End of Trail Wild Bunch Match

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

19 minutes ago, Frederick Jackson Turner said:

Shooters who have purchased firearms at significant cost, procured components, developed loads, and invested in the game have a right to feel a bit stiffed, don't you think?  Imagine the outrage if Classic Cowboy, or B Western became "Run What Ya Brung."  I don't think either of those have the numbers combined at Winter Trail or End of Range, or whatever they're calling it, now, that WB demonstrated.

 

I get that it is a game, and it belongs to SASS.  Whether or not the changes will swell the ranks is yet to be seen. But don't belittle those who sweated and invested to make it what is is, so far.

Heyya FJT!!!

 

Two things:

1. How many of those that are competing in WBAS had to buy a .40+ rifle so that they could play the game.

2. I don't see anyone really belittling anyone. I have seen folks say things like...paraphrasing here...'you don't shoot WB so why don't you shut up'...and if the game is truly growing, is this pace of growth significant enough to keep things at the status quo?

 

The last thing...not to be confused with the first two things...as I see "it", the two issues that are holding Cowboy Action Shooters back from playing WB is the cost of buying another rifle and then having to reload for that new caliber (most of the resistance is in the cost of the new rifle), and shooting targets that are actually rifle targets. You as much as anyone knows that the 1911 was a last ditch effort for the soldier to get to his/her rifle...up close work. Rather tortuous stages. While they might attract some, they are a barrier to many.

 

Phantom

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

Hello FJT.  I have enjoyed shooting with you.  I think a good compromise would be to put the power factor on the rifle no matter what caliber.  Not hard to make 150 with a 38.  Also there is going to be a TG structure in WB and the way to change it would be to work with the new system.  I still believe the way to attract more shooters is with stage design.  Serenity has proved that with her stages at EOT.  They were challenging yet doable for the average shooter

Hope to shoot with you again

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Hmmmm.....Wonder if there had never been a movie called  "The Wild Bunch."   Would we still be talking on this subject on the SASS Cowboy Action Shooting  website?

[Badlands Bob #61228]

The rifle caliber change will have a very small impact on the stage time.  The time difference between shooting a .38 7 times vs. shooting a .40+ cal. 7 times can't be much.  The match will continue to be won by the people who can master the 1911 loading and shooting.  Shooting 6 targets down with the preloaded shotgun is just a matter of don't get sloppy.  

 

The biggest issue will be that the folks that have invested big money into a .40+ rifle may have a hard time selling it since the demand has just dried up.  

I personally will be cleaning my Marlin 1894 .45 and storing it in the back of the safe.  I'll be using my gamer 1873 .357.  

[DeaconKC]

I am glad to see the 38 rifle opened up. If a shooter has his .38 set up for CAS now all he needs to do is pick up a $400 Tisas or Rock Island to shoot WB as opposed to a $1000 rifle. For a lot of shooters, this could be the difference in being able to shoot this sport.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

23 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Hmmmm.....Wonder if there had never been a movie called  "The Wild Bunch."   Would we still be talking on this subject on the SASS Cowboy Action Shooting  website?

Funny you should mention that. As I’m sure you know, many clubs used to shoot what they called Wild Bunch side matches, based on the variety of guns used in the movie, prior to SASS’s involvement. We didn’t have a machine gun, but we used 1911s, single action revolvers, pistol and rifle caliber lever actions, Milsurp bolt actions, and 97s. We shot it many times at annual matches (we put on two a year for a while). When SASS decided to standardize and mandate their rules at sanctioned matches, we changed the name to The Professionals, named after another movie. It was popular, but when we quit doing annuals we stopped doing it. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

31 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

as opposed to a $1000 rifle

This is being rather conservative.

 

If one shoots CAS and want to play WB, they are going to want the two rifles to be pretty much identical. So if one has a 73 with SS/etc, they'll be closer to $2k.

 

Phantom

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

This is being rather conservative.

If one shoots CAS and want to play WB, they are going to want the two rifles to be pretty much identical. So if one has a 73 with SS/etc, they'll be closer to $2k.

Phantom

That's a pretty broad assumption.  I don't believe you can really assume such.  The games are different enough that a different rifle might just fulfil a gap in one's collection, or simply provide an excuse to buy something different.  With the rather limited role the rifle has played in WB to date, a different model rifle is not really a hindrance.

 

At the outset of WB, an Rossi or Marlin were quite a bit less expensive than they currently are... as were 1873s.  And, if one were just going to "try it out", the less expensive option would have been attractive.  And the market for lightly used firearms was not, nor is it presently "soft", recouping a small investment would not have been difficult.

