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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

Loading BP subs

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Just a word of advice. If you are going to load for BP and are using subs, you really need to find Snakebite's conversion charts, especially if you are looking to be on the lean side of the smoke emitted from your rounds. It would be awfully embarrassing to get called on not making enough smoke after spending the $ to go to a "big" shoot. I'm not being a hard ass, just wanting to be fair to everyone.

 

Cheyenne

 

I thought I had it saved somewhere but can't find it,,

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Yep...as being one who is thinking about doing that very thing I think it would be good to have a look. Anyone got a link where we can look at this chart?

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I thot I had the info saved somewhere but I can't find it,,....

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CC...I did a search and found this from Capt. Baylor's website...is this what you were referring to?

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Subs load by volume, same as real black powder, do they not?

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J-bar, they do. However, the FC categories are by smoke equivalent. So, 10 grains of smokey powder X may make the same amount of smoke as the 15 grains of Goex standard load.

 

This level of measurement of smoke is a lot like defining pornography. I can't necessarily pinpoint the definition because things like humidity, sun angle, eyesight and such may all affect it. However, I'll know it when I see it.

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Branchwater, that is a good chart as the Capt does an excellent job. I am trying to locate the chart, if I dint dream it,

 

The point is, if you are unsure about your loads, you may need to make up some rounds using the SASS standard for minimum smoke.

 

Cheyenne

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I understand what y'all are saying, but I think if a shooter is concerned about not meeting minimum smoke requirements, then that shooter is missing the whole point of shooting a blackpowder category.

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Cheyenne;

 

I had a crash a while back and can't find the file on my testing data at the moment... I'm pretty sure that I have it on one of my backup storage devices, and will take a look around. The data on Cap Baylors site as to weight per volume of each powder is virtually the same data as mine. I suggest that everyone shooting BP get a Lee powder dip set. Then all you have to do is to just weight out 1 cc of what ever you are using, and set your powder drop to meet or exceed that number. I tested every powder in every cartridge with three different charges by volume. I'm sure that you remember when the committee was working on it. The testing took a long time to complete, but I think that it yeilded a easy, workable solution. There were many folks involved in the testing... and the judges never knew what powder or charge was being used. The results yeilded the 1cc standard load that we now use. I've heard some discussion about the fact that Goex Cowboy is no longer available.. and the standard now says 2F... the fact is, if any shooter is cutting it that close, then they need to be watched anyway.... IMO.

 

Bottom line is this... if you want to make sure that you are within the acceptable smoke range, then use at least 1 cc of ANY BP OR SUB. Going any lower than that might be cause for concern... I can guaratee that the serious BP shooters won't hesitate to challenge anyone shooting in a BP category who is not blowing smoke.

 

As for which powder smokes the most.... that's difficult.. the color of the smoke varies... but 777 smokes a lot. Because of that fact... if I were going to try to sneak the load down (which I wouldn't do), I would use 777 because of the smoke factor and it also yeilds more power. A full 38 case of 777 with the right bullet can break the max speed limit. I've not been able to even come close to that with BP.

 

Snakebite

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I use the rule book on my loads, 1cc or more for everything, no subs for me. Real BP is just easier to work with.

:FlagAm:

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I use the rule book on my loads, 1cc or more for everything, no subs for me. Real BP is just easier to work with.

:FlagAm:

Tuco....you are just a smokey kind of guy....I've run the timer when you are shooting that soot and I swear you earn a minor safety violation for air pollution on each stage :)

 

[but it is kinda cool seeing all that smoke though !!]

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Damnation....after all these years I've been shootin BP (and subs too), I thought the whole idea was to make as much smoke as possible. I love it when everybody starts to cough and yell "What the hell are you shootin" :wub::lol::blush:

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Thanks Snakebite. When I shoot BP i throw 11gr by weight of 777 2f, it fills the case to the bottom of my 125gr boolit in a 38sp case. A nice stout lode for a 38, tho it is fast enuff that I cant hear the clang off the targit as well....and nor du tha spotturs,,,,,and of course yu noze thit I don't e'er miss,,,;)

 

Had a fella tole me that 777 in a 38 short colt was sufficient,,,,,which is btw wat caused this thread....7,4 gr of 777,,,hmmmm as I recall your work before showed a min of 9 gr by wght for 777 as a min..

