Red River Ralph 49760 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Simple question yet it bears repeating. What does the average shooter and the old members want form a annual shoot. FAST STAGES, Challenging shooting orders, activitines on or off the clock. Do you want to go back to first or one to he stand and deliver type of stages. Now this isn't just to start a fight. Onwe of the clubs I shoot with is in the mist of this very discussion. Golod food after dark activities what is wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I don't want to have to study what I am going to do. KEEP IT SIMPLE. I want to be able to work my guns at a fast rate (For me) KEEP THE TARGETS AT A REASONABLE DISTANCE AND SIZE I want to associate with nice people and laugh like hell! All the rest is minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanceswithPitBulls Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I’ve written stages before and the thing is no one agrees on anything about a great shoot. The really good shooters seems to enjoy being challenged while the ones forever destine to the right side of the page love their stand and deliver stages with multiple dumps targets. A match director actually told me once that some shooters hate to be made to look foolish so I should “dumb down” most of the stages. He also pointed out that my one stage involving eight shotgun targets would overheat the few black powder weapons and the two added rounds might possible over task the strict ammo requirements of certain shooters. Bottom line, after thirteen years of shooting Regional, State, and Monthly shoots, the stages I fondly remember involved something unique. I’ve shot stand and deliver stages while seated the entire time in a bath tub. I’ve shot stages mathematically impossible to engage the targets with their usual weapons such as using pistols on the shotgun knockdowns. I’ve shot various flying targets such as raw eggs, apples, and even charcoal briquettes. I’ve shot bonus rifle targets from the hip. I’ve shot lengths of garden hose representing rattlesnakes using a shotgun multiple times until they had traveled a required distance. I’ve shot stages requiring you to miss a certain target. Sounds simple, but just try it. Take a simple five rifle target Nevada sweep starting from the left except you are required to shot near but not hit the number three target on both passes. Ultimately, I suggest you come up with some stages truly to remember sprinkled with a few (no brain - take a rest) stages for the elderly, physically handicapped, mentally impaired, and gunfighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Having been blessed with a local club that puts on what is arguably the "hottest ticket" in shooting in the northeast (sells out in days every year), I have a little insight into what works. Visual variety (neat props) is a "wow" factor. Couple those with relatively simple (no "P" traps) stages incorporating movement, cool targets (folks love movers, oddball targets, etc) and a WELL ORGANIZED machine to run all the peripherals, the rest really dosn't matter. You can have a banquet or a BBQ, but the food better be GOOD (cheap is NOT better when folks are tired and feel like they are getting "crap" ya lost some of the "fun" factor). If ya offer camping, campers ought to have a smart, HELPFUL camp master to make their lives in camp trouble-free. Ain't gotta be fancy, but if they expect electric, it better work, etc..... When folks wanna use the potty, it better have been dumped, cleaned sometime since the Nixon administration), registration ought to be painless and error free, The shooters book ought to be thorough, have a facility MAP, and so on. No thoughtless heartburn....... We're blessed with a tireless and talented crew who consistently DO just that. I'm always amazed, even if I helped build some of it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Great shoot... First and foremost - we are here for the SHOOT. Banquets, entertainment and the size of the trophies are all wonderful things, but without a great SHOOT? It's just lipstick on a pig. What makes a great shoot? Hitting targets is a good place to start - I don't know anyone that stands behind their reloader assembling ammo to have misses. BIG, CLOSE targets. When a shooter feels like they can run at the very edge of (or even a little over) their abilities? That is fun - no matter what your skill level. Move your shooters - Stand and Deliver is boring, movement is fun. Movement between guns, or movement with your shotgun, or a reload on the move with your rifle is entertaining. Keep your sequences consistent - WHEN POSSIBLE (not always, there are reasonable exceptions) - but if you're using a three target sequence for the rifle, use the same three target sequence for the pistols. Vary your sequences - You do not have to create brain teasers to shoot different sweeps, but I detest shooting 12 stages and 7 of them are Nevada sweeps. I have a set rule in the matches I write - one sequence per match (if ya shot a Nevada sweep last stage? Ya aint seein' another one this match) Vary your starting positions - Port arms and rifle at the ready are played out. Why do we never start with pistols out and on target (real Texas surrender position)? Prop manipulation - But remember the skills need to be universal. Carry the