Interesting discovery about the Dillon 650/750 powder measure that can be helpful when need to vary the powder load

[Mysterious Stranger]

Today, I made a VERY interesting discovery about the Dillon powder measure that can be helpful to others that load cartridges for their CAS shooting on a Dillon XL650 or XL750 press and need to change powder settings with minimized loading rhythm disruption: The Dillon powder measure on these presses can be calibrated for reproducible settings.

I installed a simple aftermarket knob that slips over the 10mm bolted on the Dillon, and gets secured by an Allen screw. The aftermarket knob has about a 1-1/4” diameter, is NUMBERED all around its circumference, and has a pointer for indexing:

 

I found that when I adjust the number of grains of TiteGroup powder to be dropped, the “settings” I found were:
No. of grains Setting no.
3.6                   25
3.8                  34
4.0                 41
4.2                 52
4.4                64

Notice that the number change between different grain amounts is NOT linear, because the combination of the knob’s numbering and the apparent shape of the Dillon powder chamber are not "in sync". i.e. “0” and “50” settings on the knob do not correspond to the Dillon powder chamber being “fully closed" and “fully open”. It takes multiple 360 degree turns of the knob to exercise the entire range of the Dillon powder chamber, AND that powder chamber shape is very non-symmetrical (Take a look at your Dillon's "spare" powder bar assemblies that you are not currently using to see HOW asymmetric they are).

HOWEVER, within a range compatible with my typical range of powder settings used for a handgun "ladder test", the settings ARE in fact exactly reproducible. That is, rotating the knob to “25” ALWAYS does get me 3.6g of TireGroup powder. Rotating the knob to “41” always does get me 4.0 grains of TiteGroup powder.

 

Also, after changing the knob setting, the very first powder drop after that is already exactly at the new powder setting. I checked that for repeatability and it is 100% consistent.

Naturally, the "chart" of grains versus settings changes with each different powder.

So, now:
1. I have a “chart” to set my powder drop, instead of having to do iterative hunting for the correct setting of the unlabeled Dillon bolt-head.

 

2. When preparing a batch of cartridges with differing amounts of powder for ladder testing, I do not have to stop the XL750 loading between the different amounts of powder. That stoppage is very disruptive to consistency of the cartridges, because it creates “empty stations” at both the beginning and end of each batch of any one powder setting, and the shell plate movement and stop points change slightly, often upsetting things like COAL and taper or roll crimping.

With this new powder adjustment technique, I do not need to have any empty stations. I just stop the press with all stations occupied, as soon as the last case for the current powder setting has been filled at Station 2 and has moved to Station 3. Then, I change the setting on the labeled knob to the new setting, and resume operating the press handle. Then, 3 strokes of the handle complete the loading at the current powder setting. The 4th and subsequent cartridges produced are all at the new number of grains of powder.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I rarely change my powder drop for CAS reloading, but that might come in handy when I'm reloading .556 or .45 ACP.  Where did you get it and how did you install it?

 

I assume those loads are not for CAS?  They seem a bit 'hot'.  I'm running 3.0 of Titegroup under a 125 grain TCFP bullet.

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

Where did you get the knob?

[Eyesa Horg]

I like the micrometer adjuster from Uniquetech. Once you set up the spread sheet for a particular powder, just enter how many grains you want and set it. I do have to fine tweak a little lot to lot. Way more pricey than the knob though.

[Mysterious Stranger]

28 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I rarely change my powder drop for CAS reloading, but that might come in handy when I'm reloading .556 or .45 ACP.  Where did you get it and how did you install it?

 

I assume those loads are not for CAS?  They seem a bit 'hot'.  I'm running 3.0 of Titegroup under a 125 grain TCFP bullet.

 

The knob is from Armanov. Google them. They make many accessories for Dillon presses.

