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Wolfgang, SASS #53480

The armed citizen protecting their property

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2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

My opinion on this incident has nothing to do with legality, the right of self-Defense, BLM, any political party, liberal or conservative philosophy, the 2nd amendment, or trespassing. 
It is simply about the actions these two people took in this particular situation. 
My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that stepping out of the house armed and confrontational was a defective tactic defective at best and downright foolhardy at worst.

 

You said on the first page that's not how you woulda handled it.  I'm not sure how I would have handled it, but I'd like to hear what you would have done.  You have a lot more experience in things like this.  Lets assume that their claims of being threatened are correct because I haven't even heard the protesters deny them.  Lets also assume you live in their house because I'm sure your own property is quite a bit different (as is mine).  You've seen the videos of what's been happening recently and would take notice and do something.  What would that something be. 

 

Same question to anyone with law enforcement and/or combat experience.  I have neither so I'm just wondering. 

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7 hours ago, Alpo said:

Cover and concealment is a fine idea, if you are going to be shooting at someone. Makes it harder for them to shoot back, or at least harder for them to hit you when they do shhot back.

 

It looked to me however, as if these people did not wish to shoot. They wished instead to scare off the trespassers.

 

So they stepped outside and made a show of force. It worked.

 

I don't believe I would have made that choice. But it worked for them.

 

That's what I was thinking too.  Like Sun Tsu said, when you are weak appear strong to scare off the enemy.  When you are strong, appear weak so as to lure them into your trap.  They looked like they didn't want to shoot. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

You said on the first page that's not how you woulda handled it.  I'm not sure how I would have handled it, but I'd like to hear what you would have done.  You have a lot more experience in things like this.  Lets assume that their claims of being threatened are correct because I haven't even heard the protesters deny them.  Lets also assume you live in their house because I'm sure your own property is quite a bit different (as is mine).  You've seen the videos of what's been happening recently and would take notice and do something.  What would that something be. 

 

Same question to anyone with law enforcement and/or combat experience.  I have neither so I'm just wondering. 

 No law enforcement and/or combat experience, but I'll offer my thoughts anyway

First KNOW your state's laws regarding under what circumstances lethal force is allowed.

 

Under the circumstances known to us at this point, I would have stayed in the house, locked the door, called 911, loaded up the guns and retreated within the house to a choke point (staircase, hallway, etc) of my choosing.

 

CT law is essentially in reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm or arson of an inhabited dwelling.  Given the political climate in CT and the cost of a good lawyer for a trial*, I am not going to shot unless I absolutely have to.

 

*Figure at least $50,000.  Reportedly George Zimmerman owes his attorneys $2.5 million in legal fees

 

 

Edited by Chantry

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Chantry said:

First KNOW your state's laws regarding under what circumstances lethal force is allowed.

 

They were both criminal defense attorneys.  So while i don't know their laws, I'm betting they did.  Or at least thought they did.  I read elsewhere that they already had legal justification to blast away.  I'm watching the wire's legal scholars dig into that with interest. 

 

On an unrelated note, there was at least 1, but maybe as many as 3 protesters who did an amazing job of de-escalating things.  I only watched the entire video once so I can't remember how many there were.  They were the guys herding everyone away from the area. 

 

Edited by Ramblin Gambler
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29 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

They were both criminal defense attorneys.  So while i don't know their laws, I'm betting they did.  Or at least thought they did.  I read elsewhere that they already had legal justification to blast away.  I'm watching the wire's legal scholars dig into that with interest. 

 

On an unrelated note, there was at least 1, but maybe as many as 3 protesters who did an amazing job of de-escalating things.  I only watched the entire video once so I can't remember how many there were.  They were the guys herding everyone away from the area. 

 

 

They may very well have known their state's laws, that doesn't mean they made the right choice. 

 

Look what happened to George Zimmerman, he made made a poor choice and now he is broke, unemployable and $2+ million in debt even though he was found innocent and didn't break any laws in his state (or most other states as well).

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2 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

You said on the first page that's not how you woulda handled it.  I'm not sure how I would have handled it, but I'd like to hear what you would have done.  You have a lot more experience in things like this.  Lets assume that their claims of being threatened are correct because I haven't even heard the protesters deny them.  Lets also assume you live in their house because I'm sure your own property is quite a bit different (as is mine).  You've seen the videos of what's been happening recently and would take notice and do something.  What would that something be. 

 

Same question to anyone with law enforcement and/or combat experience.  I have neither so I'm just wondering. 

 

As a veteran who trained to kick in doors and have fun among other things, I'll answer with my thoughts at the moment. Assuming they were threatened, and assuming they saw a credible threat, meaning the presence of firearms or weapons with the protestors, and leaving the criticism of their firearms handling aside, my thinking is as follows:

 

First, contact 911, if for no other reason to create a record that I fear for my safety. Explicitly mentioning the threats and whether I saw weapons and what types.

If I believe someone is armed, I wouldn't make a target of myself, I would seek cover. Whether that is the massive pillars on the porch or indoors, I prefer to make myself as small as possible. If things had gone bad, they needed to retreat to cover, and they were actively moving away from the ingress to their home. He mentioned a front wall in an interview, meaning someone intent on causing harm might have immediate cover of their own, adding to the disadvantage.

 

There were times they didn't seem to be fully aware of where their partner was, particularly her, and they didn't seem to communicate. As I mentioned before, I would have had Mrs. Doc upstairs with her long gun of choice and I would be downstairs. Partly because they would have to go through me to get to her, I am more mobile at the moment, among other reasons. That is in our house, which is small enough for us to communicate by raising our voices. Given the size of their home, I generally agree with @Chantry that finding a choke point, a "fatal funnel," if possible inside the home might be ideal, and both of us concentrating on that spot might make more sense.
 

As minuscule as it may seem, put on shoes.

 

If my thoughts change, based on the ideas of others, I'll let you know.

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It appears it might have been a better choice to stay inside and observe if they were marching by and not coming off the street directly towards their house. But I wouldn't retreat to a choke point and allow them to start destroying my house at will without confronting them first. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

It appears it might have been a better choice to stay inside and observe if they were marching by and not coming off the street directly towards their house. But I wouldn't retreat to a choke point and allow them to start destroying my house at will without confronting them first. 

 

You make a valid point, and I should say that inherent in my mind is the presumption that the first and best obvious fatal funnel is the doorway into the home.

Edited by DocWard
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On 6/30/2020 at 9:36 AM, Patagonia Pete said:

Looks like another "staged" media event.

 

I wondered this as well.  In an extended video, when they get the gate open, the third person through is wearing a suit, and using a walkie talkie, and it's like as soon as the person with the camera with the phone gets through the gate and aims it at the house, you can hear Mr Pink yelling about trespassing.

 

But in this day and age, who knows what to believe.

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4 hours ago, DocWard said:

 

You make a valid point, and I should say that inherent in my mind is the presumption that the first and best obvious fatal funnel is the doorway into the home.

 

That's what I was thinking when the first mention of the "fatal funnel" appeared.

 

Why let 30 or 40 thugs into my house, and then shoot them after they had to bunch up going up the stairs or down the hallway? Why not just shoot them as they come in the door?

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26 minutes ago, Alpo said:

 

That's what I was thinking when the first mention of the "fatal funnel" appeared.

 

Why let 30 or 40 thugs into my house, and then shoot them after they had to bunch up going up the stairs or down the hallway? Why not just shoot them as they come in the door?

30 or 40. No. Just 1. The rest will have a decision to make.

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There's a good reason why Antifa and BLM don't riot and loot in small towns.

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