Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Is anyone else seeing the real issue here? It is clear that the MSV for an empty is not modifying behavior. AGREE It is treated as a random penalty that one just puts up with. Either shooter behavior needs to be modified so that most if not all shooters clear their guns on the clock by advancing the empty brass penalty to DQ. AGREE or Remove the penalty for the empty. YEPYEPYEPYEP! Currently it is a safety penalty for something everyone does. Are we being unsafe or masochistic? I think the feller declaring malfunction on every stage is the sane one. Cheers, BJT like it or not the penalty does NOT modify behavior. i dont know anyone who willfully leaves a spent case in an open gun so i dont think the SOG can really be applied unless the Ro calls the shooter back and they refuse. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 The SOG is more sarcasm than anything else but if it were to be taken seriously it would be for willingly not clearing the rifle on the clock to save time and gain competitive advantage, not for the empty case, that only proves the shooter did not clear the rifle. Cheers, BJT like it or not the penalty does NOT modify behavior. i dont know anyone who willfully leaves a spent case in an open gun so i dont think the SOG can really be applied unless the Ro calls the shooter back and they refuse. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 BJT, on 17 August 2011 - 01:01 PM, said: To earn a SOG a shooter must do two things. 1. Intentionally fail to fully engage the stage. 2. Do so for competitive advantage. Our declarative shooter can be found guilty of #1. Rules require that the shooter clear the firearm before it leaves his hands. If the shooter has not done this, he has not fully engaged the stage. Why did the shooter fail to clear the firearm? Because it is faster, for competitive advantage. The SOG is appropriate. That reasoning applies to every shooter who has left an empty round on the carrier. Reply "WRONG! Only if he/she did so intentionally!" Careful Blastmaster, it could be raining SOGs and you are the rain maker! Cheers, BJT __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The SOG is not for leaving the round on the carrier, it is for not clearing the gun. That is a shooter choice, to clear it or not. When it is not cleared, it is to save time, for a better score, giving competitive advantage. Cheers, BJT I disagree with what you say. I can not imagine someone 'intentionally' taking a 10sec penalty (procedural or MS) to gain a competitive advantage over his competion. I can imagine a person trying to declare 'each' firearm shot as being malfunctioned after restaging w/o looking in antisipation of avoiding a potential cartridge on carrier penalty. That is where I would give SOG. In all the years of shooting, I haven't witnessed that snake in the grass that would attempt to declare each gun of each stage broken when restaged. So really, it is a hypothical situation I am referring to. ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 And what would be the call for the following scenario. Shooter shot a 1997. Shotgun last weapon. After his shot and been told his time, he took his carbine muzzle up and went directly to the ULT, the shotgun having not left his hand. Arriving at the ULT, he staged his carbine, hand looked at his shotgun, saw the hull stck on the elevator (not in the chamber) turned the gun window down to let the hull fall at only after that staged the gun for showing clear. From the last shot untill staged the weapon never left the shooter's hand. My opinion was a no call (I was the ULTofficer). Was my opinion right? And, second question, if at the ULT (or LT) table, the on duty officer see something to be called for, could this officer directly call the penalty and report it to the timer or does the officer state the violation to the TO in order to be called or not by the TO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 If a shooter declared a malfuction on every stage, I think that it would be prudent for the T.O. to assume that the shooter's gun was not in a safe condition to be used in CAS. Guns are required to be safe, and even though any gun can malfuction occasionally, one that malfuctiions on every stage could easily be considered "Unsafe". A shooter that is reqired to obtain different ammo after contiually having sqib loads on stage after stage is a good example of a T.O. exercising his/her authority in the name of Safety. Remember, the T.O. is in charge of the Firing line. If he stops the shooter from using the gun which continually malfuctions, then s/he is doing their job. The shooter can of course appeal the call... but it would be very doubtful that any MD would overturn such a call. Safety is PARAMONT, and inforcement of safety is a "Must Do" job. