A plug for allowing the gunfighter shooting style in age-based categories

[Mister Badly]

8 hours ago, Preacherman said:

A gunfighter must shoot the stage in the same order as everybody else. If spotters are watching you they're not watching the targets. If they're watching the targets they should notice absolutely no difference in the bang and clangs. The gunfighter perception issue from others is just in the mind. Gunfighter for everything! Yea ha!

Round count stages can surprise spotters who have been watching traditional or duelist shooters. A 5 target 2 shots per target stage can be shot many different ways by gunfighters

[Equanimous Phil]

On 3/24/2022 at 1:48 AM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I do not want it to be said that there would not be unintended consequences of making a rule change like this.

[...]

By allowing people in age-based categories to shoot in any style at their discretion, a couple penalties would go away for people shooting in age base categories.

 

What about the rule (SHB 26.2, p.7) "A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence" ?

Does this rule currently also apply for B-Western shooters? Please note that the SHB in some case explicitely says "gunfighter style category competitors" (and in another thread we learned that "duelist" doesn't include "duelist style", so ... ). Does the rule just apply the moment the BW shooter actually shoots GF style? Would the rule apply for age based categories etc. if allowed to shoot GF style?

 

Btw, I wasn't able to figure out what penalty a GF gets for not abiding the rule. Neither mentioned in the Gunfighter Style section nor the Penalties Overview nor the RO Pocket Card.

 

Equanimous

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

"A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence" ?

Does this rule currently also apply for B-Western shooters?

If shooting in the gunfighter style, yes.

 

It is also important to note that participants in B western are able to choose their shooting style at their discretion.

 

This means, on a stage with split pistols, a B Western shooter could shoot the first five shots in the gunfighter style, stage the pistols for later reuse, and, when the time came, pick up and fire the remaining five rounds in the two pistols in the traditional style.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

 

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

Btw, I wasn't able to figure out what penalty a GF gets for not abiding the rule. Neither mentioned in the Gunfighter Style section nor the Penalties Overview nor the RO Pocket Card.

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

...

Btw, I wasn't able to figure out what penalty a GF gets for not abiding the rule. Neither mentioned in the Gunfighter Style section nor the Penalties Overview nor the RO Pocket Card.

 

The penalty is the progressive P/SDQ/MDQ for "Shooting out of category"

Quote

Failure to comply with the rules for any shooting style category will result in the progressive penalty for “Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the shooting category” (see penalties section).

SHB p.6 - SHOOTING STYLE CATEGORIES
REF: SHB pp.22-24 - Penalties Overview

REF also: "Shooting out of Category"(last line on the Pocket RO Card)
SHB p.41
Also:
"Shooting out of category – failure to adhere to category-specific requirements/restrictions."
SHB p.44 - Glossary of Terms

 

 

[Equanimous Phil]

Thank you both for the clarifications! Especially the example in the video I find very interesting with the result of a No-Call due to the lack of intent. I assume quite a couple of TOs would make the wrong call in that situation.

[Tennessee williams]

3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If shooting in the gunfighter style, yes.

 

 

You already knew what I was going to ask when you seen I quoted you.

If a BW shooter gets a P for holstering his guns for later use while shooting in the gunfighter style, would they in turn also get a penalty for having 2 loaded guns out while shooting in the traditional style if they misscount their 1st pistol and table it with a live round still in the cylinder and begin to fire their 2nd pistol in the traditional style as well?

[Wicker Nash]

I always found the restriction to just Gunfighters odd.  wouldn’t it make more sense from a safety stand point for the rule to be sometime like this:

 

No competitor may holster a pistol, containing unfired cartridges, with the intent to engage another revolver sequence. 

 

This would cover all styles.  

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

If a BW shooter gets a P for holstering his guns for later use while shooting in the gunfighter style, would they in turn also get a penalty for having 2 loaded guns out while shooting in the traditional style if they misscount their 1st pistol and table it with a live round still in the cylinder and begin to fire their 2nd pistol in the traditional style as well?

 

No Call as a B-western shooter is allowed to shoot in any style, including gunfighter, and change style at any time. So, in effect, they cannot be penalized for having 2 loaded pistols in hand (or in hand and on the table) at the same time.