 

The loads ARE for my ladder testing for CAS. I am trying 130g RNFP cast bullets. The hodgdon load tables show a load for a 135g LRNFP, which is close enough to my 130g LRNFP:

 

 

Note that the recommended load range for TiteGroup with this bullet is 3.5g to 5.2g. I calculated that the "sweet spot" where peak pressure matches the BN of the bullet is at around 4.35g, so I prepared a supply of cartridges for the ladder test that range from 3.6g to 4.4g.

 

I am very INsensitive to recoil, so am not concerned about the potential muzzle velocity being over 1000 fps. That speed also should not causing leading. If it does, I'll reduce the charge provided that the accuracy is still acceptable at a reduced charge. The ladder test, shooting both my rifle and one of my revolvers, should hopefully show the relative velocities and points of impact versus point of aim.

[Mysterious Stranger]

16 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I like the micrometer adjuster from Uniquetech. Once you set up the spread sheet for a particular powder, just enter how many grains you want and set it. I do have to fine tweak a little lot to lot. Way more pricey than the knob though.

 

I'll have to look into that UniqueTek micrometer adjuster. I had not heard about that! 

[Eyesa Horg]

33 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

 

I'll have to look into that UniqueTek micrometer adjuster. I had not heard about that! 

I like it a lot! I've tried the dials, but you need to remember how many turns and the number. I have a lap top in my loading room, so if want another grain weight, I just input it on the spread sheet and poof, I have the new setting. It comes with the Excel spread sheet and good instruction to set it for your powder. I set up multiple sheets for different powders and print them for my common loads so I just have to look at them dial to the setting and verify the drop.

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

 

The knob is from Armanov. Google them. They make many accessories for Dillon presses.

 

The loads ARE for my ladder testing for CAS. I am trying 130g RNFP cast bullets. The hodgdon load tables show a load for a 135g LRNFP, which is close enough to my 130g LRNFP:

 

 

Note that the recommended load range for TiteGroup with this bullet is 3.5g to 5.2g. I calculated that the "sweet spot" where peak pressure matches the BN of the bullet is at around 4.35g, so I prepared a supply of cartridges for the ladder test that range from 3.6g to 4.4g.

 

I am very INsensitive to recoil, so am not concerned about the potential muzzle velocity being over 1000 fps. That speed also should not causing leading. If it does, I'll reduce the charge provided that the accuracy is still acceptable at a reduced charge. The ladder test, shooting both my rifle and one of my revolvers, should hopefully show the relative velocities and points of impact versus point of aim.

Thanks, I looked them up, $35 isn't a bad price.

 

I've never shown much sensitivity to recoil either, but I still shoot lighter loads because that allows me to get back/stay on target quicker/easier.  Those should be within SASS maximums, barely for your pistols.  Assuming you're shooting shorter than 10 inch barrel pistols you'll lose some FPS and assuming the muzzle velocity drops is linear from 5.2 max to 3.5 minimum (probably not a safe assumption) you're probably under the 1,000 FPS speed limit at 4.4g, but I bet it's not by much.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Those wheels are available on EBay from $4.00 and up.  When using them do not forget about the backlash in the screw.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/302046554591?epid=849762724&hash=item465360a9df:g:5iYAAOSwJ7RYSWfV&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8ELo3v5rmhKBhpLeBOndxLtupF3Y3cJYSUP9PCBaNtMWjnyFh9nexEtbT765M3EDyePmjtBpoIZWRvZ5U2y5iPChlUUq2HvwQgY3x2NfFRcKZuXpVOrvIhn2FHnCVaRwJb%2F4SxyA9mPdbwGjLiJquDZI21j0SxxBp%2BzT07X6yE4%2B0rv7Zs3l%2FWESqSTcAXH4xkRTtlzE4wBmS4SLf%2F5ofiboqHcMs6xiGzBgRE1aNcldiU5qtnw4OgJKmoUUrkwmpvK6fFcBGmbGLJO2VLG9kqUUto6dVxt%2B4IXzRFQ39kJnaNC2R47EEv9OqteNbkI1cg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8jo75_qYQ

[Too Tall Bob]

And on another note, please keep in mind when you start shooting hot loads that you may be impacting the life of your targets for your cowboy club

[Mysterious Stranger]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Thanks, I looked them up, $35 isn't a bad price.

