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Subdeacon Joe

How Is Your Spanish?

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The oldest Mexican cookbook in the University of Texas at San Antonio’s (UTSA) collection was never meant for public consumption. Handwritten in 1789 by Doña Ignacita, a woman who probably served as the kitchen manager for a well-to-do family, the manuscript includes recipes for such specialties as “hidden vegetable stew,” or potaje escondido, and an orange-hued soup called zopa de naranja.

 

https://digital.utsa.edu/digital/collection/p15125coll10/search/searchterm/mexican cookbooks/field/subcol/mode/all/conn/or

 

https://digital.utsa.edu/digital/collection/p15125coll10/id/14606/rec/42

 

https://www.latinpost.com/articles/11152/20140425/the-university-of-texas-san-antonio-preserves-mexican-culture-collection-mexican-cookbooks.htm

 

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I wonder how those recipes stand up to today’s tastes?

Sounds very intriguing!

 

Cat Brules

 

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¿Mi Español?

 

Así así.

 

Puedo preguntar por los baños.

 

;)

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Being 230 years old it would be neither Castilian nor Mexican Spanish, a bit of a challenge.

 

There are others that are from the 1800s and early 1900s.  This one, for example
https://digital.utsa.edu/digital/collection/p15125coll10/id/11527

Title 20th Century Mexican Cooking Manuscripts. Volume 1: Libro de Resetas
Creator Palacio, Susana Irazoqui
Date-Original 1907
Description

One of six early 20th century manuscript cookbooks written in ink and pencil by family of related women from Durango with different handwriting of traditional home recipes. The recipes provide an intimate view of cookery during a time of great change in Mexico.

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Edited by Subdeacon Joe
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50 minutes ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Being 230 years old it would be neither Castilian nor Mexican Spanish, a bit of a challenge.

You are absolutely right about that.  Spanish is my vernacular, but if I try to read something that was written before the 19th century, say, anything by Cervantes, I would almost need a dictionary.  It's like trying to read something written in English in Elizabethan times.    

 

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I don't claim to be any sort of expert on Spanish culture, but I have trouble visualizing them referring to the kitchen help as "Doña".

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Yes, me too.  However, those terms were also often used in respect of age, knowledge and position and not just wealth.

 

Cat Brules

 

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1 hour ago, Alpo said:

I don't claim to be any sort of expert on Spanish culture, but I have trouble visualizing them referring to the kitchen help as "Doña".

 

"Cuaderno de Cosina de Doña Ignacia del ???" could also mean something like "Notes from the Kitchen of Her Ladyship Ignacia ..." meaning not that she is the cook but that it is a compilation of recipes she likes.  But I do think that Cat was likely closer with his observation: 

42 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:

Yes, me too.  However, those terms were also often used in respect of age, knowledge and position and not just wealth.

 

Cat Brules

 

 

a term of respect for the mistress of the kitchen.

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Maybe.

 

But in the Old South I don't believe the slave that ran the kitchen in the big house, for Master Robert and Mistress Nancy would be called Mistress Sara.

 

In England I do not believe that Lord and Lady Johnson's kitchen would be overseen by Lady Nancy.

 

So it just doesn't seem right that the kitchen en el hacienda de Don Alejandro y Doña Maria would be overseen by Doña Ignacia.

 

Unless maybe Doña Ignacia was the old maid sister of Doña Maria, living off the charity of her sister and her brother-in-law, and she ran the kitchen to make herself feel that she was not a sponge.

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The cursive is wonderful!

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Trying to decipher that first of the second recipes.

 

I think it's a chocolate cake. Not sure if that says FORDA or FORSA , but I can't find a translation for either. And I can't figure out the capacities.

 

But it takes butter, milk, sugar, flour and eggs, so that sounds like a cake.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Dawg Hair, SASS #29557 said:

It's like trying to read something written in English in Elizabethan times.

And the problem is....?

