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Rossi 92 .45 Kicking Out Live Rounds - SUCCESS!!!


Pat Riot, SASS #13748

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Howdy, I have a little problem that baffles me a bit. My Rossi 92 .45 Colt rifle, at the last match, was kicking out live round with the empty cartridges on  4 stages out of 6. It kicked out one at each of the 4 stages but on the last stage it happened 3 times. Needless to say my times were lower than their normal low. :D

 

Now, before I jumped on here and posted asking what was wrong I did some research. My first thoughts were that the gun was just dirty and something might be hanging up. I kind of doubted that this was the case as I figure I have put 180 - 240 rounds through it since I completely disassembled it to modify it and in the process cleaned everything. I did a bore and cursory cleaning after each match.

 

I also tried dummy rounds that I made up but could not duplicate the problem. I am wondering if having near full weight dummy rounds won't allow me to duplicate the exact problem. I even tried cycling and firing as fast as I could and it functioned great. When racking it slowly and watching the components operate I see nothing hanging up or not doing what it's supposed to.

 

All hardware is tight - no loose screws......on the gun :huh:

 

I found that it might be possible that I might need to shim the right side Cartridge Guide. I went to Marauder's site and found the link below. It's for a .357 Magnum rifle. The .357's outer diameter shell dimension is .379". The recommended Guide width opening dimension is .382" - .386". That is .003" - .007" over the cartridge shell outer width dimension so I figured the same tolerances should be good for .45 Colt. The .45 Colt outside cartridge diameter is .480"

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Rossi_92_cartridge_guide.htm

 

SO, I did some measurements. Reference the photos below:

 

This is a dummy cartridge sitting as it would be just before the bolt is closed. No appearance of excessive dimensions here. It looks like the cartridge is too big but it's not. It's not that great of a photo...this is the best I could do alone.

Rossi 92 Guide Test with Dummy Cartridge.JPG

 

Here is a photo just showing the left and right cartridge guides. Nothing odd here that I can see.

Rossi 92 Cartridge Guides Detail.JPG

 

Now - below are the photos of the the dimension points from front to rear on the guides. They are not excessively opened up at all. The rear is possibly too tight but I don't know how that could cause the live round to fly out with the empty.

 

The Measurements:

 

Front - .484"

Rossi 92 Cartridge Guide - Front.JPG

 

Middle - .4825"

Rossi 92 Cartridge Guide - Middle.JPG

 

Rear - .480"

Rossi 92 Cartridge Guide - Rear.JPG

 

SO, I am wondering. Is it only because the gun possibly needs a good receiver cleaning. Is the front dimension too wide? Is the rear dimension too narrow?

 

Please don't tell me to buy a '73.  The first person that does has to buy drinks for everybody :lol:

 

Thanks for looking.

 

Pat Riot

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Make sure the cartridge OAL is still what you originally set it to. Some 92s are more sensitive to OAL than others.  Your cartridges could be longer or shorter.  Either one can cause problems.

 

Check that your crimp die is still providing an adequate crimp.  At the range shoot the gun using the same batch of ammo you were having problems with. When a live round kicks out, check it for any abnormalities including crimp and OAL

 

Make sure all the screws are tight.

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Buy a Marlin 94 :D:P

Deep clean the rec'r and re-measure where you did before. Look for burrs on the right and left guides.

OLG

Dang...slipped that one past me :lol:

 

Thanks will do. I did de-burr the guide, or so I thought but I did. I will check it again. Thank you

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2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Make sure the cartridge OAL is still what you originally set it to. Some 92s are more sensitive to OAL than others.  Your cartridges could be longer or shorter.  Either one can cause problems.

 

Check that your crimp die is still providing an adequate crimp.  At the range shoot the gun using the same batch of ammo you were having problems with. When a live round kicks out, check it for any abnormalities including crimp and OAL

 

Make sure all the screws are tight.

Ammo is consistent and the same OAL as always. I also always use a Lee FCD for crimping. I crimp my loads good. 