 

They are able to change shooting styles at their discretion. This was clarified at the EOT 2016 TG meeting

 

http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/EoT TG meeting 2016 (edited).pdf

 

Quote

B-Western pistol style: B-Western shooters may change their pistol shooting style in the middle of the pistol string. This is already a rule; just a clarification. Example: Shooter can start shooting gunfighter for 5 rounds, place pistols on table to shoot a long gun and then shoot each gun in a traditional style.

 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

All I will say is good luck. I fought this fight for 10 or 12 years and never could gain any traction on it. Same arguments, it will be the ruination of the GF category, all these folks that don't know how to shoot GF will be a menace to those around them, TO's and spotters will be so surprised that they will miss calls.

[Don Jorge]

So, what would be the process for this to be changed and when would the new rule(s) take effect?

[Tennessee williams]

21 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

No Call as a B-western shooter is allowed to shoot in any style, including gunfighter, and change style at any time. So, in effect, they cannot be penalized for having 2 loaded pistols in hand (or in hand and on the table) at the same time.

 

They are able to change shooting styles at their discretion. This was clarified at the EOT 2016 TG meeting

 

http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/EoT TG meeting 2016 (edited).pdf

 

 

Probably the way it is, but probably not the way it SHOULD be. 

Common sense tells us that gunfighter is the only style that can have 2 loaded pistols out at once. Gunfighter style cannot have 2 hands on the revolver. If they have 2 hands on the revolver, they're not shooting gunfighter style. Therefore with one loaded pistol grounded that came from holster is "in hand". The second the bw shooter cocks the 2nd pistol with a supporting hand he shot out of category one of two ways. Either as a traditional shooter with 2 loaded guns out at one time, or as a gunfighter shooting with a supporting hand. Why not call either one? It's a clear violation any way you look at it.

This doesn't make any sense to me. If the reasoning a gunfighter gets a P for out of category for holstering a pistol with the intention of using it later while shooting gunfighter style(even though your reasoning for my scenario is they can change styles instantly) why can't they change style instantly in your scenario?

In my scenario, there is NO CATEGORY that allows you to shoot as the shooter did. Why are they immune because they can change categories at will? There's NO CATEGORY to change to that allows it.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

TN,

Soooooooo, you are stating (or asking a question) that there is NO CATEGORY that allows 2 loaded guns out of the holsters at the same time

and fire one of the pistols with a supported hand (2 handed).

 

To me, it would seem like if someone did that, it could be construed as shooting Out Of Category, regardless of category.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

1 minute ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

TN,

Soooooooo, you are stating (or asking a question) that there is NO CATEGORY that allows 2 loaded guns out of the holsters at the same time

and fire one of the pistols with a supported hand (2 handed).

 

To me, it would seem like if someone did that, it could be construed as shooting Out Of Category, regardless of category.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Yessir, that was what I was stating. To me shooting BW category let's you choose which style you want to shoot, not combine all three at the same time. Traditional and duelist shooters can't have 2 out at the same time. A Gunfighter and a duelist can't fire with a supporting hand. The shooter with a loaded revolver on the table that came from holster and firing traditional is out of category regardless of what category style they are shooting. We have no shooting style that allows 2 loaded pistols out at the same time AND be fired with a supporting hand. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

So, @Tennessee williams and @Widder, SASS #59054

 

Split pistol stage with a B-Western Shooter.

 

Shooter starts with shotgun shoots clean.

 

Moves to first pistol position.

 

shooter shoots the first 5 shots as a gunfighter. 

 

Where do the pistols go after firing the first 5 shots?

 

Our case, shooter stages the pistols on the table.

 

They shoot the rifle and come back to the pistols.

 

They pick up the first pistol and shoot 2 rounds out of it in the traditional style. 

 

Ground it on the table. 

 

Pick up the second pistol, shoot 2 rounds out of it in the traditional style. Engages a third time and CLICK.

 

Grounds pistol 2 on the table. Picks up pistol one and shoots the last round out of it.

 

Where in the above scenario are the applicable penalties that you are describing that should be there?

[Tennessee williams]

32 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

So, @Tennessee williams

 

Split pistol stage with a B-Western Shooter.

 

Shooter starts with shotgun shoots clean.

 

Moves to first pistol position.

 

shooter shoots the first 5 shots as a gunfighter. 

You don't mention if all rounds come out of one pistol or some from each, but that is moot.

32 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Where do the pistols go after firing the first 5 shots?