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It’s easy to read, follow and understand Elizabethan English.  If I read it now for a short time, I still begin to adopt the archaic words and speech pattern.   
 

Cat Brules

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On 2/15/2020 at 6:16 AM, Dawg Hair, SASS #29557 said:

It's like trying to read something written in English in Elizabethan times.    

 

 

More towards Chaucer than Elizabethan.  Or Church Slavonic to modern Russian.

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Any of it.

 

Cat Brules

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3 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

More towards Chaucer than Elizabethan.  Or Church Slavonic to modern Russian.

Like reading 1601 by Mark Twain.

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20 minutes ago, Dawg Hair, SASS #29557 said:

Like reading 1601 by Mark Twain.

 

 

You mean this?  Being, in part, thus:

Quote

YESTERNIGHT toke her maiste ye queene a fantasie such as she sometimes hath, and had to her closet certain that doe write playes, bokes, and such like, these being my lord Bacon, his worship Sir Walter Ralegh, Mr. Ben Jonson, and ye child Francis Beaumonte, which being but sixteen, hath yet turned his hand to ye doing of ye Lattin masters into our Englishe tong, with grete discretion and much applaus. Also came with these ye famous Shaxpur. A righte straunge mixing truly of mighty blode with mean, ye more in especial since ye queenes grace was present, as likewise these following, to wit: Ye Duchess of Bilgewater, twenty-six yeres of age; ye Countesse of Granby, thirty; her doter, ye Lady Helen, fifteen; as also these two maides of honor, to-wit, ye Lady Margery Boothy, sixty-five, and ye Lady Alice Dilberry, turned seventy, she being two yeres ye queenes graces elder.

I being her maites cup-bearer, had no choice but to remaine and beholde rank forgot, and ye high holde converse wh ye low as uppon equal termes, a grete scandal did ye world heare thereof.

In ye heat of ye talk it befel yt one did breake wind, yielding an exceding mightie and distresfull stink, whereat all did laugh full sore, and then—

Ye Queene.—Verily in mine eight and sixty yeres have I not heard the fellow to this fart. Meseemeth, by ye grete sound and clamour of it, it was male; yet ye belly it did lurk behinde shoulde now fall lean and flat against ye spine of him yt hath bene delivered of so stately and so waste a bulk, where as ye guts of them yt doe quiff-splitters bear, stand comely still and rounde. Prithee let ye author confess ye offspring. Will my Lady Alice testify?

Lady Alice.—Good your grace, an' I had room for such a thunderbust within mine ancient bowels, 'tis not in reason I coulde discharge ye same and live to thank God for yt He did choose handmaid so humble whereby to shew his power. Nay, 'tis not I yt have broughte forth this rich o'ermastering fog, this fragrant gloom, so pray you seeke ye further.

Ye Queene.—Mayhap ye Lady Margery hath done ye companie this favor?

Lady Margery.—So please you madam, my limbs are feeble wh ye weighte and drouth of five and sixty winters, and it behoveth yt I be tender unto them. In ye good providence of God, an' I had contained this wonder, forsoothe wolde I have gi'en 'ye whole evening of my sinking life to ye dribbling of it forth, with trembling and uneasy soul, not launched it sudden in its matchless might, taking mine own life with violence, rending my weak frame like rotten rags. It was not I, your maisty.

Ye Queene.—O' God's name, who hath favored us? Hath it come to pass yt a fart shall fart itself? Not such a one as this, I trow. Young Master Beaumont—but no; 'twould have wafted him to heaven like down of goose's boddy. 'Twas not ye little Lady Helen—nay, ne'er blush, my child; thoul't tickle thy tender maidenhedde with many a mousie-squeak before thou learnest to blow a harricane like this. Wasn't you, my learned and ingenious Jonson?