 

I've never shown much sensitivity to recoil either, but I still shoot lighter loads because that allows me to get back/stay on target quicker/easier.  Those should be within SASS maximums, barely for your pistols.  Assuming you're shooting shorter than 10 inch barrel pistols you'll lose some FPS and assuming the muzzle velocity drops is linear from 5.2 max to 3.5 minimum (probably not a safe assumption) you're probably under the 1,000 FPS speed limit at 4.4g, but I bet it's not by much.

 

My revolvers have only 4.75" barrels!

[Mysterious Stranger]

28 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

And on another note, please keep in mind when you start shooting hot loads that you may be impacting the life of your targets for your cowboy club

 

No danger of that with my local club's targets! I was shooting the 8" plate knockdowns with 158g bullets flying at 770 fps, so PF = 122, and they would "clang" but NOT drop, unless I hit them very HIGH on the plate, which makes the actual "target zone" pretty small.  So . . . a 130g bullet traveling at 1000 fps means a PF = 130, which might still not be enough! Mind you, the 158g bullet was a swaged, not cast bullet, so the much harder cast bullet should "waste" less of its terminal momentum and energy in deforming the bullet than the swaged bullet did. Hopefully . . .

[Jim Brown]

3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I like the micrometer adjuster from Uniquetech. Once you set up the spread sheet for a particular powder, just enter how many grains you want and set it. I do have to fine tweak a little lot to lot. Way more pricey than the knob though.

And even better on the micrometer adjuster you turn it correctly to tighen (less charge) then loosen to incress charge. 

It also uses much finer thread so fine tuning is easier.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Sounds like you have found a solution for your reloading process. 
I settled on powder weights in conjunction with my 38 special bullet weights years ago when I switched from Clays to TiteGroup. 
158 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

147 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

140 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

125 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

105 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

100 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

though with the 100, it is a load my wife likes but is way too soft for me. 
These days I only change charge weight settings with a new lot of powder. 
Other cartridges have their own tool head (and most  of those have their own measure) so their settings are very rarely changed. 
BTW I check COL every stick (100) of primers, check powder a couple times per stick, check crimps about the same, look for high primers as they go into the catch tray, and spot check as they go into storage cans and again when I load guns at the match. My reloading gear is Dillon 550 & 650. They are very consistent round to round, reliable and easy to work on and with. 
My only real problem’s over the years has been sometimes bullets have been misshapen (causing OAL issues) or have too much lube, cases develop splits or primers have stuck in the pocket due to water or rust. Even those issues are pretty rare if I am keeping an eye on things. I have tried the “match the charge to bullet hardness” thing and to be honest in CAS have found it to be a waste of time. Certainly appreciate your efforts and posts but really don’t see that the level of accuracy you are seeking is worth the effort. We are not doing rocket science just having fun.

Respectfully

    

Gateway Kid

[Mysterious Stranger]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Those wheels are available on EBay from $4.00 and up.  When using them do not forget about the backlash in the screw.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/302046554591?epid=849762724&hash=item465360a9df:g:5iYAAOSwJ7RYSWfV&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8ELo3v5rmhKBhpLeBOndxLtupF3Y3cJYSUP9PCBaNtMWjnyFh9nexEtbT765M3EDyePmjtBpoIZWRvZ5U2y5iPChlUUq2HvwQgY3x2NfFRcKZuXpVOrvIhn2FHnCVaRwJb%2F4SxyA9mPdbwGjLiJquDZI21j0SxxBp%2BzT07X6yE4%2B0rv7Zs3l%2FWESqSTcAXH4xkRTtlzE4wBmS4SLf%2F5ofiboqHcMs6xiGzBgRE1aNcldiU5qtnw4OgJKmoUUrkwmpvK6fFcBGmbGLJO2VLG9kqUUto6dVxt%2B4IXzRFQ39kJnaNC2R47EEv9OqteNbkI1cg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8jo75_qYQ

 

Those wheels on eBay are nowhere near as good. They lack the positive "clicks", much finer numbering, and the fixed side "indexing pointer"  of the Armanov knob. It's those features that make the Armanov setup way more precise, easier, and faster to use.