I will recheck my load OALs again, but I am almost positive they'll be okay. 

When I first got the gun it did not like max OAL of 1.60". I load at 1.55 and have put many rounds down range with no issues. I will check their length again.

 

Hitting the hay. Gotta be at work at 05:00.

 

Thank you.

 

Edit. I freakin' hate auto correct...

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Yo Pat Riot: Had same problem with my 92 Rossi .38 and found that the right cartridge guide was the problem and I did find how to fix on Marauders Homestead covering this problem & gives how to shim the cartridge guide. Very easy to do. Lots of good info available. My AOL is 1.50 .38 special.

 

Marauders Old Iron Page

 

Hope this helps pard.

 

Jackrabbit Joe #414

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Had the same problem with my 92 Rossi .38. Right cartridge guide was the problem. Put a spot of TIG weld on the back side of the right cartridge guide. Filed to the recommended dimensions on the Marauder page. Problem solved. 

 

Good luck

Procedural Pete

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Thank you both, Jackrabbit Joe and Procedural Pete.

The tolerances are pretty tight now but perhaps the problem is that they aren't consistent. There is .004" difference from the font to the rear portion where they open up for the cartridge rim to pass through... 

 

I just went through a bunch of my reloads checking OAL. They are all between 1.548" and 1.554" so they are consistent with load that have been working fine up to now.

 

This is a bit of a stumper. 

 

 

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Maybe try a little shim  up front never know till you try.

 

JRJ

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3 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Thank you both, Jackrabbit Joe and Procedural Pete.

The tolerances are pretty tight now but perhaps the problem is that they aren't consistent. There is .004" difference from the font to the rear portion where they open up for the cartridge rim to pass through... 

 

I just went through a bunch of my reloads checking OAL. They are all between 1.548" and 1.554" so they are consistent with load that have been working fine up to now.

 

This is a bit of a stumper. 

 

 

 

Howdy Pat.

 

I don't know if this will help you but my .45cal Rossi only seems to operate well with 250g. RNFP bullets.  Using them eliminated (virtually) the issues I had with blowback and the intermittent stove pipes.  I don't recall ever having any live rounds get kicked out with the .45.   My .357 cal Rossi will repeatedly kick out live rounds like you described if I try to run .38s but it never has with .357s so I'll only shoot .357s in it.  I read about shimming the cartridge guide but never tried it since the longer ammo worked fine.  I assumed my issue was due to length rather than width.

 

btw; in my notebook for loading the ammo for the Rossi I have written "OAL = 1.57 exactly!"  I think I came to that value from talking with NKJ about feeding issues I was having and he told me to the Rossi's were very OAL sensitive and to experiment with it.  I came to a later conclusion that my feeding issues only occurred if I did not work the action smoothly and/or slammed the lever at the end of it's travel.  My thinking was that between the spring loaded ball detent snapping the carrier in the up position and me jolting the rifle while working the lever was causing the rounds to try and stand up or launch out of the receiver.

 

 

Good luck, 

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59 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said:

btw; in my notebook for loading the ammo for the Rossi I have written "OAL = 1.57 exactly!" 

 

59 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

I don't know if this will help you but my .45cal Rossi only seems to operate well with 250g. RNFP bullets.  

 

I did try 1.57" but when I loaded them to that sometimes loads that were just a smidge longer would give me loading issues. I ended up backing down to 1.550" +/- .004". It has worked great until recently.

Also, I load 205 grain BCS RNFP with no problems at all...up until recently.

 

31 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

PR-The issue you are having. Is it with all brands of brass or just one or two different headstamps?

OLG

I have all kinds of brass in my reload mix. Federal, Starline. Fiocchi, Winchester, CBC... Side note: CBC brass and Fiocchi brass have thicker sidewalls but the outer dimensions are within SAAMI specs.

OOPS edit: Forgot to mention that when these problems occurred I did not look to see if it was any particular brass maker's brass. I hadn't thought about that. I have loaded a bunch of brand new Starline brass for the annual match at the end of the month. I will do some measurements on those as well.