 

maybe iffn I slowt mine down a bit tha spotters cud differentiate between the boom and tha clang bettur....;)

 

 

Cheyenne

 

BTW, it may be time for a SG standard for the amount of smoke tuu....just sayin...

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...

BTW, it may be time for a SG standard for the amount of smoke tuu....just sayin...

 

Howdy CC,

The BP smoke standard is the same for ALL ammo used in a BP category...including SG.

Ref: RO2 p.9

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Howdy CC,

The BP smoke standard is the same for ALL ammo used in a BP category...including SG.

Ref: RO2 p.9

 

That is why there may be a need to have a separate one for SG,,, I know first hand that 18gr by wght of RS dunt wurk tuu good.....boof,,,,,,,,,,,,clang kinda slows yu down a bit....

 

 

tho most of the shooters that dont make much SG smoke dunt make much pistol or riful smoke eethur.....;(

 

CC

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PW is right. Any BP shooter who is not producing a cloud of smoke, must be shooting something other than BP/Sub in the shotshell. Even the lightest load possible of BP/Sub in a shotgun will produce a cloud of smoke....unless of course it is on top of some smokeless powder!! (illegal)

 

Snakebite

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Snakebite,

 

Did you test or notice how the level of smoke created by a given load was affected by the amount of crimp, if any? Additionally, how is the level of smoke affected by the weight of the bullet, if any? If I remember, the "old" standard included test round bullet weight, lube, and medium crimp. Just wonder how all that affects things.

 

Also, I did find this chart with the credit going to Snakebite:

 

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=12.0

 

Copied here for simplicity:

 

Volume………………1cc………….0.7cc…………. 0.5cc

Goex Cowboy …………15.0gr…. 10.5gr …….7.5gr

Goex 2F ………………….15.1………….10.6………….7.6

Goex 3F……………………14.5………….10.2………….7.3

Goex Clearshot 3F………15.0………….10.5………….7.5

Goex Pinnacle 2F……….13.2………….9.1………….6.5

Goex Pinnacle 3F……….12.9………….8.9………….6.3

Hodgdon Pyrodex RS….10.5………….7.3………….5.2

Hodgdon Pyrodex Select 2F….10.0….6.8………….4.9

Hodgdon 777 2F……...11.6………….8.1………….5.7

Hodgdon 777 3F……...11.2………….7.8………….5.5

American Pioneer 2F…12.8………….8.8………….6.3

American Pioneer 3F .12.6………….8.6………….6.2

Swiss 1 1/2F……………15.0………….10.5………….7.5

KIK 2F……………………14.0………….9.6………….6.8

Elephant 2F……………16.2………….11.1………….7.9

Elephant 3F……………15.5………….10.7………….7.6

 

Is this the chart you were thinking of CC?

 

While this chart does compare weight of given powders to volume, it does not compare the amount of smoke created by each for the given load. ie, powder X at 1 CC creates more/less smoke than standard. I agree, though. I'm only shooting the goex ffg, so I cannot really speak for the amount of smoke created by the subs, but the conversation has created an interest in scientific study!

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I understand what y'all are saying, but I think if a shooter is concerned about not meeting minimum smoke requirements, then that shooter is missing the whole point of shooting a blackpowder category.

 

+1

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Snakebite,

 

Did you test or notice how the level of smoke created by a given load was affected by the amount of crimp, if any? Additionally, how is the level of smoke affected by the weight of the bullet, if any? If I remember, the "old" standard included test round bullet weight, lube, and medium crimp. Just wonder how all that affects things.