[Mysterious Stranger]

5 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Sounds like you have found a solution for your reloading process. 
I settled on powder weights in conjunction with my 38 special bullet weights years ago when I switched from Clays to TiteGroup. 
158 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

147 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

140 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

125 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

105 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

100 grain bullet - 3.2 grains TiteGroup 

though with the 100, it is a load my wife likes but is way too soft for me. 
These days I only change charge weight settings with a new lot of powder. 
Other cartridges have their own tool head (and most  of those have their own measure) so their settings are very rarely changed. 
BTW I check COL every stick (100) of primers, check powder a couple times per stick, check crimps about the same, look for high primers as they go into the catch tray, and spot check as they go into storage cans and again when I load guns at the match. My reloading gear is Dillon 550 & 650. They are very consistent round to round, reliable and easy to work on and with. 
My only real problem’s over the years has been sometimes bullets have been misshapen (causing OAL issues) or have too much lube, cases develop splits or primers have stuck in the pocket due to water or rust. Even those issues are pretty rare if I am keeping an eye on things. I have tried the “match the charge to bullet hardness” thing and to be honest in CAS have found it to be a waste of time. Certainly appreciate your efforts and posts but really don’t see that the level of accuracy you are seeking is worth the effort. We are not doing rocket science just having fun.

Respectfully

    

Gateway Kid

 

Yes, I have had no choice but to do a deep dive after those hornady no. 10408 158g swaged bullets were such a disappointment and disaster. As a fellow reloader, you might find it interesting that after changing to 130g bullet, and NOT changing the expander funnel or the seating die, the OD of the top portion of the loaded cases (i.e. the portion that contacts the bullet shank) chnaged from .375" OD to .378"OD!

 

The Hormady bullet was actually being re-swaged by the case when seated into the case! It started at .3578" OD and ended up at .355" OD (The actual measured case walls are in fact just a tiny bit over .010", so this makes sense). I know this because I pulled a couple of the Hornady bullets from the cases after seating and measured them.

 

The .379" OD with the 130g bullets males sense, since those bullets are .358" OD. 358" plus 2x the case thickness = .378". THOSE bullets are RESISTING as they are pushed into the cases, and it is the CASE brass that is stretching, not the bullet compressing, and this is what we want.

 

Those swaged Hornady bullets, which apparently have a BHN of 5, are simply not loadable for decent accuracy in a .357 Magnum firearm unless you use an oversized expander funnel like the UniqueTek. I had already ordered the UniqueTek funnel, so it is on its way to me. But if i had realized what was happening with the Hornady swaged bullets, I should just have abandoned them and gone to the cast bullets sooner.

[Mysterious Stranger]

40 minutes ago, Jim Brown said:

And even better on the micrometer adjuster you turn it correctly to tighen (less charge) then loosen to incress charge. 

It also uses much finer thread so fine tuning is easier.

 

The Armanov knob works the same direction as the micrometer. Tighten for lower charge, loosen to increase charge, as does the Dillon bolthead. I agree that the mircometer can be a much finer adjuster. But, the micrometer is also much harder to read, while the Armanov is very easy even from a distance.

[Eyesa Horg]

5 hours ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

With this new powder adjustment technique, I do not need to have any empty stations. I just stop the press with all stations occupied, as soon as the last case for the current powder setting has been filled at Station 2 and has moved to Station 3. Then, I change the setting on the labeled knob to the new setting, and resume operating the press handle. Then, 3 strokes of the handle complete the loading at the current powder setting. The 4th and subsequent cartridges produced are all at the new number of grains of powder.

Keep in mind that it may take a throw or two for the new setting. There is powder in the slide when you adjust it unless you do it while the handle is still down.

