Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I recently saw a shooter who got to the ULT with a spent shell in the chamber of her rifle. Turns out the case split while shooting and the friction was too much for the extractor to handle. She was awarded a MSV. Is there any way the penalty could be avoided? (I think I know the answer, I just want to share information.) Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yeah. Look in the chamber when ya finish shooting. Declare a malfunction before ya shoot the next gun. If it didn't FEEL right when levered open, shooter coulda looked.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Declare a malfunction before setting down any rifle...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Declare a malfunction before setting down any rifle...... I knew a guy who use to do that... he was a real ???????. But then, everyone already knew it! Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yeah. Look in the chamber when ya finish shooting. Declare a malfunction before ya shoot the next gun. If it didn't FEEL right when levered open, shooter coulda looked.... AJ, Would you feel comfortable doing this if your 97 failed to eject a hull? What about a hull in a double? Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I accept a certain amount of ruh-rohs as part of the game. And I consider this situation to be a ruh-roh. If the RO wants to award a safety violation, well... That's his prerogative and I'd respect the decision and keep having fun the rest of the day. Personally, I think it's overkill, but not something that's worth getting my girdle in a bind over. How to be sure you avoid penalties? Stay at home and don't play the game. Be safe. Have fun. All other rules are ancillary to these two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I accept a certain amount of ruh-rohs as part of the game. And I consider this situation to be a ruh-roh. If the RO wants to award a safety violation, well... That's his prerogative and I'd respect the decision and keep having fun the rest of the day. Personally, I think it's overkill, but not something that's worth getting my girdle in a bind over. How to be sure you avoid penalties? Stay at home and don't play the game. Be safe. Have fun. All other rules are ancillary to these two. Yeah, this is kind of what I was thinking. When I'm in the middle of a stage I'm in a bit of a rush. For that reason I do NOT take the time to "inspect" every firearm after I've emptied it. If one ends up having a spent shell/hull left in it due to a malfunction oh well, that's the price you pay for playing the game. Accept the penalty and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 AJ, Would you feel comfortable doing this if your 97 failed to eject a hull? What about a hull in a double? Fillmore Don't think so, you at least have to attempt to remove, rack the lever, rack the action, grab the hull...etc.. I accept a certain amount of ruh-rohs as part of the game. And I consider this situation to be a ruh-roh. If the RO wants to award a safety violation, well... That's his prerogative and I'd respect the decision and keep having fun the rest of the day. Personally, I think it's overkill, but not something that's worth getting my girdle in a bind over. How to be sure you avoid penalties? Stay at home and don't play the game. Be safe. Have fun. All other rules are ancillary to these two. I agree, can't handle the rules stay home, a ruh-roh will happen Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Sure, it can be avoided! Get a new reloader!!! Check your ammo before loading any of your guns, several times! I see this happen tooo much. Some splits will eject ok, but you know it by the sound and weakness of the shot. Laziness, it is something to fight off. I know a number of people that reload even cracked brass, even a slight crack at the mouth of the brass can be come a real problem. Check your ammo at home, and then right before you load it into the gun. All guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bo bean 61280 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 we had a guy that finished with his shotgun, went picked up rifle, got to unloading table saw a empty in shotgun, laid rifle down and cleared shotgun. no call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 we had a guy that finished with his shotgun, went picked up rifle, got to unloading table saw a empty in shotgun, laid rifle down and cleared shotgun. no call Did he release the shotgun? Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Sure, it can be avoided! Get a new reloader!!! Check your ammo before loading any of your guns, several times! I see this happen tooo much. Some splits will eject ok, but you know it by the sound and weakness of the shot. Laziness, it is something to fight off. I know a number of people that reload even cracked brass, even a slight crack at the mouth of the brass can be come a real problem. Check your ammo at home, and then right before you load it into the gun. All guns. I had a .45 Colt case split on the second firing, from the mouth all the way to the web. There was nothing unusual about the recoil or report. My first indication anything was wrong, was when I had to pound the case out of the cylinder. Factory cowboy cartridges reloaded once with a similarly mild load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I had a .45 Colt case split on the second firing, from the mouth all the way to the web. There was nothing unusual about the recoil or report. My first indication anything was wrong, was when I had to pound the case out of the cylinder. Factory cowboy cartridges reloaded once with a similarly mild load. Apparently you're lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Is anyone else seeing the real issue here? It is clear that the MSV for an empty is not modifying behavior. It is treated as a random penalty that one just puts up with. Either shooter behavior needs to be modified so that most if not all shooters clear their guns on the clock by advancing the empty brass penalty to DQ. or Remove the penalty for the empty. Currently it is a safety penalty for something everyone does. Are we being unsafe or masochistic? I think the feller declaring malfunction on every stage is the sane