 

Also: A moment ago I saw a link to a form that said "Do Not Use CBC Brass" Outer dimensions are whacky...Hmm...

 

Something that dawned on me on my way to work this morning is I did not measure the outer case dimensions on the relaods I was using at the last match. Luckily I have about 30 rounds left in that stash. I will measure it when I get home and see if the outer dimensions of the case are out of whack.

 

Thank you both. Gotta run.

 

PR

 

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PR-Do you use a case-gauge to ck loaded ammo? Have you tried your ammo in another '92?

IMHO-CBC brass is trash, and 'I' won't load'em.

Also, check the rim dia.

You have gun work to do-You should have call'd out as 'sic'.........:lol:

We'll all try to 'rite' ya a note----:P

OLG

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 When you lighten springs it changes the effort and timing of operation so if you changed your gun to slick it up the shorter lighter rounds will quit being as reliable. If that's the case making the guide fit tighter will just make you launch the occasional live  round that much higher or not cycle as you're fighting the side fit.

So if you did lighten your springs, try a longer or heavier bullet.When feeding a short round quickly it may pop up or out. After reducing springs I reshape the needed internals to provide the correct operation with the desired ammo.

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30 minutes ago, Joe West said:

 When you lighten springs it changes the effort and timing of operation so if you changed your gun to slick it up the shorter lighter rounds will quit being as reliable. If that's the case making the guide fit tighter will just make you launch the occasional live  round that much higher or not cycle as you're fighting the side fit.

So if you did lighten your springs, try a longer or heavier bullet.When feeding a short round quickly it may pop up or out. After reducing springs I reshape the needed internals to provide the correct operation with the desired ammo.

Interesting. I will check this out as well.

 

Thank you.

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44 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

PR-Do you use a case-gauge to ck loaded ammo? Have you tried your ammo in another '92?

IMHO-CBC brass is trash, and 'I' won't load'em.

Also, check the rim dia.

You have gun work to do-You should have call'd out as 'sic'.........:lol:

We'll all try to 'rite' ya a note----:P

OLG

 

Send the Sick Note to PRBoss@workaday.com :D

 

The more I think about this the more I think I need to drop the odd ball cases and start fresh. The ones I have been using have all been reloaded about 6 times. They are a mixture of brands Also, I think you are right, I need to do a detail clean on the reciever. THEN test fire it and go from there.

 

Thank you,

Pat

 

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My cartridge outside diameter is 0,475 and they are 1,506 long.

I shoot Black Powder 99% of the time with CBC brass. Uptill now I have had no problems with stovepiping and ejecting of live rounds.

I found that CBC brass gives a better seal.

My sizing die has been reamed out to 0.473

IMG_20170710_182033903 (360x640).jpg

IMG_20170710_182414775 (360x640).jpg

IMG_20170710_183357462 (360x640).jpg

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PR--- 6 reloads is nut'n.:o

My 44's and wife's:wub: .38's have been loaded dozens and dozens of times. I toss the case with the case mouth splits get to be more than 1/8" in length.

We do use Marlin 94's. :P

You know about Marlin 94's-It's the rifle JMB wished he had designed...........:D :lol: :P

The few 92's I've work'd on with the issue you have. After I made a shim to go the full length of the right side guide, the issue stopped.

OLG

 

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I know you are using a Lee FCD. You might want to inspect it and make sure it is operating properly and doesn't have any bullet lube or other foreign objects in it.

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After shooting my Rossi 92 in 45colt for a year at about 12 stages a month I ran into the same problem, sort of. Mine did not spit out live rounds until I switched from 200grn to 160grn bullets. I was ejecting 1-2 live rounds out of 10. I tried the tips on Marauder's page and shimmed the guide. Maybe my interpretation of the instructions were wrong, I just could not make them work for me. One bit of advice was maybe the cartridge is too short with 160grn. So I loaded some to the lube groove instead of the crimp groove. First round I tried like that was ejected straight out of the gun, not what I was hoping for. After tweaking, polishing and trying to figure out just what was going on for about 2 weeks I gave up and switched back to 200grn bullets. The gun now works better than it ever has, with 200grains of lead. :wacko:

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PR-Do you have any factory .45 Colt ammo to get some specs off of like dia?