 

Our case, shooter stages the pistols on the table.

 

They shoot the rifle and come back to the pistols.

It has been all gunfighter style up to this point.

32 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

They pick up the first pistol and shoot 2 rounds out of it in the traditional style. 

Here is where the muddy comes in BECAUSE the ROC or advisory committee has not came back yet to tell us if a pistol initially staged on a prop is considered still in hand with regards to the two guns out at the same time rule. If it's a no call from them on that, it would be no call so far on this as well. If it IS a call, here would be the P when they miscounted. That's why in my scenario, I used initially holstered revolvers. To me with split pistols you would have 2 separate strings which would make the 2nd string begin with initially staged on prop guns.

  Nobody knows as of yet if a traditional or duelist shooter with pistols initially staged on a prop misscounts and lays the first pistol back down and fires the 2nd pistol gets a P for out of category as they would if the pistols came from the holster initially. We're still waiting on clarification. Common sense to me it's a no call but we know how that can go.

32 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Ground it on the table. 

 

Pick up the second pistol, shoot 2 rounds out of it in the traditional style. Engages a third time and CLICK.

 

Grounds pistol 2 on the table. Picks up pistol one and shoots the last round out of it.

 

Where in the above scenario are the applicable penalties that you are describing that should be there?

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Nobody knows as of yet if a traditional or duelist shooter with pistols initially staged on a prop misscounts and lays the first pistol back down and fires the 2nd pistol gets a P for out of category as they would if the pistols came from the holster initially. We're still waiting on clarification. Common sense to me it's a no call but we know how that can go.

We know that. That is already been stated.

 

If the guns were initially staged on the prop, the shooter miscounts, places it back on the prop, they are still clean as the pistols initially started on the prop. They have until conclusion of the string to ensure that both pistols are holstered UNLESS the instructions state the pistols may be returned to the prop. Then you don't have to worry about holstering them at the conclusion of the shooting string.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Quote

Here is where the muddy comes in BECAUSE the ROC or advisory committee has not came back yet to tell us if a pistol initially staged on a prop is considered still in hand with regards to the two guns out at the same time rule.

 

@Tennessee williams   don't wait for @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

 

If the pistols started off staged, they meet the following highlighted condition:

SHB pg 44

Quote

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged.

 

And, according to convention

 

SHB pg 14

Quote

Only Gunfighters and B-Western categories allow two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time. This may be corrected in regard to any other categories before cocking either one without penalty.

 

SHB pg 14

Quote

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

So, B-Western competitor allow two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time regardless of the style they are shooting in at the given point in time.

 

Additionally, If the revolvers started off staged, they are not considered in hand unless they are out of leather or broken contact with the prop in which they were staged. If revolvers started off staged, they have until the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise, to return the revolvers to leather.

 

 

 

 

See this post for more information

 

[Tennessee williams]

36 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

We know that. That is already been stated.

 

If the guns were initially staged on the prop, the shooter miscounts, places it back on the prop, they are still clean as the pistols initially started on the prop. They have until conclusion of the string to ensure that both pistols are holstered UNLESS the instructions state the pistols may be returned to the prop. Then you don't have to worry about holstering them at the conclusion of the shooting string.

How do we know that? When did the clarification come out? As of January 14th, it had not come out yet.

[Tennessee williams]

Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

Posted 2 hours ago

  Quote

Here is where the muddy comes in BECAUSE the ROC or advisory committee has not came back yet to tell us if a pistol initially staged on a prop is considered still in hand with regards to the two guns out at the same time rule.

 

@Tennessee williams   don't wait for @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

 

If the pistols started off staged, they meet the following highlighted condition:

SHB pg 44

  Quote

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged.

According to PWB in December '21 he needed to clarify whether or not a pistol that started out on a prop was indeed a no call if someone miscounted when it was returned to the prop loaded while they shot the 2nd revolver.

 

 

And, according to convention

 

SHB pg 14

  Quote

Only Gunfighters and B-Western categories allow two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time. This may be corrected in regard to any other categories before cocking either one without penalty.

 

SHB pg 14

  Quote

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

Expand  

 

So, B-Western competitor allow two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time regardless of the style they are shooting in at the given point in time.

 

I dont see how the above two quotes translates to "regardless of the style they are shooting in at any given time"

 

For simplicity,  lets go back to my original scenario where the pistols started from leather.

