OOPS, you cocked the gun!

[Marauder SASS #13056]

We recently had a stage where you had to shoot the first 5 revolver shots through one window, move to another window to shoot the other five.

 

In the discussion of "what ifs", some said that if you mistakenly cock your pistol before moving that you merely shoot into the berm and move to the next window. (If you are shooting traditional or duelist style, that will just be a click, but will be a bang and scored as a miss for gunfighters.)

 

Then someone said that you had to ask permission of the T.O. before you fire into the berm.

 

I was going to ask about said issue as I thought the added discussion would be unwieldy if you were merely shooting into the berm. So looked it up in the handbook.

 

Page 21 (version 18.2):

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator (TO). (This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.

 

8. Once a revolver is cocked, the round under the hammer must be expended in order for it to be returned to a safe condition. Once a rifle is cocked, either the round under the hammer must be expended or the action opened in order for the rifle to be returned to a safe condition. Shotgun shells may be removed, if necessary, without penalty in order to return the firearm to a safe condition.

 

So from that, I'm figuring that you must have permission to "DE-COCK" but as I read it, no permission is required to fire into the berm...

 

Let me know if I am incorrect in that interpretation.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Maruader, in the example given, once the round has been put under the hammer, a procedural has been earned regardless of shooting style. If the second bank of targets can be safely shot, the round could be shot at the correct pistol target and if hit, avoid the miss. The shooter could also choose to fire the round into the berm, move to the second position and reload the fifth round to safely shoot all five targets from the correct position. The procedural remains regardless.

 

It appears that there is some misunderstanding about what de-cocking is. Firing the gun is not de-cocking. De-cocking is lowering the hammer slowly to avoid firing the gun. An example in which a shooter might ask permission to de-cock or fire a round downrange would be if after the buzzer the first gun was supposed to be rifle, but the shooter pulled and cocked a pistol instead. This is realized BEFORE a round goes down range, so the shooter stops. With a round under the hammer, the shooter must get permission from the TO to either send the round down range...or to de-cock. "Under the direct supervision" requires the TOs acknowledgement in an instructive or affirmative manner.

 

Shooters Handbook, page 21, Item 7.

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range. No gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator (TO). (This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.

 

Personally, in the situation of an incorrect gun cocked at the wrong time (before a round goes down range), I prefer that the TO quickly give instructions to the shooter as to what they prefer they do. In other words, I'll give them instruction to de-cock or fire down range before they have the opportunity to screw-up on their own.

 

As far as the question of receiving permission prior to firing into the berm, honestly if the shooter were to wait for the TO to give permission, depending on who the TO was, they might stand there with a cocked gun for a long time. They should not have to wait for the TO. If they know their legal options, why should they have to wait to see if the TO knows their options a well? They shouldn't.

[Grizzly Dave]

OK, I'll muddy the waters a bit...

 

I would say, following the miss flow chart, that the shooter could shoot any of the first five pistol targets, then move to the other window and shoot 4 out of the 5 there, and still get only a P.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You got it right. Firing that 6th shot from the wrong shooting position, as an intentional miss, gets you a miss and a P. (If a shooter had to ask the RO for permission to miss a target and hit a berm, we'd all be in for a long match).

 

If you can safely fire that sixth shot at the correct any revolver target, though, and can hit it, you only earn a P. With hammer(s) down on fired rounds, then safely move to the second window.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

(correction noted! And, as BDL discusses, using a fairly new allowance in the rules, you can reload to try to avoid being given the miss, too, if you handle it like the first instruction in this reply points out. That has to rank as perhaps one of the most obscure points of the SASS rulebook.)

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

How do you get a double post with a delay?

[Grizzly Dave]

How do you get a double post with a delay?

 

You must be posting gunfighter style!

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

You got it right. Firing that 6th shot from the wrong shooting position, as an intentional miss, gets you a miss and a P. (If a shooter had to ask the RO for permission to miss a target and hit a berm, we'd all be in for a long match).

 

If you can safely fire that sixth shot at the correct revolver target, though, and can hit it, you only earn a P. With hammer(s) down on fired rounds, then safely move to the second window.

 

Good luck, GJ

I should have quoted this in my first post.

Shooters Handbook, page 21, item 9

 

9. If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty. In this situation, if the shooter elects or is forced to miss an appropriate target due to unsafe angles or target availability, a round may be reloaded to avoid a miss penalty (the dreaded “Double Jeopardy” of a procedure and miss). This does not mean a shooter may reload a rifle or revolver at any other time to make up a miss. Unfired ejected rifle rounds may be replaced.

 

[Grizzly Dave]

OK, I'll muddy the waters a bit...

 

I would say, following the miss flow chart, that the shooter could shoot any of the first five pistol targets, then move to the other window and shoot 4 out of the 5 there, and still get only a P.

 

Buck, Mr RO III dude, what say you about my post above?

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

You must be posting gunfighter style!

Could be, but I swear I wasn't double discharging.

 

 

 

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

OK, I'll muddy the waters a bit...

 

I would say, following the miss flow chart, that the shooter could shoot any of the first five pistol targets, then move to the other window and shoot 4 out of the 5 there, and still get only a P.

I'd say the miss flow chart backs you up to the point that the shooter hit all the correct type of targets, but it'd get iffy when it came to the part asking, "Did the shooter gain a competitive advantage by shooting the targets in an incorrect order." Once it was recognized that a P would be earned, it could be argued that at that point if the shooter shot a target from the bank in fornt of the left window, they very well might be doing so to gain a competitive advantage. It would certainly be faster than reloading at the second position. The fact that an allowance is made to reload at the correct position to avoid double jeopardy, to me, is a pretty strong indication that correct targets are to be engaged, as much as possible, at the correct position to the best of the shooter's ability.