[Eyesa Horg]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

 

The Armanov knob works the same direction as the micrometer. Tighten for lower charge, loosen to increase charge, as does the Dillon bolthead. I agree that the mircometer can be a much finer adjuster. But, the micrometer is also much harder to read, while the Armanov is very easy even from a distance.

How far away do you get when adjusting it?

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Good deal!

Pretty sure most “discoveries” in our lifetime have come about after a bunch of mistakes!

You are of course welcome to use your (obvious) experience in any manner you see fit, just in my opinion you might consider relaxing and just shooting rather than going for ultimate accuracy (not needed in our game) and perfection in matching components and firearms. 
I can absolutely guarantee that if your research leads to a 1/4 inch group of five in testing it won’t make any difference in a match because someone else’s five scattered all over the target will count just as much and will be done in 1/3 the time. As someone who is a relatively accurate shooter I can say that most misses come not from inherent inaccuracy or poor matching of load to gun but rather from improper technique in aiming, cocking, levering or grip. At any level of speed the margin of error from relatively poor technique far outweighs any possible accuracy work in load development. Put another way if you want to create that 1/4” group of five load that is a laudable goal, but a weak grip or poor trigger control (especially at speed) can introduce a swing considerably greater than the target size. 
When I did my pistol load development I strove for a group of about a fifty cent piece for five rounds at a standard CAS pistol distance then worked on controlling my firearms to produce that group at any normal CAS rifle distance at my top speed. Still working on that!

Here are some guidelines for enjoying gun games….

1) Be safe

2) have fun 

3) Don’t sweat the small stuff 

4) remember it is all small stuff 

Respectfully

    

Gateway Kid

[Mysterious Stranger]

19 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Keep in mind that it may take a throw or two for the new setting. There is powder in the slide when you adjust it unless you do it while the handle is still down.

 

Actually, the very first throw was right on in each of the tests I tried. But I always check the first throw anyway.

 

Remember, my scale/dispener combo is only accurate to 0.1g AT BEST.

[Mysterious Stranger]

6 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

How far away do you get when adjusting it?

 

Depends on the height and position of other items on the press at the same time. Like the powder check setup, the electrical wires going to the lights I have installed on the press, the wiring to the casefeeder, etc. Even gettting FINGERS into the area can be difficult, and I have  a terrible time tightening die collars whenever I have to make a change. Toolheads in general are too small for convenient and easy changes.

[Mysterious Stranger]

8 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Good deal!

Pretty sure most “discoveries” in our lifetime have come about after a bunch of mistakes!

You are of course welcome to use your (obvious) experience in any manner you see fit, just in my opinion you might consider relaxing and just shooting rather than going for ultimate accuracy (not needed in our game) and perfection in matching components and firearms. 
I can absolutely guarantee that if your research leads to a 1/4 inch group of five in testing it won’t make any difference in a match because someone else’s five scattered all over the target will count just as much and will be done in 1/3 the time. As someone who is a relatively accurate shooter I can say that most misses come not from inherent inaccuracy or poor matching of load to gun but rather from improper technique in aiming, cocking, levering or grip. At any level of speed the margin of error from relatively poor technique far outweighs any possible accuracy work in load development. Put another way if you want to create that 1/4” group of five load that is a laudable goal, but a weak grip or poor trigger control (especially at speed) can introduce a swing considerably greater than the target size. 
When I did my pistol load development I strove for a group of about a fifty cent piece for five rounds at a standard CAS pistol distance then worked on controlling my firearms to produce that group at any normal CAS rifle distance at my top speed. Still working on that!

Here are some guidelines for enjoying gun games….

1) Be safe

2) have fun 

3) Don’t sweat the small stuff 

4) remember it is all small stuff 

Respectfully

    

Gateway Kid

 

When coupled with the barely usable "authentic" sights, the groups I was getting with the Hornady bullet when I tried to shoot QUICKLY were TOO erratic even for CAS.  

 

I am working to improve BOTH the grouping and the sights. 