gold bag or stab the dummy add spice to the stage without overpowering the shooting. Everyone shoots the same match - I want to win (or lose) on my shooting skills, not my cleverness or gaminess. Shooters choice target sequences create an enviroment where one shooter will get away with something that another does not because of their speed (or the level of spotting talent) or where in the shooting lineup they fell. Simple stage instructions - say EXACTLY what you need to say to ensure the instructions are clear. Avoid any word/ phrasing that has subjective meanings. I.e. the old standard of "within one step of the cone" - Whose step? "Shooter must have at least one foot beyond the marked line" is much less subjective (and now everyone is shooting the same stage). And lastly - remember the majority of your customers are not the top 20% - But the bottom 80%. If the Buckaroos and Grande Dames are enjoying themselves - You did good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Big, close Variety Choice Movement, but not too much, it ain't a track meet Simple, it's not a memory contest I've been thinking alot lately about Posse Marshals... - a bad, inattentive, or passive one at best does nothing to improve the match experience for the posse. - a good one makes things run well and smooth. - a great one not only gets everyone involved in chores, but in cheering everyone else on. Think I'll start another thread. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Red OToole, #48939 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Great shoot... First and foremost - we are here for the SHOOT. Banquets, entertainment and the size of the trophies are all wonderful things, but without a great SHOOT? It's just lipstick on a pig. What makes a great shoot? Hitting targets is a good place to start - I don't know anyone that stands behind their reloader assembling ammo to have misses. BIG, CLOSE targets. When a shooter feels like they can run at the very edge of (or even a little over) their abilities? That is fun - no matter what your skill level. Move your shooters - Stand and Deliver is boring, movement is fun. Movement between guns, or movement with your shotgun, or a reload on the move with your rifle is entertaining. Keep your sequences consistent - WHEN POSSIBLE (not always, there are reasonable exceptions) - but if you're using a three target sequence for the rifle, use the same three target sequence for the pistols. Vary your sequences - You do not have to create brain teasers to shoot different sweeps, but I detest shooting 12 stages and 7 of them are Nevada sweeps. I have a set rule in the matches I write - one sequence per match (if ya shot a Nevada sweep last stage? Ya aint seein' another one this match) Vary your starting positions - Port arms and rifle at the ready are played out. Why do we never start with pistols out and on target (real Texas surrender position)? Prop manipulation - But remember the skills need to be universal. Carry the gold bag or stab the dummy add spice to the stage without overpowering the shooting. Everyone shoots the same match - I want to win (or lose) on my shooting skills, not my cleverness or gaminess. Shooters choice target sequences create an enviroment where one shooter will get away with something that another does not because of their speed (or the level of spotting talent) or where in the shooting lineup they fell. Simple stage instructions - say EXACTLY what you need to say to ensure the instructions are clear. Avoid any word/ phrasing that has subjective meanings. I.e. the old standard of "within one step of the cone" - Whose step? "Shooter must have at least one foot beyond the marked line" is much less subjective (and now everyone is shooting the same stage). And lastly - remember the majority of your customers are not the top 20% - But the bottom 80%. If the Buckaroos and Grande Dames are enjoying themselves - You did good. There is little to add to this list. Match Directors...take a look!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 WOW, mostly great ideas. I would add one target size, for the rifle and pistol that are an accuracy challenge. What is an accuracy challenge, one that can be hit by any decent shooter who is familiar with his gun and ammunition, but the shot does require a change in his shooting tempo for the guaranteed hit. This can be done with a half to one third size target (round or square) placed at the same distance as the rest of the targets and figure that if a shooter or his gun will not be able to put a shot in six inches, close range, then he needs more time practicing and less time at big matches. I would have at least one moving rifle target somewhere in the match. There would be one or two throwers or pop-ups for the shotgun positioned somewhere along the way. Special skills should be expected to show up more often than they normally do now days but not to the degree that any one of them should be expected at any given match. That occasional 'load one on the clock' should be done with the revolver as well as with the rifle. An occasional engagement fired from behind the barrier is a good and realistic skill. There are many important skills that will never get practiced by most if they are never expected to show up in a match occasionally. Fast stages may move a lot of shooters through but do nothing