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 And what would be the call for the following scenario. Shooter shot a 1997. Shotgun last weapon. After his shot and been told his time, he took his carbine muzzle up and went directly to the ULT, the shotgun having not left his hand. Arriving at the ULT, he staged his carbine, hand looked at his shotgun, saw the hull stck on the elevator (not in the chamber) turned the gun window down to let the hull fall at only after that staged the gun for showing clear. From the last shot untill staged the weapon never left the shooter's hand. My opinion was a no call (I was the ULTofficer). Was my opinion right? And, second question, if at the ULT (or LT) table, the on duty officer see something to be called for, could this officer directly call the penalty and report it to the timer or does the officer state the violation to the TO in order to be called or not by the TO? Yes, your opinion is backed up with written rule. "Empty or live round left in a long gun after the next gun is fired, or if last gun, put down on the unloading table." IMO the officer should bring it to the TO's attention, who should then report the violation to the scorekeeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamon Chute Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Did he release the shotgun? Fillmore OK, so I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but would it be a penalty Fillmore if he didn't release the shotgun? The reason I ask is 'cuz it happened to me at Sunday's shoot. Last stage of the day, last gun was shotgun, I engaged the targets (shot the stage clean), and held the shotgun (a double) in my hand as I went to the unloading table. Once at the table, while still holding said shotgun, there was a hull hung-up halfway out. I called a penalty on myself. Should I have? Scores haven't been "posted" yet officially so maybe I can save myself a few seconds (and God knows I need to save all I can). EC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Eamon, It would be a "no call" if you removed the shell before setting down the SG. See the rule quoted by Goody in the post preceding yours. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 OK, so I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but would it be a penalty Fillmore if he didn't release the shotgun? The reason I ask is 'cuz it happened to me at Sunday's shoot. Last stage of the day, last gun was shotgun, I engaged the targets (shot the stage clean), and held the shotgun (a double) in my hand as I went to the unloading table. Once at the table, while still holding said shotgun, there was a hull hung-up halfway out. I called a penalty on myself. Should I have? Scores haven't been "posted" yet officially so maybe I can save myself a few seconds (and God knows I need to save all I can). EC If the SG was the last firearm fired, as you approached the ULT, you could have set down your rifle and cleared your shotgun. No call. As far as changing your score/time, you could have done that right after the stage but I doubt now. Maybe your club will allow it but the challenge should have come right after the stage. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamon Chute Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 If the SG was the last firearm fired, as you approached the ULT, you could have set down your rifle and cleared your shotgun. No call. As far as changing your score/time, you could have done that right after the stage but I doubt now. Maybe your club will allow it but the challenge should have come right after the stage. Fillmore Well FIllmore you see....I was the last shooter and the one that noticed the hull hanging-up. I yelled over to the score keeper to tag on the penalty. He said to just go ahead and change it myself on the sheet. We're a trustworthy bunch. So I did. Then I read this thread..... We do allow changes to the scores after leaving the range provided it's done before they are distributed by email. I got it just in just in time. So, except for the "P" I had on the very first stage, I shot the match clean.....DAGNABIT!!!!! So it goes...... EC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 We do allow changes to the scores after leaving the range provided it's done before they are distributed by email. I got it just in just in time. It's been my experience that clubs will change the scores at any time a legitimate mistake is discovered. Why wouldn't they? Many times, the mistake is not recognized until the scores are distributed. Most of us do not have the opportunity to "analyze" the scores until then. Typically, errors are simply data entry and that is understandable. In Eamon's case, the error was a misunderstanding of the rules...that everyone involved misunderstood. Personally, I want to score I shot, the penalties I earned, but minus mistakes. With that said, I've pointed out more errors that affected other shooters than errors that affected me either good or bad. I appreciate the efforts of those who enter our scores, etc., but everyone deserves what they earned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 Well FIllmore you see....I was the last shooter and the one that noticed the hull hanging-up. I yelled over to the score keeper to tag on the penalty. He said to just go ahead and change it myself on the sheet. We're a trustworthy bunch. So I did. Then I read this thread..... We do allow changes to the scores after leaving the range provided it's done before they are distributed by email. I got it just in just in time. So, except for the "P" I had on the very first stage, I shot the match clean.....DAGNABIT!!!!! So it goes...... EC Good on you. I'm glad your club could help out. Good luck on the clean match. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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