 

 

There is the rule:

 

That states a b-western shooter may shoot revolvers in ANY sass legal shooting style, at the shooters' discretion. 

We know there is NO sass legal category that allows 2 revolvers in hand at once while firing with a supporting hand. If the Bwestern shooter is firing with a supporting hand, he or she cannot be shooting in the gunfighter style. That's explicitly not allowed. So they're shooting in the traditional style. Therefore can only have one out at a time. If they were shooting in the gunfighter style, they would receive a P for out of category for using the supporting hand. I'm all for allowing what needs to be allowed but I can't see both. Seems to me, one or the other.

 

I created the last thread quoted a while back for a spin off. You know there's always a reason I ask something.

 

 

[Doc Shapiro]

9 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Probably the way it is, but probably not the way it SHOULD be. 

Common sense tells us that gunfighter is the only style that can have 2 loaded pistols out at once. Gunfighter style cannot have 2 hands on the revolver. If they have 2 hands on the revolver, they're not shooting gunfighter style. Therefore with one loaded pistol grounded that came from holster is "in hand". The second the bw shooter cocks the 2nd pistol with a supporting hand he shot out of category one of two ways. Either as a traditional shooter with 2 loaded guns out at one time, or as a gunfighter shooting with a supporting hand. Why not call either one? It's a clear violation any way you look at it.

This doesn't make any sense to me. If the reasoning a gunfighter gets a P for out of category for holstering a pistol with the intention of using it later while shooting gunfighter style(even though your reasoning for my scenario is they can change styles instantly) why can't they change style instantly in your scenario?

In my scenario, there is NO CATEGORY that allows you to shoot as the shooter did. Why are they immune because they can change categories at will? There's NO CATEGORY to change to that allows it.

 

To just troll.  Why would this matter in a non-GF only category?  Is the shooter being safe?  That's, in my mind, the important part.  After that, for the age based categories, it shouldn't matter how the shooter chooses to engage the targets, so long as they are safe.  2 loaded revolvers out at once?  Sure.  Just make sure muzzles don't break the 170. 

 

Split pistol sequences and 1 is shot GF style and the other is 2-hands per gun?  Sure!  What's the problem. 

 

In this situation, I don't think a shooter should HAVE to shoot a stage following GF rules.  Just open it up to shooter choice.  So long as they are safe.

 

Just my feeble thoughts.

[Tennessee williams]

55 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

To just troll.  Why would this matter in a non-GF only category?  Is the shooter being safe?  That's, in my mind, the important part.  After that, for the age based categories, it shouldn't matter how the shooter chooses to engage the targets, so long as they are safe.  2 loaded revolvers out at once?  Sure.  Just make sure muzzles don't break the 170. 

 

Split pistol sequences and 1 is shot GF style and the other is 2-hands per gun?  Sure!  What's the problem. 

 

In this situation, I don't think a shooter should HAVE to shoot a stage following GF rules.  Just open it up to shooter choice.  So long as they are safe.

 

Just my feeble thoughts.

I don't disagree. Seems some things are safe for one category and not safe for another. If I'm following correctly.

[Doc Shapiro]

2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I don't disagree. Seems some things are safe for one category and not safe for another. If I'm following correctly.

 

That's what I'm getting at.  For GF category, rules necessarily have to be more strict.  For an "open" age based category, it would be much more about safe gun handling.

 

I hope that made sense.  For the age based categories, it should be about more than opening it up to GF style.  It should be focused more on shoot the revolvers in a way that makes you happy, just be safe and follow the appropriate rules. 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

In the past, if pistols were split GF's would shoot it double duelist style.  Don't know when that changed.  (another reason I don't TO anymore)

[Joe LaFives #5481]

On 3/23/2022 at 4:49 PM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

This is one of the discussion items in the eot territorial Governor meeting

 

 

 

One thing that was not listed...

 

By allowing participants in age-based categories to shoot in a gunfighter style, this would allow folks who have adjustable site revolvers to shoot in the gunfighter style.

 

As it stands, duelists shooting adjustable site revolvers have a place to go, but gunfighters do not.

No duelists can shoot adjustable sight revolvers anymore.  That was changed around 3 years ago I believe - UNLESS they changed it back  ????   -  Another rule though that makes NO sense btw, we've already determined that adjustable sight revolvers have no advantage.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Just now, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

No duelists can shoot adjustable sight revolvers anymore.  That was changed around 3 years ago I believe - UNLESS they changed it back  ????