one. Cheers, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Is anyone else seeing the real issue here? It is clear that the MSV for an empty is not modifying behavior. Disagree It is treated as a random penalty that one just puts up with. I disagree. Either shooter behavior needs to be modified so that most if not all shooters clear their guns on the clock by advancing the empty brass penalty to DQ. Disagree.or Remove the penalty for the empty. Nope Currently it is a safety penalty for something everyone does. Are we being unsafe or masochistic? I think the feller declaring malfunction on every stage is the sane one. This is one case that I would award a SOG if the shooter just blindly declared a malfunction after shooting each firearm in the attempt to avoid the penalty of an empty on the carrier or action. Cheers, BJT System and rules as stand work well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Read post #7 and think. System and rules as stand work well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ejecting spent shells is part of the proper function of a rifle. Knowing the condition of the ejector helps. Using only known good brass helps. SOME FOLKS keep some "match brass" for their rifles segregated, or use new brass. Others just run wide open with their worst brass (especially at lost brass matches) and hope the gods are with them. In the end, there are lots of ways to earn a penalty, from the gunsmithing bench to the reloading bench to actual shooting. keeping all the balls in the air is what makes juggling a challenge..... FWIW the shotgun is different deal. A SXS you know what it takes to get em clear and always have to look. A '97, well, by their nature yer playing with the angels whenever ya try and go fast with one. When they work, it's a thing of beauty, but Sooooooooooooo many ways to train wreck.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Is anyone else seeing the real issue here? It is clear that the MSV for an empty is not modifying behavior. It is treated as a random penalty that one just puts up with. Either shooter behavior needs to be modified so that most if not all shooters clear their guns on the clock by advancing the empty brass penalty to DQ. or Remove the penalty for the empty. Currently it is a safety penalty for something everyone does. Are we being unsafe or masochistic? I think the feller declaring malfunction on every stage is the sane one. Cheers, BJT Really? Everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 BJT: "I think the feller declaring malfunction on every stage is the sane one." Blastmaster: "This is one case that I would award a SOG if the shooter just blindly declared a malfunction after shooting each firearm in the attempt to avoid the penalty of an empty on the carrier or action." To earn a SOG a shooter must do two things. 1. Intentionally fail to fully engage the stage. 2. Do so for competitive advantage. Our declarative shooter can be found guilty of #1. Rules require that the shooter clear the firearm before it leaves his hands. If the shooter has not done this, he has not fully engaged the stage. Why did the shooter fail to clear the firearm? Because it is faster, for competitive advantage. The SOG is appropriate. That reasoning applies to every shooter who has left an empty round on the carrier. Careful Blastmaster, it could be raining SOGs and you are the rain maker! Cheers, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Apologies, exceptions for some slow old farts and those who do not shoot for time. How about 95%? Cheers, BJT Really? Everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 To earn a SOG a shooter must do two things. 1. Intentionally fail to fully engage the stage. 2. Do so for competitive advantage. Our declarative shooter can be found guilty of #1. Rules require that the shooter clear the firearm before it leaves his hands. If the shooter has not done this, he has not fully engaged the stage. Why did the shooter fail to clear the firearm? Because it is faster, for competitive advantage. The SOG is appropriate. That reasoning applies to every shooter who has left an empty round on the carrier. WRONG! Only if he/she did so intentionally! Careful Blastmaster, it could be raining SOGs and you are the rain maker! Cheers, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 BJT, on 17 August 2011 - 01:01 PM, said: To earn a SOG a shooter must do two things. 1. Intentionally fail to fully engage the stage. 2. Do so for competitive advantage. Our declarative shooter can be found guilty of #1. Rules require that the shooter clear the firearm before it leaves his hands. If the shooter has not done this, he has not fully engaged the stage. Why did the shooter fail to clear the firearm? Because it is faster, for competitive advantage. The SOG is appropriate. That reasoning applies to every shooter who has left an empty round on the carrier. Reply "WRONG! Only if he/she did so intentionally!" Careful Blastmaster, it could be raining SOGs and you are the rain maker! Cheers, BJT __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The SOG is not for leaving the round on the carrier, it is for not clearing the gun. That is a shooter choice, to clear it or not. When it is not cleared, it is to save time, for a better score, giving competitive advantage. Cheers, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I got caught up in this about a month and a half ago.. My thread was about an extractor on my '66.. I got to the loading table with lever open. and all ten rounds fired... My rifle failed to extract... My fault nobody elses... The loading table officer told me to report MSV to score keeper.. I did... RO (who I found out was wrong on this wire) said no.. it's a gun malfunction.. I hadn't laid it down on the loading table.. I usually don't lay it down till I rack the lever.. so the rifle was still in my control.. but I know I did lay it down action open during the stage.. rifle was not shot last. OK I got a break.. didn't ask for it but got one... I'd have taken my MSV (been upset with myself) and lived with it... My problem .. nobody elses. Rance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Apparently you're lazy. Yeah, but my point was that- uh... HEY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yeah, but my point was that- uh... HEY! Don't worry, I'm in the same boat. So far, based on this thread, I'm lazy and I'm gonna get a SOG penalty after every stage. I LOVE the Wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ya know what? I just noticed that if you are a bit dyslexic and transpose a few letters... Your alias is Silly Phlim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ya know what? I just noticed that if you are a bit dyslexic and transpose a few letters... Your alias is Silly Phlim You been talking to my wife, ain't ya? (Or pretty much anybody that's ever met me. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Honest Slim, I didn't know she was your wife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 This years State match. First day 2nd stage. Got to the unloading table, racked the lever and flys a spent brass! I have NEVER restated the rifle without opening the action. Neither the TO or the Spotters gave a yell, "open the action!". How did the empty brass get in there. I found the Keeper of the Score and added a MS. The rest of the match I double check when I finished shooting the rifle. At the next local match...dad burn blast it all... Same thing happened! Another MS! And I know I racked the lever on that last shot. I suspect the extractor didn't catch the last round(s). WD 40 the daylights out of the extractor notch on the barrel. Well see if that cures it. If it doesn't then perhaps I should more up the annual '66 cleaning a few years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 This years State match. First day 2nd stage. Got to the unloading table, racked the lever and flys a spent brass! I have NEVER restated the rifle without opening the action. Neither the TO or the Spotters gave a yell, "open the action!". How did the empty brass get in there. I found the Keeper of the Score and added a MS. The rest of the match I double check when I finished shooting the rifle. At the next local match...dad burn blast it all... Same thing happened! Another MS! And I know I racked the lever on that last shot. I suspect the extractor didn't catch the last round(s). WD 40 the daylights out of the extractor notch on the barrel. Well see if that cures it. If it doesn't then perhaps I should more up the annual '66 cleaning a few years... Wait. You mean you finished shooting your rifle and laid it down without first checking to make sure the chamber was empty? And you did this deliberately to gain a competitive advantage? Better go back to the keeper of the score and add a SOG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Dang right, them stinkin southern gamers Wait. You mean you finished shooting your rifle and laid it down without first checking to make sure the chamber was empty? And you did this deliberately to gain a competitive advantage? Better go back to the keeper of the score and add a SOG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 This years State match. First day 2nd stage. Got to the unloading table, racked the lever and flys a spent brass! Same thing happened to me... I have NEVER restaged the rifle without opening the action. Same with me... The rest of the match I double check when I finished shooting the rifle. Same with me.. At the next local match...dad burn blast it all... Same thing happened! Another MS! And I know I racked the lever on that last shot. Very same with me.. I suspect the extractor didn't catch the last round(s). WD 40 the daylights out of the extractor notch on the barrel. Well see if that cures it. If it doesn't then perhaps I should more up the annual '66 cleaning a few years... Matthew.. I had this problem.. 2 things... I had a lot of burnt crud built up under the extractor... Cleaned it... was better but... Nate Kiowa Jones said to look to make sure that little tab was on the bottom of the breech bolt.. Sure enough.. broke off.. when? I don't know.. I put a new Breech bolt in.. fixed... Rance Thinkin' BJT is stirrin' agin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I side with BJT. Do away with the penalty for leaving and EMPTY/SPENT hull in the rifle or shotgun. Levy the penalty if it is a live round. For the OP, if the rifle was the last weapon engaged, and if the shooter never set the rifle down either on the stage or at the uLT, they would be fine to clear the round and not incur the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCBRAZOS, SASS#18033L Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The minor safety on the rifle comes in to play occationally because the rifle is not usually the last gun. The minor safety has occured when the shooter left the rifle with a round in the chamber or on the carrier and another gun was engaged. it's just normally not figured out untill the rifle arives at the ULT unless the shooter or the RO is on top of their game. Yes if the RO notices the round failed to eject and the shooter attemps to clear it and can't then the "broke gun" can be involked and no penalty will be awarded as the RO then knows the rifle is being left in a manner that needs to be handled before the gun leaves the firing line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The shooter has until the next gun is fired: "Empty or live round left in a long gun after the next gun is fired, or if last gun, put down on the unloading table." The shooter has to invoke the broke gun. So the TO would have to see it and stop the shooter before the next gun was fired. Challenging but doable in some cases. I will be doing some TO work Sunday. I will have to try doing this (checking) for each shooter and see how it works out. Cheers, BJT The minor safety on the rifle comes in to play occationally because the rifle is not usually the last gun. The minor safety has occured when the shooter left the rifle with a round in the chamber or on the carrier and another gun was engaged. it's just normally not figured out untill the rifle arives at the ULT unless the shooter or the RO is on top of their game. Yes if the RO notices the round failed to eject and the shooter attemps to clear it and can't then the "broke gun" can be involked and no penalty will be awarded as the RO then knows the rifle is being left in a manner that needs to be handled before the gun leaves the firing line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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