Jonson.—So fell a blast hath ne'er mine ears saluted, nor yet a stench so all-pervading and immortal. 'Twas not a novice did it, good your maisty, but one of veteran experience—else hadde he failed of confidence. In sooth it was not I.

Ye Queene.—My lord Bacon?

Lord Bacon.-Not from my leane entrailes hath this prodigy burst forth, so please your grace. Naught doth so befit ye grete as grete performance; and haply shall ye finde yt 'tis not from mediocrity this miracle hath issued.

[Tho' ye subjct be but a fart, yet will this tedious sink of learning pondrously phillosophize. Meantime did the foul and deadly stink pervade all places to that degree, yt never smelt I ye like, yet dare I not to leave ye presence, albeit I was like to suffocate.]

Ye Queene.—What saith ye worshipful Master Shaxpur?

Shaxpur.—In the great hand of God I stand and so proclaim mine innocence. Though ye sinless hosts of heaven had foretold ye coming of this most desolating breath, proclaiming it a work of uninspired man, its quaking thunders, its firmament-clogging rottenness his own achievement in due course of nature, yet had not I believed it; but had said the pit itself hath furnished forth the stink, and heaven's artillery hath shook the globe in admiration of it.

[Then was there a silence, and each did turn him toward the worshipful Sr Walter Ralegh, that browned, embattled, bloody swashbuckler, who rising up did smile, and simpering say,]

Sr W.—Most gracious maisty, 'twas I that did it, but indeed it was so poor and frail a note, compared with such as I am wont to furnish, yt in sooth I was ashamed to call the weakling mine in so august a presence. It was nothing—less than nothing, madam—I did it but to clear my nether throat; but had I come prepared, then had I delivered something worthy. Bear with me, please your grace, till I can make amends.

[Then delivered he himself of such a godless and rock-shivering blast that all were fain to stop their ears, and following it did come so dense and foul a stink that that which went before did seem a poor and trifling thing beside it. Then saith he, feigning that he blushed and was confused, I perceive that I am weak to-day, and cannot justice do unto my powers; and sat him down as who should say, There, it is not much yet he that hath an arse to spare, let him fellow that, an' he think he can. By God, an' I were ye queene, I would e'en tip this swaggering braggart out o' the court, and let him air his grandeurs and break his intolerable wind before ye deaf and such as suffocation pleaseth.]

 

 

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The Duchess of Bilgewater. :)

 

I thought of Liz the 1 and Bill and Sam  and all them others having this conversation. :lol:

 

Hell

 

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When I read the question about how good is my Spanish, two things came to mind:
1) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I know just enough to get in trouble, and

2) As has already been observed, the change in eras changes the language: an Air Force sergeant asked the class how many spoke Spanish.

One fellow sneered and raised his hand and the Sergeant whipped something on him and the sneer fell away like a dropped hot horseshoe.

"I asked who spoke Spanish.  I just spoke to you in Spanish.  You speak Mexican.  They are not alike anymore" -- and that began the in-service on how to behave when off-base in Spain, do's and don'ts, and how to stay out of trouble.

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In the fourth grade Spanish was a required class. Tampa. They taught us Mexican. Logic would have them teaching us Cuban.

 

I didn't realize there was a difference. Then in 2000 I was in Little Havana at a Cuban coffee shop. I was amusing myself attempting to translate the menu on the wall - see how well that Spanish class 34 years ago stuck with me.

 

One of the things on the menu was a tuna sandwich. Tuna, in Mexican, is the fruit of the prickly pear cactus. I ordered one, to see what this fruit taste like. In Cuban, tuna is fish.

 

Couple years later I was in Puerto Rico, and found they don't eat frijoles. They eat habichuelas.

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While we are on Spanish, in any version that any of y'all know, what do they use to lift up the car when they wish to change the tire?

 

I was kind of amazed to find that they use a cat in Puerto Rico. It's not called a jack. It's a gato.

 

I've wondered since then if this was a Spanish name for it, or just a Puerto Rican one.

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