 

I want the shooting to be fun, not difficult.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP, are you sure the adjustment nut is 10mm?

Mine is 7/16", and have never heard of a Dillon product using metric fasteners. 

[Blind Squirrel]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Thanks, I looked them up, $35 isn't a bad price.

 

I've never shown much sensitivity to recoil either, but I still shoot lighter loads because that allows me to get back/stay on target quicker/easier.  Those should be within SASS maximums, barely for your pistols.  Assuming you're shooting shorter than 10 inch barrel pistols you'll lose some FPS and assuming the muzzle velocity drops is linear from 5.2 max to 3.5 minimum (probably not a safe assumption) you're probably under the 1,000 FPS speed limit at 4.4g, but I bet it's not by much.

They want 24 bucks to ship it!!

 

[Mysterious Stranger]

3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, are you sure the adjustment nut is 10mm?

Mine is 7/16", and have never heard of a Dillon product using metric fasteners. 

 

No I was being very approximate. Yes, Dillon uses SAE, not metric fasteners. I live in Canada these days, and we have all been brainwashed here to think metric! I try to resist on anyhting related to cars, motorcycles, and shooting . .  . 

[Eyesa Horg]

27 minutes ago, Blind Squirrel said:

They want 24 bucks to ship it!!

 

I think I the micrometer is in the $79 ball park, don't know on shipping.

[Mysterious Stranger]

SHIPPING is a huge problem on everything these days. Even tiny stuff costs at least $25 to ship here in Canada. That makes an Amazon prime account a GREAT deal, because you pay only for the item, and do NOT double its cost when the seller adds shipping. My wife and I use Amazon to buy a LOT of our items these days for that reason. We've even bought $7 items on Amazon and gotten them shipped and delivered to our door at no cost. Hard to beat that.

[Griff]

I like to think i'm a pretty accurate shooter, and apparently my times can reflect that.  I once shot a stage of a "Plainsman" match with my 1885 Low Wall, five shots on a 15 yard target... all five shots were in the same lead smear... all 3 spotters called me for 4 misses.  Sometimes accuracy is not a benefit!  

[Captain Bill Burt]

Back when I was first starting Swift Stoney told me I wasn't using enough of the targets.  I believe I was shooting a double tap sweep on five with the rifle and ended up with two impacts touching on each target in pretty much the center.  I was sweeping left to right. He contended that the first hit on targets 2,3,4 and 5, should have been left of center and the second hits on 2,3, and 4, should have been right of center, so shooting as I transit the target.  Not sure I'm doing that yet, but I bet better shooters than me can do it.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Hey guys, I just visited the UniqueTek webpages for the micrometer adjuster for the Dillon powder measures. Three things:

 

1. It comes in multiple versions, that include the bare micrometer that you install yourself, an option to send in the powder bar you want the mcirometer to be installed within, and he option to buy a micrometer that UniqueTek has itself pre-installed in a brand new powder bar and sends to you. 

 

2. Before deciding that you (a) want this solution and (b) you can install the micrometer properly yourself, read the pdf instructions included on the webpage. Both installation and usage are NOT as easy as you might have thought. It is a really good solution if you understand the usage instructions, but some people will not understand them. And the install requires pretty significant attention to detail, a thread cutting tool (to be used as a teflon coating remover) that most people probably don't have in their shop, and it has plenty of opportunities for screwing up the parts.

 

3. The cost of the 3 potential ways to buy are significantly different, and FAR higher than the cost of a calibrated knob for the OEM Dillon 7/16 bolt.

 

This is NOT a "drop-in" installation. Look carefully before deciding that you can DIY it. 

 

[watab kid]

that looks like a handy add on to the dillon , i dont shoot that powder -never have- settings for your favorite can be developed and i see where that would be beneficial , thanks for the link - i have a friend running the dillon gear who will perhaps benefit from this , 

[Hoss]

I got one of these from Titan reloading. Works very well. 

https://www.titanreloading.com/product/easydial-large-bar/