A competitor shooting in an age-based category can use adjustable sight revolvers.

 

A competitor shooting in an age-based category can shoot in the traditional or duelist style.

 

Therefore a competitor can shoot in the duelist style with adjustable site revolvers in an age-based category.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

3 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

A competitor shooting in an age-based category can use adjustable sight revolvers.

 

A competitor shooting in an age-based category can shoot in the traditional or duelist style.

 

Therefore a competitor can shoot in the duelist style with adjustable site revolvers in an age-based category.

You choose the style and then the age.  Duelists must use fixed sight revolvers

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

9 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

In the past, if pistols were split GF's would shoot it double duelist style.  Don't know when that changed.  (another reason I don't TO anymore)

 

SHB pg 7

Quote

Stage design may allow a competitor shooting Gunfighter style to stage or restage revolvers between target sequences. If the shooter’s hands are otherwise constrained (e.g., rolling the dice between revolver sequences), the revolvers must be drawn and shot one at a time (double duelist) unless they can be safely staged rather than holstered. In this case, both revolvers may be employed at the same time for the first five rounds, safely restaged, and then employed at the same time again for the second five rounds. 

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

You are confusing some that chooses - Senior but not duelist - they can choose to shoot duelist style but not AS A DUELIST

[Joe LaFives #5481]

1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

SHB pg 7

 

Got it, but not re-holstered.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

3 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

You choose the style and then the age.  Duelists must use fixed sight revolvers

That is not entirely true. If someone wants to shoot in a duelist category, they must use fixed site revolvers.

 

If someone wants to shoot in a age-based category, they do not.

 

SHB pg 5

Quote

AGE BASED CATEGORIES

 Age based categories are offered to allow all participants to compete amongst their peers. Age based categories carry the following guidelines:

- May use any main match revolver.

- Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style – EXCEPT Gunfighter.

- May use any SASS legal main match shotgun and any legal main match rifle.

- May use any SASS legal ammunition. 

 

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

2 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

You are confusing some that chooses - Senior but not duelist - they can choose to shoot duelist style but not AS A DUELIST

 

No, I believe that it is you who is confusing age-based categories with shooting style categories which can have age subdivisions.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

No, I believe that it is you who is confusing age-based categories with shooting style categories which can have age subdivisions.

I shoot senior and silver senior duelist - pretty sure I'm right.  Checking with Pale Wolf now - as I remember that they changed it.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

4 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I shoot senior and silver senior duelist - pretty sure I'm right.  Checking with Pale Wolf now - as I remember that they changed it.

 

Silver Senior Duelist is an age subdivision of a shooting style category.

 

SHB pg 5-6

Quote

AGE BASED CATEGORIES

Age based categories are offered to allow all participants to compete amongst their peers. Age based categories carry the following guidelines:

- May use any main match revolver.

- Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style – EXCEPT Gunfighter.

- May use any SASS legal main match shotgun and any legal main match rifle.

- May use any SASS legal ammunition. 

 

 

SHOOTING STYLE CATEGORIES

Shooting Style categories allow participants to compete with others utilizing the same shooting style (e.g., shooting revolvers one-handed instead of two-handed). In addition, every shooting style can also be subdivided by gender, age, and propellant depending on demand and sanctioning category mandates. Failure to comply with the rules for any shooting style category will result in the progressive penalty for “Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the shooting category” (see penalties section).

 

Duelist Style

- Duelist – Duelist style is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired onehanded and unsupported. The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the offhand except when resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem or when transferring the revolver from one hand to the other.

- Duelists may shoot one revolver right-handed and one revolver left-handed in what is commonly referred to as “Double Duelist”. Double Duelist is NOT a standalone shooting category.

- Duelist Rules: o Any main match, fixed sight model revolver may be used.

o Any SASS legal main match shotgun and legal main match rifle may be used.

o Any SASS legal ammunition may be used.

o Only duelist style or double duelist style may be used.

o The competitor shall not have two loaded revolvers in hand at once. (This may be corrected before cocking either one without penalty.)

o Cross-draw holsters are allowed by any competitor shooting

 

 

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Just got a reply from my message to Pale Wolf - I am correct. I've asked him to chime in here.  If he doesn't then I will copy and paste his reply.