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Black Angus McPherson

FFL Transfer question(s)

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I was wondering, it's Alpo's fault, about a transaction I saw in a LGS a while back.

 

A guy (#1) was buying two guns, one for himself and one for his friend(#2).  His friend was there with him.  Both new guns had come from an out of state dealer and payment had already been made.

 

After transferring the first gun to the guy paying for them(#1) the dealer tells him that if the transfer to the second guy(#2) is denied by NICS he will not be allowed to transfer the gun to #1 and it would have to be shipped back to the seller as it would be considered a straw purchase since it would be assumed guy #1 would give the gun to guy #2 upon leaving the store.  OK, I think I understand that part, but..

 

Instead of shipping the gun back to the original seller could guy #1 sell the gun to guy #3 to save the expense of shipping it back?  BTW, if it gets shipped back is there any guarantee he gets a refund?  I figure at the very least he'd get hit with a "restocking fee".  What happens if guy #1 buys a gun and can't get it transferred to him?  Does the gun sit in limbo in the gun shop?

 

Question #2 came up while I was pondering question #1.

Suppose a guy buys a gun from out of state and has it shipped to his LGS, BUT the guy is currently out of state for an extended period, let's say deployed to Germany or some-such.  Is there anyway he can send a third party in to pick up the gun for him or does he have to physically be there to fill out the paperwork?  Could the third party use a notarized letter stating So-and-So is giving Such-and-Such permission to pick up said firearm for him?  Could So-and-So fill out the 4473(?) and mail it to the dealer advising him that Such-and-Such will pick it up for him?  Just how the heck can you take advantage of a great deal on a firearm if you won't be home for X months to pick it up?

 

Black Angus who blames Alpo for the above ponderings McPherson

 

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To begin with-Your are describing a 'straw-sale' perfectly, and that is illegal.

That question, is part of the 4473 you fill out......;)

I would contact the seller and start there. You could do a PP transfer upon his return.

OLG

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Situation #1 is exactly why we have NICS.

Straw Purchases are Illegal...as they should be in many regards.

 

I'd say more but it's Friday and I would like to start the weekend without starting a fire...

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29 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

To begin with-Your are describing a 'straw-sale' perfectly, and that is illegal.

That question, is part of the 4473 you fill out......;)

I would contact the seller and start there. You could do a PP transfer upon his return.

OLG

 

Which part? Scenario #2?

 

Which question?  I know the question about "Are you the actual purchaser(receiver?)?" (I think that's right)  But it's legal to buy a gun and give it as a gift.  Are you saying that in scenario #1 the buyer should have had the gun transferred to him and then gifted it to his friend?

 

I think I'm more confused than when I started.

 

Angus

edit:  I know straw purchases are illegal.  I'm trying to figure out if there's a legal way to do some of this.

 

 

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I'm kinda confused.  Regardless of who paid the seller, why aren't Guy #1 and Guy #2 filling out their own separate paperwork.  Does it have something to do with the State they're in?  I would never fill out the paperwork for a gun going to someone else!  What if its stolen or misused or he gives it to someone else?  Is this even legal?  

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The buy'n a gun for a friend part='straw-sale'.

OLG

 

Sorry, I'm still confused.  Are you saying there is no situation in which I could buy a gun as a gift for a friend?  That doesn't sound right.  If there is a situation in which someone could buy a gun as a gift for a friend could you please explain it to me?  To simplify I'm talking strictly about Federal laws.  State laws can be way too varied and messed up to get into here.  This is all purely speculation and I have no interest or intention in doing anything illegal.  I want to know if it can be done legally.

 

Is the only option to just give the friend the cash and let him go buy his own gun?  Or is that even legal since I know he's going to use what was formerly my cash to buy himself a gun?

 

Sorry guys, I was gonna buy all y'all a new revolver but it looks like the law won't let me.  :lol:

 

Angus

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You really should call your local BATFE office then with your concerns/questions.

OR-Walk into a gun store, and talk to the FFL holder.

IIRC-One of the questions on the 4473 is in effect. "Is this firearm for you"?

Good luck,

OLG

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3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You really should call your local BATFE office then with your concerns/questions.

OR-Walk into a gun store, and talk to the FFL holder.

IIRC-One of the questions on the 4473 is in effect. "Is this firearm for you"?

Good luck,

OLG

The BATFE is the best bet. I have, unfortunately, talked to more than one FFL holder who is hazy on the regs.:rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Don't ask, don't tell. 

 

That'll get ya in jail in this state.  :ph34r:

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You can absolutely buy a gun for a friend.  It's not a straw purchase unless the money for it came from the friend or if you are doing it because you know or think the friend can't pass the BGC.  In your first situation, #2 shouldn't be doing any paperwork because all the money came from #1.  If #2 does paperwork while #1 provides the funding, that might technically be a straw purchase.  Not positive about that.  I saw that situation once at a gun show and the FFL made them both fill out the forms. 

 

I've bought guns for friends and family a few times and had one bought for me too.  3 if you count the guns my dad bought me when I was a kid.  One was even bought with the idea of trading it to someone else who had a gun I wanted.  I would have just bought his gun with cash and let him buy the new one, but he wasn't there and it was a hard to find gun. 

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19 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

From the original post, it sounds like the friend might not pass a background check. I sure wouldn't be gifting a gun to him.

 

 

FWIW, They each got a gun and they both passed their check and took possession of the guns.  It wasn't a question about if anyone could pass the check.  It seemed to be a question about who was going to take possession of the gun.

 

RE: The question "Is this firearm for you?" I was under the impression that, if the gun was intended as a gift, you should answer "No".  I've never actually bought a gun as a gift so I don't know, first hand, what happens if you answer that way.

 

New question:  If someone answers the question "Is this firearm for you?" with "No", what do you do?  Deny the sale or is there a question about the firearm being intended as a gift?

 

Yeah, BATF would be the best source for a correct answer, but I'm honestly not interested enough to go thru the trouble of finding the phone number, getting shuffled thru eight people, or having to leave a message and wait for a call back, sitting on hold for 30 minutes and getting an answer to a question that won't be of real world use to me.  (For now, at least) I'm just really curious.

 

I'd much rather bother you guys.  :D

 

Thanks,

 

Angus

 

p.s. If the money for the gun comes from the friend getting the gun it's not really a gift, then, is it?  I don't think anyone would argue about that being a straw purchase.  In my scenario the money comes from #1 and the gun and paperwork go to #2.  That's a gift.  I'm just wondering if it can be legally done.

 

 

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Buy your friend a Gift Card and tell him to go buy a gun.  Because you are asking a question that is considered a straw purchase and thats illegal. 

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The question on Form 4473 is.
Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?
From the NOTICES, INSTRUCTIONS, AND DEFINITIONS for form 4473.
Actual TRANSFEREE/buyer examples: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be prohibited)

. Mr.  Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO"to

question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown buys the firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a gift

(with no service or tangible thing of value provided by Mr. Black), Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11.a. However,
the transferor/seller may not transfer a firearm to any person he/she knows or has reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), (n) or (x).

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On 4/21/2018 at 3:20 PM, T.J. Bones SASS# 75616 said:
The question on Form 4473 is.
Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?
From the NOTICES, INSTRUCTIONS, AND DEFINITIONS for form 4473.
Actual TRANSFEREE/buyer examples: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be prohibited)

. Mr.  Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO"to

question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown buys the firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a gift

(with no service or tangible thing of value provided by Mr. Black), Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11.a. However,
the transferor/seller may not transfer a firearm to any person he/she knows or has reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), (n) or (x).

 

Thanks.  Kinda hard to read the tiny print, but it answers some questions.

 

Angus

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