.44-40 bullet diameter

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

I found a Uberti 1873 .44-40 rifle with a 24" half octagonal/ round barrel with a short magazine tube at a local gun show. Some how it followed home. I plan to use the rifle in our local 100 pistol caliber side matches. So I want to develope the most accurate load. Some of my friends who also use this caliber in Uberti Henrys for Civil War skirmishing, claim that a .430 bullet is the way to go for top accuracy.

 

After reading several reloading manuals, I am getting conflicting information. The Lyman cast bullet manual I have says to use the .430 diameter bullet, the Speer manual and one other lists a .428 diameter bullet. Some cowboy shooters I have spoken to claim that many manufacturers have gotten lazy and just use the same diameter barrel for both their .44 mag/.44 special guns and their .44-40s. This Uberti has a 5 digit serial number that begins with a 9. Do any of you know for sure what diameter the bore on this rifle is?

 

I do know that the best way to determine the exact diameter is to "slug" the barrel. I will do this, if necessary, but right now I just want to load a few rounds and see how it shoots. Any information would be helpful.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

.429 will work in all of them Eye-talian .44 WCF guns, until you get the barrel slugged. Lead bullets are pretty forgiving, and we don't shoot top end pressures anyway.

 

Uberti claims the groove diameter is .427 for their current production. Measurements on recent guns don't always support their claims.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

I've always used a 428 or 429 bullet in mine with terrific results.

--Dawg

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

.429

 

 

Jefro

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Over the years, groove diameter for 44-40 has varied. The 19th Century standard was .427. More recently, many manufacturers are using .429 barrels. I have five rifles chambered for 44-40 and I have slugged all of them. My 100 year old Winchester 1892 and Marlin 1894 slug out at .427. So does my Uberti made '73 which was made in the 1980s. The odd one is my Winchester 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine, made in 1918, it slugs out at .429.

 

But my Uberti made Henry, which I bought new about three years ago slugs out at .429.

 

If you go to the Cimarron website and go to their data page, you will see that they list the groove diameter for Uberti rifles chambered for 44-40 as .429.

 

I'd be glad to send you my handy dandy guide to slugging barrels, but I'll bet you will find out your barrel is .429.

 

Standard cast bullet logic is to use bullets .001 larger in diameter than groove diameter. So following that logic, a .430 bullet will be perfect for a .429 44-40 barrel.

 

The thing is, sometimes you will run into a tight chamber. Loading 'fat bullets' like .429 or .430 for a 44-40 barrel with a tight chamber can result in expanding the neck enough to make it tough to chamber them if the chamber is tight. I found out with my .427 diameter '73 barrel that it shot just fine with both .427 and .428 bullets. .429 bullets shot fine too, but they tended to not want to chamber easily. So for years I shot .427 bullets in my old Winchester, Marlin, and Uberti '73 with their .427 barrels.

 

When I bought the Henry with its .429 barrel I upped my bullet size to .428. I did not go up to .429 because of the tight chamber situation. I never even considered .430 bullets. I only shoot Black Powder out of these rifles and I cast my own dead soft, pure lead Mav-Dutchman bullets. I size them all to .428 now. Soft lead .428 bullets will bump up in the barrel, filling up the .429 rifling just fine. And they will squeeze down in the .427 barrels too.

 

So short of slugging your barrel, which will probably turn out to be .429 anyway, you might want to get a few .428 and .429 bullets and load up a few, and see which shoot best. Be sure to observe carefully when you chamber them if any are reluctant to chamber. The mechanical advantage of the lever over the bolt will probably shove them in anyway, but you might want to stay with a bullet that does not quite expand the case neck enough to be stubborn to chamber.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

I use Winchestr brass and .428 bullets... but different rifles have different dimensions.

 

Pretty much I recommend you sart with 0.428 and see how it shoots for accuracy. Also note how easily the loaded cartridiges will chamber with the brand of brass you are using. Different brass has different nech thickness and the rifles can be tightly chambered.

 

Then try some bullets sized to 0.429 to see how accurate they are and how easy the loaded cartridges chamber.

 

I don't recommend 0.427 in a Uberti, nor anything as large a 0.430.

