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Wardrobe malfunction...What's the call


Slick Derringer

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Shoot both pistols. Move to next position. Hat leaves head. Hat lands on the ground. (i.e. Shooter hits head while moving through door way) Shoot rifle then shoot

 

shotgun (of course, not wearing hat that fell to the ground)

 

Shooter receive a P ???

 

 

 

From shooter handbook

 

"CLASSIC COWBOY/COWGIRL

 

• Hats must be worn for the entire match

 

“B” WESTERN

 

• Hats must be worn"

 

From ROI page 25

 

"Procedural Penalties

 

• Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing."

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Only an idiot would give a P for that.

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I wouldn't want to shoot at a club that gave a P because someone's hat fell off while he was shooting.

What's he suppose to do stop and bend down to get the hat?

That might end up being unsafe....

 

I believe that what the handbook means is that a shooter can not intentionally neglect to adhere to the dress requirements of his catagory.

If he starts the stage with the hat on his head.....no P

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Shoot both pistols. Move to next position. Hat leaves head. Hat lands on the ground. (i.e. Shooter hits head while moving through door way) Shoot rifle then shoot

 

shotgun (of course, not wearing hat that fell to the ground)

 

Shooter receive a P ???

 

 

 

From shooter handbook

 

"CLASSIC COWBOY/COWGIRL

 

• Hats must be worn for the entire match

 

“B” WESTERN

 

• Hats must be worn"

 

From ROI page 25

 

"Procedural Penalties

 

• Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing."

 

You might be taking those rules a BIIIIIIIIT too literally. Where you see folks breaking them is when they say something like, "Whew, too dang hot to wear a hat today. I'm just gonna leave it in the car." THAT would be breaking the rules you cited. Or when you see folks at the awards ceremony after the match not wearing their hats. If they're in the categories you mentioned that's a no-no.

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Well of course it's a P !!!!

We've had fellas, come to the line and take their hat off to wipe the sweet off their face.

That's a P too!!

Than there are the guys who take their hat off to the Lady RO, ta say Howdy Mame.

That's a P too !!

Rules is Rules...take it like a man!!

But this is a prop failure plan and simple...doorway was too small!!

Doorways should be 10 ft tall and 10 ft wide, ta kinda square things up.

It's kinda like when you throw your rifle at the buckboard and it closes when it hits.

It was open when it left your hand!!!!

But mostly it was the RO's fault... a good RO always has one hand on the Cowboys hat!!

When shooter is CC or B-Western of course.

 

BH

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Always wear a stampede string!

 

"I was wearin' my hat - as a necklace!!"

 

 

I'm with the crowd that says whomever gives a 'P' for that is an idiot ... or just a overly competitive jerk looking for any lame excuse to penalize someone.

 

I think I'd be requesting to be on another posse next time out, pard.

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First of all as a reader/poster on this site I take exception to the use of terms like idiot being applied because you don't like a persons view. This is not supposed to be antagonistic nor rude.

 

For those who do not want to award a P do you maintain that it is a legit call to award a P for shooting out of category when shooting not in Gunfighter nor B-Western and 4 rounds fired from revolver one (leaving it still loaded) and it is still in hand while drawing revolver two (Note here both revolvers are clear of leather for this question)?

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Its ironic that this topic is on the Wire.

 

On another thread, there is good discussion about how we are suppose to just read the rules and not apply our own interpretation. If you just 'read the rule' on this type situation, someone is gona get a penalty.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a penalty is deserved on this type situation. But, sometimes, adhering to a rule just as it is written can become painful for all of us.

 

 

..........Widder

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I figure it is a legal call. If I got that call, and it was upheld, I would get me a felt hat that was about half size and wear it as a codpeice every time I went to that range.

 

I might wear a full size one, I ain't above bragging.

 

It may be more appropriate there as, according to some, it would be much more likely to shade my brains.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

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I'm pretty sure it's a hangin' offense. If you don't now, it's just a matter of time before he'd be horse theivin'.

 

If not hanging, then at least a good stomping and spurring... ;)

 

I would not give a penalty to the shooter, and I would overrule a TO that gave the penalty if the shooter asked to bring it to the match director.

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Assuming that the shooter in question is shooting as Classic Cowboy or B-Western, But the OP doesn't say!

 

But if it did, I make the case for the P based upon.

A. rules about the hat as stated in the OP.

B. Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing. From page 25 of RO1 manual.

Remember this is the same rule that was applied along with the BWestern and Gunfighter to the shooter who had two loaded firearms out of leather at the same time and drew a P.

 

Based upon that thread discussed several months back the shooter had both guns out for several seconds here the shooter has no hat as required for the remainder of the stage. Apparently more than a couple of seconds.

 

BJT remember that;

 

From Shooters handbook page 3;

ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how

it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television.

So a hat as a codpiece would not be legal.

Unless you saw it in a B Western. Please cite the movie.

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First of all as a reader/poster on this site I take exception to the use of terms like idiot being applied because you don't like a persons view. This is not supposed to be antagonistic nor rude.

 

For those who do not want to award a P do you maintain that it is a legit call to award a P for shooting out of category when shooting not in Gunfighter nor B-Western and 4 rounds fired from revolver one (leaving it still loaded) and it is still in hand while drawing revolver two (Note here both revolvers are clear of leather for this question)?

 

 

No it is not a legit call. The proper call is either a minor safety violation for not returning the gun to leather per the RO 1 manual

 

Minor safety infractions occurring during a course of fire that do not directly endanger

persons will result in a 10-second penalty being added to the shooter’s time for that stage.