 

But, I suspect for the competitive shooter, the opposite holds water also.  As we both know, I'm not that guy.  So, we'll have to agree-to-disagree... Not everyone can play cowboy... not everyone can play WB... or, should I say not everyone is willing the make the sacrifices necessary to play either, certainly not both.   ç'est la vie!

 

Maybe this is a rather extreme simile... but just as Pres. Carter granted amnesty to draft dodgers, and Viet Nam veterans felt betrayed... for multiple reasons.   So too...

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 hours ago, Griff said:

That's a pretty broad assumption.  I don't believe you can really assume such.  The games are different enough that a different rifle might just fulfil a gap in one's collection, or simply provide an excuse to buy something different.  With the rather limited role the rifle has played in WB to date, a different model rifle is not really a hindrance.

 

At the outset of WB, an Rossi or Marlin were quite a bit less expensive than they currently are... as were 1873s.  And, if one were just going to "try it out", the less expensive option would have been attractive.  And the market for lightly used firearms was not, nor is it presently "soft", recouping a small investment would not have been difficult.

 

But, I suspect for the competitive shooter, the opposite holds water also.  As we both know, I'm not that guy.  So, we'll have to agree-to-disagree... Not everyone can play cowboy... not everyone can play WB... or, should I say not everyone is willing the make the sacrifices necessary to play either, certainly not both.   ç'est la vie!

 

Maybe this is a rather extreme simile... but just as Pres. Carter granted amnesty to draft dodgers, and Viet Nam veterans felt betrayed... for multiple reasons.   So too...

Okay...

 

Most folks don't want two competition rifles to feel different. 

 

Why do you think those with backup rifles, revolvers and shotguns want them to be set up the same.

 

Phantom

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

13 hours ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

Funny you should mention that. As I’m sure you know, many clubs used to shoot what they called Wild Bunch side matches, based on the variety of guns used in the movie, prior to SASS’s involvement. We didn’t have a machine gun, but we used 1911s, single action revolvers, pistol and rifle caliber lever actions, Milsurp bolt actions, and 97s. We shot it many times at annual matches (we put on two a year for a while). When SASS decided to standardize and mandate their rules at sanctioned matches, we changed the name to The Professionals, named after another movie. It was popular, but when we quit doing annuals we stopped doing it. 

Those annuals were the very best of times!  

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

38 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Those annuals were the very best of times!  

They sure were. At first I thought Just George was nuts to want to put on big matches, but it turned out he was just an unhinged genius.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

They sure were. At first I thought Just George was nuts to want to put on big matches, but it turned out he was just an unhinged genius.  

You're 'rite' on both accounts. 

[Coffee]

20 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Hmmmm.....Wonder if there had never been a movie called  "The Wild Bunch."   

Yep there was such a movie, and the main characters were Bad Guys. And aside from the opening scene, where a model 12 was used, they dressed as cowboys of the time and shot single action pistols, 1911s 97s and lever action rifles. Pretty sure that power factor, caliber and stage designs were not an issue.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Coffee said:

Yep there was such a movie, and the main characters were Bad Guys. And aside from the opening scene, where a model 12 was used, they dressed as cowboys of the time and shot single action pistols, 1911s 97s and lever action rifles. Pretty sure that power factor, caliber and stage designs were not an issue.

Using blanks and following a script has little bearing regarding actual use.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Local club "annual matches" held over 2 or 3 or 4 days.  NOT "championship" matches.  Folks came out and watched or participated in all the shooting events.  Side matches, main match, top gun shoot off, dinners, poker games, karaoke singing, dancing, etc.  It was the BEST of times to be involved in Cowboy Action Shooting.  I believe during this time period in the mid to late 90's, it was the biggest increase in SASS membership.   

We were having a great time playing Cowboy with a bunch of wonderful folks.

If anyone who is spending the kind of money it takes to play "Cowboy" and shooting in CAS matches, is not having fun, then, .......play miniature golf by yourself.  

[Marty Mudd]

I understand those that have no problem with the new way. I also fully understand that it is a shame, in many ways, to do to Wild Bunch what has been done with CAS. (10,10,4 plus). We used to do things before shooting. We occasionally shot less than 10 rifle. We had lines to quote or mangle. Sometimes we did "gasp" reloads. Yes, pistol, too. Multiple size and shape targets at varied distances..... Same thing happened. We just want big targets. close in. Probably helped grow the game. You always have the option to quit or buy the 2024 model and drive on.

  Just the view from my saddle.

                     My name is still Mudd