" a BP revlover to a cartridge "only" firearm, then you have a legal, FFL, type revolver. If you can return the firearm back to BP, as with the conversion cylinder, no problem. I shoot ROA's with conversion cylinders all the time. All I have to do is change the cylinders and I have a BP gun again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtwater Doc 17941 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Although I can't find it now I saw this discussed in the legal forum of TheHighRoad.org. Several attorneys with experience said repeatedly that in self defense issue any modifications to the firearm could be considered evidence that the person using it was looking to find "trouble". Rather than take a chance, get yourself a newer pistol with mounting point for laser or lamp and practice, practice, practice. The alternative is a pump shotgun with the appropriate lighting attached to it. Just my opinion and I could be.... DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 OK, here is how it works. If you drop a conversion cylinder into an UNMODIFIED cap and ball frame, all you have done is install a "part." There is no requirement to register anything. With or without the cylinder, th gun is NOT considered a firearm. If you drop a gated conversion cylinder such as a Kirsr into the gun AND you cut the loading/unloading channel into the frame, it is now considered a firearm by BATF and you have manufactured a firearm without a license. You MAY do this for yourself. Perfectly legal. It is now yous for life as it is non-transferable. Should you sell it or give it to anyone and it comes to the attention of the BATF, you have committed a felony and they DO NOT take prisoners. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 A great deal of this is always going to be based on common sense, how would someone someone prove that it was you who created the conversion ten years ago, when your son has it now and says he created it last month? Just joking here, we would not want to rile the feds up, this was one of those rare interpretations that truly favored us, so we do not want to ruffle any feathers on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Quote from ATF site: Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm? As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means — … any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica — is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or [*]any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. I don't know how easy it is to instal the conversion cylinders but if it can be done readily then it becomes a firearm under the last sentence. Also according to section B sub-section i it is then redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire cartridges it then becomes a firearm. It all falls under the interpretation of the arresting officer and then the judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 By federal law a cap and ball gun is not a firearm. Yo can buy it and/or a cylinder as easy as a claw hammer. STATE laws vary. In NYS a cap and ball gun is not a GUN UNLESS you also have cap and ball and powder in possession. if you have the fixins to fire it, it is a legal HANDGUN and has to be on your pistol permit like any other. So yer cylinder changes nothing in NY because ya already had to have a permit to shoot yer cap n ball. Now if ya wanna just buy em and look at em, no permit needed. You can buy em, but once ya get the fixins to shoot em, ya best get em on yer permit r yer in trouble if caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Slim Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 Quote from ATF site: Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm? As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means — … any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica — is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or [*]any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. I don't know how easy it is to instal the conversion cylinders but if it can be done readily then it becomes a firearm under the last sentence. Also according to section B sub-section i it is then redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire cartridges it then becomes a firearm. It all falls under the interpretation of the arresting officer and then the judge. Thanks for the ATF rules. So my basic question is what is the procedure for properly doing this? A FFL wouldn't be involved, I don't think, since I already own everything. Getting back to my original post, sounds like I would need a permit to convert the cap and ball revolver into a "firearm". Similar to the permit process to put a supressor on a pistol or rifle. Interestingly, I asked Cabelas a question on-line on the page listing their 1858 New Army about a conversion cylinder. Their response was that they didn't know of any such conversion cylinder. Covering their ass I suppose. As BB said, the arresting officer and judge have a lot of discretion, and a lot may depend on their political pursuations. Not to mention an aggressive prosecutor. I would think there would be some type of paper issued that the holder of a revolver with a conversion cylinder installed could carry with him to remove the ambiguity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 You need to read that last sentence again EXACTLY as it is written. It does NOT mention "cylinder" anywhere. It states barrel, bolt or breachblock. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 This is what changes it from an antique to a modern firearm. any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica — is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or Once a conversion cylinder is installed it can only be transfered through an FFL. The only way to transfer it without an FFL is to uninstall the conversion cylinder and ship it seperately. Then you are shipping an antique and parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horrible Heath Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 lots of good advice given so far. as per the 1911... adding a rifle stock to a pistol requires the pistol to become a SBR and requires a tax stamp and to be engraved with the manufactures information (you are the manufacturer - your name and city,state will be engraved) removing the stock does NOT change the fact that it is registered as a SBR, it does NOT require a tax stamp to remove the stock. once it becomes a SBR it requires a tax to transfer (sell or gift) to another person - if you remove the stock AND no longer possess the stock AND notify the ATF that it is no longer a SBR then they will remove it from the registry and it will be converted back to a "pistol" you can sell/gift it to another person without a transfer tax stamp. DO NOT give the buyer the stock. possession of the gun with the stock even if not attached is considered "readily convertible" and "constructive intent"/"intent to manufacture" as per the conversion of the cap and ball - unless you modify the breachblock you are fine, it is not a "firearm regulated by the GCA". if you want to do a gated conversion you are modifying the breachblock. per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution. per the ATF (yes, i know it says barrel and frame, but usually the barrel is what is changed on a SBR (think AR-15s) and not the stock) Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS? A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(. If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer. last thing as was stated before, be VERY careful. if you had to use it you could open yourself up to a lawsuit depending on your STATE laws. some states are just hunkydorey with it. some states will rip you apart. for you situation you may want to just buy a ruger LCR or a smith featherweight or use one of the newer self defense loads for the 45 colt in your SAA they have started pumping out with the popularity of the judge/governor pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 What about the "legal" 1858 Remington replica that has a stock already on it. It's a cap and ball, it will take a conversion cylinder, and it has a stock. Not legal to use in SASS, but. How about an 1898 Broom Handle Mauser with the attachable stock. The pistol hasn't been modified to receive the stock so is it therefore still a pistol? Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 What about the "legal" 1858 Remington replica that has a stock already on it. It's a cap and ball, it will take a conversion cylinder, and it has a stock. Not legal to use in SASS, but. How about an 1898 Broom Handle Mauser with the attachable stock. The pistol hasn't been modified to receive the stock so is it therefore still a pistol? Ike Broom handle Mausers are now considered Curios & Relics (C&R) by the ATF. I have seen some contradictory statements from them, but it is my understanding, if you have an original C96 Mauser and an original stock, you do not need to get a tax stamp. I would still contact the ATF to make sure. Where I have seen some real contradictions is in regard to mounting a repro stock on an original C96. I have seen letters from the ATF saying you can and some letters saying you can't. I'm not going to chance it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horrible Heath Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 What about the "legal" 1858 Remington replica that has a stock already on it. It's a cap and ball, it will take a conversion cylinder, and it has a stock. Not legal to use in SASS, but. How about an 1898 Broom Handle Mauser with the attachable stock. The pistol hasn't been modified to receive the stock so is it therefore still a pistol? Ike the way i read the law is the 58 remi with the stock, in cap and ball form, is an "antique firearm" and therefore not subject to the GCA of 68 so it cant be defined as a SBR, you may want to consult with an atf field office to verify. as long as you dont modify the breach block you SHOULD be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salt Flat Swindler Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Wow, no one has addressed the real issue with creating a short barreled rifle. A lot of the cap'n'ball guns have the option of a detachable shoulder stock. Those are fine to use as long as you have a cap'n'ball cylinder installed. If you have one of the drop in conversion cyclinders though and you install a shoulder stock, now you've created a short barrel rifle that entails the $200 regisitration fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddnews SASS# 24779 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I've researched and researched, and found no reliable answer. Unless I'm reading Brooklyn Slim's post incorrectly (and I apologize if I am), the real question isn't whether or not installing a cartridge cylinder in a BP revolver is legal. It is legal, period, at least in regard to federal law. The question is, however, is it then legal to attach a period-style shoulder stock to the same revolver, while it has its cartridge-firing cylinder in place? I think, but cannot confirm, that the answer to that question is "no, it is not legal to attach a shoulder stock to a replica cap and ball revolver that has a conversion cylinder installed, under NFA 1935." This would be the creation of a "short rifle" under the law. There are certain curio and relic pistol carbines that allow the legal attachment of shoulder stocks -- such as Lugers and Broomhandle Mausers. Installing a shoulder stock on a modern replica would not conform to the law, as I understand it. It is possible that possessing a shoulder stock, an 1860 Army Replica, and a conversion cylinder that fits the replica would be "constructive possession" and the possession would be illegal -- for example, you can legally own the parts to convert an M-1 Carbine to an M-2 (fully automatic) Carbine, but if you also own a carbine you are breaking the law,even if the parts are not installed. I have tried to find out if the same is true of owning a converted BP revolver and a period-style shoulder stock, but different sources have given me different answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 The best way to answer any of these questions is to talk to ATF. They are the ones who will know the proper interpretations of the laws since they enforce them. When talking to them though, get names and write them down with date called and info given. You may need this in the future. One never knows how locals interpret laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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