“Minor” safety infractions are occurrences such as failure to open a long gun’s action at the

conclusion of a shooting string or failure to return an empty revolver to its holster at the

conclusion of a shooting string.

 

and a procedurtal for failing to fire the proper number of rounds

 

or it is a procedural for failing to fire the proper number of rounds and a minor safety violation for the live round in the gun.

 

Shooting out of category would be a Procedural, but your example earns a procedural without getting to that point and does not IMNSHO constitute shooting out of category.

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JM Flint, Sir you are incorrect. Do you remember that thread of which I spoke?

PWB said that it was a P if the two revolvers were out of leather at the same time.

 

If not please cite including quotes and page number the rules that give him the MSV for not returning gun to leather, the P for failing to fire the proper number of rounds and other stuff as you claim.

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You mean you do not wear your hat on your head?

 

Huh.........

 

Also, I would make the argument that a hat can be considered an accessory, not clothing and therefore not subject to page 3.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

Assuming that the shooter in question is shooting as Classic Cowboy or B-Western, But the OP doesn't say!

 

But if it did, I make the case for the P based upon.

A. rules about the hat as stated in the OP.

B. Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing. From page 25 of RO1 manual.

Remember this is the same rule that was applied along with the BWestern and Gunfighter to the shooter who had two loaded firearms out of leather at the same time and drew a P.

 

Based upon that thread discussed several months back the shooter had both guns out for several seconds here the shooter has no hat as required for the remainder of the stage. Apparently more than a couple of seconds.

 

BJT remember that;

 

From Shooters handbook page 3;

 

So a hat as a codpiece would not be legal.

Unless you saw it in a B Western. Please cite the movie.

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Assuming that the shooter in question is shooting as Classic Cowboy or B-Western, But the OP doesn't say!

 

But if it did, I make the case for the P based upon.

A. rules about the hat as stated in the OP.

B. Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing. From page 25 of RO1 manual.

Remember this is the same rule that was applied along with the BWestern and Gunfighter to the shooter who had two loaded firearms out of leather at the same time and drew a P.

 

Based upon that thread discussed several months back the shooter had both guns out for several seconds here the shooter has no hat as required for the remainder of the stage. Apparently more than a couple of seconds.

 

BJT remember that;

 

From Shooters handbook page 3;

 

So a hat as a codpiece would not be legal.

Unless you saw it in a B Western. Please cite the movie.

 

You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

In the case of two loaded pistols, that's the fault of the shooter and definitely should result in whatever penalty is appropriate.

 

In the case of the hat, it was accidently "removed" from his head by an external force. In this case a door frame but, it could have just as easily been a gust of wind.

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Philly Slim,

 

They are neither apples nor oranges.

They are BOTH cases where a P can and should be called for "Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing"

The shooter is ultimately responsible for all actions he performs unless it is defined to be a prop nor posse malfunction.

This was neither a prop nor a posse malfunction.

His failure to have a hat on his head or worn correctly is his problem.

He could have had a stampede string.

It would then have been worn.

It certainly would not have been on the ground.

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I pasted part of the RO 1 Manual, and I will let you read the rules for yourself.

 

PWB does an excellent job of helping to interpret grey areas of the rules and I don't dispute his call. Under your scenario, there are several ways to get to the P, but you can only get one P.

 

The manuals are there for you to read, if you need more information, take the RO1 and RO2 courses. Spend some time at shoots and it will generally become clear.

 

Your tone is either intentionally provocative, which would make me believe you are a troll, or you have an uncanny knack for getting under my hide. Either way, best of luck and I am done with this thread

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Philly Slim,

 

They are neither apples nor oranges.

They are BOTH cases where a P can and should be called for "Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing"

The shooter is ultimately responsible for all actions he performs unless it is defined to be a prop nor posse malfunction.

This was neither a prop nor a posse malfunction.

His failure to have a hat on his head or worn correctly is his problem.

He could have had a stampede string.

It would then have been worn.

It certainly would not have been on the ground.

 

 

No, if you truely want to go down that slippery slope, it would NOT have been worn if he'd had a stampede strap. For a hat to be WORN, it needs to be on wearer's head. The head is where hats are WORN. When the stampede strap comes into play, the hat DANGLES around the person's neck. Therefore it would still be a Procedural.

 

But seriously, I really do get the feeling you're havin' a little fun by yankin' everybody's chain. Would you REALLY call a Procedural if a shooter's hat got knocked off his head in the middle of a stage? Really??? :(

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Shooter in Classic or B goes to line in full regalia ... hat gets swept off by prop (or gust of wind) ... it has to be a no call.

 

The distraction of having your lid sail away certainly wouldn't be much of a competitive advantage.

 

Take a look at the video Red River Ray posted about the '97 ...

 

How would you call that?

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I figure it is a legal call. If I got that call, and it was upheld, I would get me a felt hat that was about half size and wear it as a codpeice every time I went to that range.

 

I might wear a full size one, I ain't above bragging.

 

It may be more appropriate there as, according to some, it would be much more likely to shade my brains.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

BJT,

 

If you did this in CC or BW, you would run afoul of the rules. The following is from P. 3 of the SHB, "ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television." As those categories have hat requirements and you were not wearing it appropriately, you would get a P on the first stage, a SDQ on the second, and a MDQ on the third (progressive penalty.)

 

It may just be my twisted way of thinking (or lack of a sense of humor); but, having the wind or a SG accidentially remove the hat is way different from flaunting the rules.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I can't believe we're even discussing this. :wacko:

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