[Charlie Whiskers]

I have a 73 that I bought in 03.I've used Factory Winchester and Ultra Max cowboy loads and they shot fine.Started reloading a few years back and have used everything from 427-430 and they all worked fine.All I use now are 430's from Missouri Bullet company and have no complaints about using them.Use the same in my 75 Remington's too.

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

Thanks for all your insights! I currently have a couple of boxes of .430 from Missouri Bullet company. I'm going to try them first just because I have them on hand. I do plan on getting a sample pack of their .429 to make a comparison.

[Iron Pony]

TN I started shooting and casting the 44 at .427 years ago to accomodate tight chambers in a various rifles and revovers. Now I shoot the MBC 44 cowboy bullet sized at 430 for smokeless practice but still shoot .427 cast dead soft with BP. Plus we sell a bunch of them in that size, 427, to lots of folks to make sure they fit in everything with any type of brass. Like Driftwood said the soft lead will bump up nicely and from my own experience so far there have been no accuracy problems. See how they shoot and go with what works then when you get the chance get a couple 452-454 pure lead balls from a cap and ball buddy to slug the bore.

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

Slugging a barrel isn't that big a deal and then you will know where you are.

 

You could crush one of your .430 bullets slightly to bump it up a little bigger and go for it.

 

Here is the method I use.

 

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

 

Good luck!!

 

Chancy

[Fairshake]

I would try that .430 bullet down your barrel before loading it up with powder. I have 4 guns in 44-40 and they all check out at .427 which is the correct size for the caliber.

Marlin decided when they started to chamber some rifles for the caliber to build them the same as the 44 magnum at .430. They save on equipment cost and don't care to be correct.

They have some Colts that were built with bad chambers and correct barrels or vise versa. Read some of Mike Venturino books and his comments on the caliber.

I would not shoot any bullet until I slugged the barrel. Use a egg shaped fishing weight and plenty of oil in the barrel when doing this. To find the correct size make sure you have a micrometer to check the size of the weight. I would try to find some in the .440 area. The pard above that said .452-.454 was thinking about 45 COLT and not 44-40.

My sizing die for my Star was made by Lathesmith and is at .4285 which shoots great in my .427 guns. I use a 20-1 alloy and a Accurate Mould bullet that I designed by making changes to the Lyman 427098 mould. I had Tom deepen the lube grooves and make them with square corners instead of the rounded ones made today. The .4285 die is checked using pin gauges. This size allows the bullet to be concentric without damaging the lube grooves.

[Ricochet Roy, SASS #71853]

.429

 

 

Jefro

 

 

+ 1 For my Colt SAA's & my Uberti 73

 

Roy

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

I was already using .430" bullets in my .44 Russian and .44 Colt cartridges so I just used the same bullets in my recently acquired, but 14 year old, .44-40 Uberti border rifle. They work fine.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

The pard above that said .452-.454 was thinking about 45 COLT and not 44-40.

 

Iron Pony was talking about .452-.454 round lead balls for slugging a 44-40 barrel. They will work fine, I have done it. I have also slugged 44-40 barrels with all kinds of hard cast bullets.

 

I can't help you date your rifle by the Serial Number, but here is a link to a page that will help you date it by the proof mark. The first two letters in the proof mark will tell you what year it was proofed at the government proof house in Italy.

 

Proof Marks

 

As I said earlier, the 19th Century standard for 44-40 rifling groove dimensions was .427. However of late Uberti seems to have been rifling their 44-40 barrels at .429. As I said earlier, that is the groove diameter of my Henry, which was new about three years ago or so. Other posters on this board have reported similar findings for recently manufactured Uberti 44-40 rifles.

 

I certainly would try shoving one of those .430 bullets down the barrel before I loaded any up and shot them. I would also make up a couple of dummies without powder or primer and see how they chambered. I would also use the brand of brass that has the thinnest necks if trying to stuff a .430 bullet into an Uberti 44-40 chamber. Stick with Winchester or Starline brass. Winchester used to be the thinnest, but the Starline brass I bought recently has measured up just as thin. With the thinnest brass you will have the least trouble chambering ammo with 'fat' bullets if your chambers are tight.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Some cowboy shooters I have spoken to claim that many manufacturers have gotten lazy and just use the same diameter barrel for both their .44 mag/.44 special guns and their .44-40s.

 

The trend is toward standardization (not laziness, as the quote implies), something which folks did not care too much about in the late 1800's, even if (Eli) Whitney, Hall and North had all shown that standardization was a good thing, back about 1825.