much for quality time at the line. I would rather shoot five great stages than six stages that are all rapid fire clones of each other. Remember, you never hear shooters say, "Wow, how about that forth stage, it was just like the others!". Choice choice choice, that is the shooting order. My friend Edisto Ike may not have originated this idea but he is the one who introduced it to me. Have your designated shooting locations that are required to acheive movement BUT allow starting and ending locations to a shooters choice as much as possible. I hate the supposed 'challenging' target acquisition stages, lets leave the brain teasers for the tv game shows and let the shooter decide target engagement order to a degree. Simple instructions like "any order" or perhaps something like "Nevada Sweep in either direction and starting on either end "The stage set up and target lay outs should be the writers challenge and the shooting 'how to' of it should be the shooters challenge. I think most shooters will enjoy figuring out the stage for themselves much more than trying to recall a memory puzzle at the line. Your monthly match should should be built around two aspects, fun and preparation for the bigger matches. Each gun should get say eighty to ninety percent speed skills and the rest about variety (some of which are also about speed, just in a different format). These are the matches that should not be bound by the normal conventions of time or number of shooters versus length of match. Time at the line is time at the line and there are many shooters out there who would rather spend five stages doing something fun and educational than six stages of pure speed practice, know your shooters and use the monthly match to please all of them and not just those who are into your niche of the game. Just because you do not like the Texas Star or other specialty targets should not be used as a reason to find excuses to deprive those who feel differently a venue every month. This is also the time to allow an occasional randomness or lucky shot to be added to the just for fun crowd, these are the ones that never have a place in big matches. Do not make it about personal, make it about something for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 A great shoot ,to me is just being able to shoot.I started so late I want to catch up. I will run ,crawl or roll if needed to shoot. We have very good writers for our shoots and allway makes it fun. I am 67 all most 68 ,I have RA and they want to replace a knee, but If I can get up and go I will shoot and love it.Target size dont matter,big or small near or far.Love movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 GOOD WEATHER. Temperatures of 64 to 70 degrees, sunny, light wind from the right for the blackpowder shooters, and low humidity. And a range that faces north. eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Great shoot... First and foremost - we are here for the SHOOT. Banquets, entertainment and the size of the trophies are all wonderful things, but without a great SHOOT? It's just lipstick on a pig. What makes a great shoot? Hitting targets is a good place to start - I don't know anyone that stands behind their reloader assembling ammo to have misses. BIG, CLOSE targets. When a shooter feels like they can run at the very edge of (or even a little over) their abilities? That is fun - no matter what your skill level. Move your shooters - Stand and Deliver is boring, movement is fun. Movement between guns, or movement with your shotgun, or a reload on the move with your rifle is entertaining. Keep your sequences consistent - WHEN POSSIBLE (not always, there are reasonable exceptions) - but if you're using a three target sequence for the rifle, use the same three target sequence for the pistols. Vary your sequences - You do not have to create brain teasers to shoot different sweeps, but I detest shooting 12 stages and 7 of them are Nevada sweeps. I have a set rule in the matches I write - one sequence per match (if ya shot a Nevada sweep last stage? Ya aint seein' another one this match) Vary your starting positions - Port arms and rifle at the ready are played out. Why do we never start with pistols out and on target (real Texas surrender position)? Prop manipulation - But remember the skills need to be universal. Carry the gold bag or stab the dummy add spice to the stage without overpowering the shooting. Everyone shoots the same match - I want to win (or lose) on my shooting skills, not my cleverness or gaminess. Shooters choice target sequences create an enviroment where one shooter will get away with something that another does not because of their speed (or the level of spotting talent) or where in the shooting lineup they fell. Simple stage instructions - say EXACTLY what you need to say to ensure the instructions are clear. Avoid any word/ phrasing that has subjective meanings. I.e. the old standard of "within one step of the cone" - Whose step? "Shooter must have at least one foot beyond the marked line" is much less subjective (and now everyone is shooting the same stage). And lastly - remember the majority of your customers are not the top 20% - But the bottom 80%. If the Buckaroos and Grande Dames are enjoying themselves - You did good. This is a great outline for sure. Variation is the key,sequences & starting positions,movement