 

Also, I did find this chart with the credit going to Snakebite:

 

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=12.0

 

Copied here for simplicity:

 

Volume………………1cc………….0.7cc…………. 0.5cc

Goex Cowboy …………15.0gr…. 10.5gr …….7.5gr

Goex 2F ………………….15.1………….10.6………….7.6

Goex 3F……………………14.5………….10.2………….7.3

Goex Clearshot 3F………15.0………….10.5………….7.5

Goex Pinnacle 2F……….13.2………….9.1………….6.5

Goex Pinnacle 3F……….12.9………….8.9………….6.3

Hodgdon Pyrodex RS….10.5………….7.3………….5.2

Hodgdon Pyrodex Select 2F….10.0….6.8………….4.9

Hodgdon 777 2F……...11.6………….8.1………….5.7

Hodgdon 777 3F……...11.2………….7.8………….5.5

American Pioneer 2F…12.8………….8.8………….6.3

American Pioneer 3F .12.6………….8.6………….6.2

Swiss 1 1/2F……………15.0………….10.5………….7.5

KIK 2F……………………14.0………….9.6………….6.8

Elephant 2F……………16.2………….11.1………….7.9

Elephant 3F……………15.5………….10.7………….7.6

 

Is this the chart you were thinking of CC?

 

While this chart does compare weight of given powders to volume, it does not compare the amount of smoke created by each for the given load. ie, powder X at 1 CC creates more/less smoke than standard. I agree, though. I'm only shooting the goex ffg, so I cannot really speak for the amount of smoke created by the subs, but the conversation has created an interest in scientific study!

 

No tha's not tha one,,,Snakebite did an extensive amount of research and came up wit comparable min loads for (as I recall) all of the subs being used. Only one I can remember was for 777 2f, it was 9gr by wgt for that, I remember that because I have a bunch of 777 that I got at a bargain price.

 

cc

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Easy for me to remember....fill the case full enough to get a little compression when I seat the bullet. Works every time. :lol:

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Easy for me to remember....fill the case full enough to get a little compression when I seat the bullet. Works every time. :lol:

 

+1

 

That's exactly it. If you have to use filler you don't have enough powder.

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Easy for me to remember....fill the case full enough to get a little compression when I seat the bullet. Works every time. :lol:

+2

:huh: I have to admit... during the lean times I add grits... but not that much.

Just enough to get me more loads out of a bottle of powder.

APP is smokey no matter how you do it

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Goex Clearshot 3F………15.0………….10.5………….7.5

Interesting ... someone has a low badge number :D

GOEX CLEAR SHOT

1999 - 2001

2001: GOEX, Inc. at their Minden, LA powder plant, scale up the Clear Shot manufacturing process in the Spring of 2001. On Oct. 31, 2001, a fire and series of explosions destroy the Clear Shot building and production line. This effectively ended the Clear Shot production. If one is a can collector, Powder Inc packages Skirmish powder with a paper label on original Clear Shot cans. And if ya want to see smoke ... shoot Skirmish!

 

What's more interesting - all the charges of Clear Shot, a fruit sugar based powder - produce the same smoke as Swiss 1.5Fg!

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When I shoot BP i throw 11gr by weight of 777 2f, it fills the case to the bottom of my 125gr boolit in a 38sp case

 

How does that measure up volume wise? I have been loading 16 grains by volume in my .38's with success.

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I have really come to like the large caliber - small case rounds, using APP for making smoke in cartridge guns. In my mind this duplicates the pre-1873 ammunition that was most commonly available for revolvers while the APP actually should make a slightly more volumetric cloud, based on common lore, from those cases. Remember, those Henry and '66 repeaters used the small case '44 cartridges up til '73 and I think I have heard that most of the big bore Colt conversions were in those same cases? Did Colt chamber any of the early SAA '73 revolvers for the Henry CF cartridge? At any rate, AJs 45special and the 44Russian will offer one a round as close to those actually chambered for those earliest bp guns as we can get and the volume will run around 25grs. When one gets up to the later era larger case loads of around 40grs or more, you are talking loads that were not universally popular, even back when great grampaw hitched up the wagon to go into town!

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