 

But it is a GOOD THING that modern .44 caliber gun makers are gradually moving to the .429 diameter groove diameter, which allows jacketed .429 and lead .430 slugs, to work well in almost all .44 guns. Ok, so they are standardizing the barrel bore and rifling depth. Once the manufacturers all learn how to cut chambers that are realistically sized and have a proper neck diameter to hold cases loaded with those .430 bullets, then .44-40 shooters will be in a state of Nirvana. Until then, we all fiddle around a little bit until we find what works for each gun. And sometimes, chamber necks need to be opened up with a correctly-made reamer.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Trailrider #896]

Howdy, Pard,

If you do elect to use .430" bullets, you may want to go to Winchester brass, as it has the thinnest walls at the neck. I use .430" commercially hard-cast bullets in my 20-odd year old Uberti M1860 Henry, Rossi '92 in .44-40 and one in .44 Mangle-em (aka .44 Extra Long Russian), and various Ruger OM Vaqueros in .44-40 (once Ruger got their chamber dimensions straightened out...though my Vaqueros still have .425" throats). BTW, the bullets squeeze down going through the tight throats, and then expand out again in the barrel. Hard cast bullets (BHN 17-22+) are required to insure reexpansion, as the internal stresses in the metal matrix don't have time to dissipate going through the throats.

 

Historically, I've seen original Winchester '73's with barrel groove diameters as large as .434"! NOT worn appreciably, they were probably the first barrels cut with a new tool bit in the rifling machine. Unfortunately, the chambers aren't quite big enough to take bullets that large, so the alternative solution for any semblance of accuracy is a soft, possibly hollow-base bullet and black powder to bump up a .430" bullet.

 

Ride careful this weekend, Pards! There may be varmints tryin' to cash in on the 10th anniversary of 9/11/01! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

I'm shooting .428's at 12 hardness-- 2 ruger vaqueros opened to .429, a winchester 92 or a uberti 66. They shoot fine at up to 50 yards--- have not tried them further.

[Box Herder, SASS 73857]

Make it easy-

 

.427 dead soft Big Lube bullet under a case full of Goex 2F- crimp to suit and shoot.

 

Deadly accurate and also fun when the posse make comments- Do It Again Dammmit

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

More good info! I hadn't thought about brass thickness. I went through similar trials and tribulations to finally get a good .45-70 load for my Sharps. Testing different loads was a good excuse to get more range time with the buffalo rifle. This is hard work, but somebody has to do it.

[Fairshake]

Driftwood, Your statement that .427 was the standard for the 44-40 in the 19th century is not quite correct. In fact they have plenty of evidence that it took some time for it to come about. Most of the original guns had bores of .425 and that was considered correct. Read about the 1873 in Shooting Lever Guns Of The Old West and you will find that through research, Mike Venturino found this to be the case.This is not gossip around the wood stove talk but fact.

If you happen to have any of the old Ideal loading tools that came with the rifles or were purchased at a later date you will have that proof in your hand. I had several of them at one time but I still have one that is complete with the decapper which is rare. The tool allowed the owner to load his own ammunition while in the woods and away from any source to purchase. They had a sizer and decapper and a priming section to reprime. They also had a single mould cavity and bullet sizer. They had the seater and crimp also. My bullet mould on mine is pristine and drops perfect 42798 bullets at .425 with 20-1 alloy. After allowing to cool I sized them through the sizer and they measure.425 That same bullet is than one made today by Lyman and is known as the 427098. As far as my statement about the lead balls of 45 caliber size, I was and have been for most of my 64 years of the thought that a ball that was .440 would go through a hole of .430 a lot easier than one that .454 If you want to push and strain that is your business and it bothers me not. Sometimes that horse will die before it drinks that water.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

I have a Cimarron/Uberti 44-40 Carbine with a 5 digit S/N starting with a 7. The bore slugs at .428". I shoot .429" bullets. I found .430" to be a tad tight on chambering.

 

I called Cimarron and they claim to have .429" bores on the 44-40's.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

Driftwood, Your statement that .427 was the standard for the 44-40 in the 19th century is not quite correct. In fact they have plenty of evidence that it took some time for it to come about. Most of the original guns had bores of .425 and that was considered correct. Read about the 1873 in Shooting Lever Guns Of The Old West and you will find that through research, Mike Venturino found this to be the case.This is not gossip around the wood stove talk but fact.