doesn't have to be far just have it & dont make a long movement to 1st gun,also variation in movement if range allows it have some downrange movement instead of all lateral. I agree with Creeker on sequences being similar for pistol & rifle but for me I dont always want them the same,for example if you do a Nevad sweep with pistols do a double tap Nevada sweep with rifle or make two different sweeps for rifle & pistol but keep real simple or make one(rifle or pistol) shooters choice. Variation in target height & distance. I've been to a couple of big matches were it seemed like not much thought was put into stages very disappointing for sure. AO As someone who writes matches,its rewarding to see folks with big smiles on thier faces havin a big time,cause thats what thier there for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 It's often stated that most shooters want big, close targets that are easy to hit. But last year I held what I called a "Contraption" match which had nothing but difficult, moving complicated stages. It was for those of us who get bored just shooting big, close targets. Since my stages did not have any big, close stationary targets I didn't expect much of a turn out. But I ended up with 24 shooters which is as many as we see at our regular matches. I had planned on this being a one-time event but I've had many shooters request that I do it again so I've decided to do so. Here's a link to last years stages. Contraption Match It's going to be better this year. I have a design for what I call a "Diabolical" Texas Star which will involve ten targets. Sage Creek Gus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 What makes a great shoot? Great question. Short answer. Great people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ralph 49760 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 I really think great people and fun fun fun run in every shoot at least in the last eight years I have been doing our sport. I am wondering about none shooting things like money bags roping steer shooting form chair and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Just to add to the above... What I really DON'T like are pistol and rifle knockdown targets that must fall to count. Inevitably they lose their calibration over the course of the match. They also don't go down uniformly, every time for the same power factor. C&B shooters are at a disadvantage. However, there is a way to employ them without adding to anyone's frustration. A hit is a hit, regardless of whether they fall or not. Then they are not a power test and there are no worries about calibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major E A Sterner #12916 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Big, close Variety Choice Movement, but not too much, it ain't a track meet Simple, it's not a memory contest I've been thinking alot lately about Posse Marshals... - a bad, inattentive, or passive one at best does nothing to improve the match experience for the posse. - a good one makes things run well and smooth. - a great one not only gets everyone involved in chores, but in cheering everyone else on. Think I'll start another thread. Grizz I agree with Griz on the movement but not too much. This is a shooting contest not a track meet. some of us can shoot real good, but don't move very fast. If I hurt myself trying to move too fast or am tired from all that movement I won't have as good a time. 2 to 4 steps between guns should be more than enough to break up the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I like variety, some stages up close and big, some stages farther out and some stages with more movement. I like matches where I remember what fun we had. We just shot the NC state match. This year's theme was the singing cowboys; each stage started with the line from a movie or TV show being sung by the shooter to signal that he/she wasr ready. From Gene Autry to Roy-n0Dale to Singing Sandy Saunders (Duke Wayne), we had a blast hearing the lines 'sung', a term with a definition that was quite wide at times. In the end, the shooting game is just a part of being around great people wearing the dress, weapons and attitudes of more than a century ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I like most want some speed possible, interesting stages, some thought required, lots of laughter and good friends. One of my pet peeves is food. If the match offers lunch, breakfast or banquet and requires prepayment for all of these items then I should be able to be last in line and still receive what #1 got. Too many matches serve small portions because they are afraid they will run out and still run out How can you possibly offer hot dogs as a lunch and run out? Buy extras and keep them on ice. If there are leftovers, sell them to club members to take home for their freezers. Same with hamburger, buns etc. We are mostly people in good health with good appetites and expect to be fed if we have pre-paid for it. The US Open last year had several food vendors. You had the option of a variety of foods available for lunch. By the way the church group with the tilapia sandwiches was outstanding. Comin at Cha offers lunch tokens that are usable with any food vendor on the grounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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