 

Would I call it? As of now, no. It could be argued that considering the P, there could never be a competitive advantage. Although I'm a black pin (RO Instructor), I'll admit to being in a constant learning curve. When split-hair calls are to be made, I'll leave that to the RO Committee (Pale Wolf being the Wire representative) for clarification...and learn.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Are we talking about a Gunfighter here? No one else should be able to get into this situation. They're only two options, both require pulling the trigger. Put one into the berm (TO knows your gonna do it), miss and a P or shoot the next correct target (P) then move.

 

Simply lowering the hammer is NEVER acceptable.

 

Coffinmaker

[Kid Raven]

I'd say the miss flow chart backs you up to the point that the shooter hit all the correct type of targets, but it'd get iffy when it came to the part asking, "Did the shooter gain a competitive advantage by shooting the targets in an incorrect order." Once it was recognized that a P would be earned, it could be argued that at that point if the shooter shot a target from the bank in fornt of the left window, they very well might be doing so to gain a competitive advantage. It would certainly be faster than reloading at the second position. The fact that an allowance is made to reload at the correct position to avoid double jeopardy, to me, is a pretty strong indication that correct targets are to be engaged, as much as possible, at the correct position to the best of the shooter's ability.

 

Would I call it? As of now, no. It could be argued that considering the P, there could never be a competitive advantage. Although I'm a black pin (RO Instructor), I'll admit to being in a constant learning curve. When split-hair calls are to be made, I'll leave that to the RO Committee (Pale Wolf being the Wire representative) for clarification...and learn.

Actually, after firing one round is the fastest time to load another round into your pistol. Flip the loading gate open and the empty hole is right there, as it was under the hammer before you cocked the pistol. Then cock the hammer and fire the 5 loaded rounds now in the pistol. Anytime we have a stage you have to load an extra round in your pistols at my local club, you're allowed to load that extra round after firing your first shot with that pistol, for this very reason.

[Iron Pony]

CC we had a pard do just this shooting traditional this past weekend. Five on three from the first position one then 5 on three from the second position through doors/windows of a long facade. He just got ahead of himself cocked the second gun at position one and wound up shooting the second pistol from position 1 too.

 

Not wanting to give myself the oppertunity to screw up I shot it double duelist.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

You can dump the round on an appropriate type target (in this case any pistol target)to avoid a miss. Once that sixth round is cocked, the P cannot be avoided.

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

Did I do right?

 

I was the TO at an Alabama State Match stage. At the start buzzer, the shooter went to the wrong location. Before the first round went down range, I stopped the shooter and I noted that his pistol was cocked. I gave the shooter permission to de-cock his pistol, which I observed. The shooter adjusted the cylinder to put an empty chamber under the hammer, which I verified. The shooter then restarted the stage without any penalties.

 

Honest answers please. You will not hurt my feelings.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Did I do right?

 

I was the TO at an Alabama State Match stage. At the start buzzer, the shooter went to the wrong location. Before the first round went down range, I stopped the shooter and I noted that his pistol was cocked. I gave the shooter permission to de-cock his pistol, which I observed. The shooter adjusted the cylinder to put an empty chamber under the hammer, which I verified. The shooter then restarted the stage without any penalties.

 

Honest answers please. You will not hurt my feelings.

 

 

Did good.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Did I do right?

 

I was the TO at an Alabama State Match stage. At the start buzzer, the shooter went to the wrong location. Before the first round went down range, I stopped the shooter and I noted that his pistol was cocked. I gave the shooter permission to de-cock his pistol, which I observed. The shooter adjusted the cylinder to put an empty chamber under the hammer, which I verified. The shooter then restarted the stage without any penalties.

 

Honest answers please. You will not hurt my feelings.

 

 

Did good.

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

Did I do right?

 

I was the TO at an Alabama State Match stage. At the start buzzer, the shooter went to the wrong location. Before the first round went down range, I stopped the shooter and I noted that his pistol was cocked. I gave the shooter permission to de-cock his pistol, which I observed. The shooter adjusted the cylinder to put an empty chamber under the hammer, which I verified. The shooter then restarted the stage without any penalties.

 

Honest answers please. You will not hurt my feelings.

Ya done good Birdgun.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Grizz, after sleeping on it, a luxury we don't have at a match, I'd have to say you're right. As you've seen, Possum Skinner says the same thing. I figure there's a good reason why these two items appear one after the other on page7 of RO1.

9. Always read the rulebook from the contestant's viewpoint. (you did)

10. Always give the contestant the benefit of doubt.

 

After some thought, I'd venture that the ability to reload to avoid a miss has more to do with allowing an otherwise clean shooter the ability to remain clean than it does shooting specific targets from specific locations. I can say that as a gunfighter, a pistol reload can be a rather intensive mental challenge that is affected by a number of things.

 

Birdgun, excellent job!

 

 

OK, I'll muddy the waters a bit...

 

I would say, following the miss flow chart, that the shooter could shoot any of the first five pistol targets, then move to the other window and shoot 4 out of the 5 there, and still get only a P.

 

 

You can dump the round on an appropriate type target (in this case any pistol target)to avoid a miss. Once that sixth round is cocked, the P cannot be avoided.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

C