If you happen to have any of the old Ideal loading tools that came with the rifles or were purchased at a later date you will have that proof in your hand. I had several of them at one time but I still have one that is complete with the decapper which is rare. The tool allowed the owner to load his own ammunition while in the woods and away from any source to purchase. They had a sizer and decapper and a priming section to reprime. They also had a single mould cavity and bullet sizer. They had the seater and crimp also. My bullet mould on mine is pristine and drops perfect 42798 bullets at .425 with 20-1 alloy. After allowing to cool I sized them through the sizer and they measure.425 That same bullet is than one made today by Lyman and is known as the 427098. As far as my statement about the lead balls of 45 caliber size, I was and have been for most of my 64 years of the thought that a ball that was .440 would go through a hole of .430 a lot easier than one that .454 If you want to push and strain that is your business and it bothers me not. Sometimes that horse will die before it drinks that water.

 

 

If you buy 44-40 jacketed bullets from Winchester or Remington the size for the Winchester's are .426", the Remingtons .427". I have both.

 

The Original's had tighter bore's on the 44-40's than we have thought.

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

To help determine the year of manufacture, I checked my rifle for a two letter proof mark, like Driftwood suggested with his link, and there are none to be found on my rifle. There were two other proof marks on the receiver, but neither of them contains two letters. The Uberti 1873 in question has a 5 digit serial number starting with 9 and there are no letters before the numerals like the ones on my other 73s.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Read about the 1873 in Shooting Lever Guns Of The Old West and you will find that through research, Mike Venturino found this to be the case.This is not gossip around the wood stove talk but fact.

 

Fairshake, we have had this discussion before. Page 151 of Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West:

 

"Many early Winchesters had oversized bores. Nominally they are supposed to be .427. However I once owned one that slugged .433 inch in the grooves. Therefore, with the .427 inch bullets recommended by most reloading manuals it simply would not shoot accurately because the bullets tumbled in flight. Marlin Model 1894s can also be guilty of oversize bores. If all other factors are equal, almost all guns will shoot accurately with lead alloy bullets if the bullet starts out about .001 inch over the barrel's groove diameter."

 

What Mike is saying is that the standard was .427, but in reality they varied all over the place. If Mike says it, that is good enough for me.

 

As I stated earlier, or maybe in another post, my 1894 vintage Model 1892, my 1895 vintage Marlin Model 1894, and my 1980s vintage Uberti 1873 all have barrels that I have slugged and they measure .427. My 1918 vintage Winchester Model 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine and my 2007 or so Uberti Henry slugged at .429.

[George Rodgers]

I have a 66 and 73 uberti and also a marlin. They all slug at 429. I shoot mostly 429 billeted because of local availability. I also shoot 430 when available and 427 if I can't find anything else.

 

At sass ranges almost anything will work good.

[Trailrider #896]

If you buy 44-40 jacketed bullets from Winchester or Remington the size for the Winchester's are .426", the Remingtons .427". I have both.

 

The Original's had tighter bore's on the 44-40's than we have thought.

 

In the 1970's Remington Jacketed bullets for .44-40 were .425"; Winchester JFSP were .427". Original Remington M1875's supposedly had .425" groove barrels. I never measured one, but an 1880's vintage Colt's Frontier Six Shooter I measured had a .427" groove barrel, but the chamber throats were .425"!

 

There is nothing like a good standard... And the .44-40 has nothing like a good standard!

 

Remember 9/11/01! God rest those who perished in the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and Flight 93! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless and Keep the United States of America!

 

Your humble servant,

[Fairshake]

Trairider, I have been aware of the difference in jacked bullets for a while now. I worked in a gun store in the 70's and was not interested in the 44-40 caliber as I was getting ready for a LEO job. I wish that I had some of those early bullets so that I could prove my point.

Driftwood, we have had this conversation before. I read everything that Mike prints and I was sure that the book had the information in it. I own all the released copies of each book and will have to look further. At 64 and getting older each day, it seems that this is a more common issue. I am big enough to say that I made a mistake on which book the info is in. My loading tool is not a figment of my imangeanation how ever and it has been pin guage checked at .425 It was more than likley made for one of them Remington's that Trailrider spoke of.