I ask, because you said this "The .45 Colt outside cartridge diameter is .480".                      

Well-My .45 Colt ammo, loaded with 20+ year old RCBS carbide size die, has an OD of .472-.473 measured at the bullet level of the case.

This is with a .453 dia bullet.

Might want to get a new size die before any more mess'n with the gunz insides..........:o

OLG

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OLG, I could kiss ya!...well, not really. I just got done measuring a few rounds of my reloads and here is what I found:

At top near bullet = .474 - .475.

Midway down = .469 - .470.

Near the base = .475 - .476

Bullet diameter is .452"

This is also consistent with loads that I just did using brand new Starline cases and no sizing die was used. I just expanded them, primed them, seated the bullet and used the Factory Crimp die.

My dummy loads that I made up all measured the same as the reload measurements above.

 

.480" diameter is the SAAMI Maximum dimension. It's the same in 6 of my reloading manuals.

 

I learn something new everyday. Thank you. I just started reloading .45 Colt a few months ago. I never considered the case dimension in this but I should have. I recall a similar issue I had with .357 years ago regarding dimensions but it was because of case thickness just being narrow enough to be a problem in my Win. 94 and my Marlin. I threw the brass away and that was that, This is a little different. You see, I always used .357 and .38 when shooting CAS before. I decided to go with .45 last Fall.

I use RCBS dies so I don't doubt them at all. I will just keep cartridge dimensions the same and rework the gun a little.

So, it looks like some shimming may be in order on the right cartridge guide. It's pretty simple to do. I am thinking .004 or .005" shim stock. This will give me about .005" clearance. This and a good cleaning just might do the trick.

If not, I can check these things off the list and move forward. The next steps would be rethinking OAL and maybe moving up in bullet weight.

 

Thank you very much! Thanks to everyone that responded. I do appreciate all the help. :D

 

 

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I forgot to add that I measured some Hornady Leverevolution rounds and some Winchester Super X factory loads and from the top to the bottom just as I had measured in the prior post they were .475" at all 3 points on both manufacturer's rounds.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

OLG, I could kiss ya!...

 

 

You best bet you're buy'n me dinner FIRST.........:o

I'm easy-NOT cheap...... :P

 

BTW: Don't seat and crimp on the same stage..........;)

 

OLG

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

BTW: Don't seat and crimp on the same stage..........;)

 

OLG

 

I never seat and crimp at the same time. I seat the bullet with the RCBS seating die. When I have all the cartridges done I switch to the Lee Factory Crimp die. I always load on a single stage...I get a more harmonious outcome ;)

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9 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

OLG, I could kiss ya!...well, not really. I just got done measuring a few rounds of my reloads and here is what I found:

At top near bullet = .474 - .475.

Midway down = .469 - .470.

Near the base = .475 - .476

Bullet diameter is .452"

This is also consistent with loads that I just did using brand new Starline cases and no sizing die was used. I just expanded them, primed them, seated the bullet and used the Factory Crimp die.

My dummy loads that I made up all measured the same as the reload measurements above.

 

.480" diameter is the SAAMI Maximum dimension. It's the same in 6 of my reloading manuals.

 

I learn something new everyday. Thank you. I just started reloading .45 Colt a few months ago. I never considered the case dimension in this but I should have. I recall a similar issue I had with .357 years ago regarding dimensions but it was because of case thickness just being narrow enough to be a problem in my Win. 94 and my Marlin. I threw the brass away and that was that, This is a little different. You see, I always used .357 and .38 when shooting CAS before. I decided to go with .45 last Fall.

I use RCBS dies so I don't doubt them at all. I will just keep cartridge dimensions the same and rework the gun a little.

So, it looks like some shimming may be in order on the right cartridge guide. It's pretty simple to do. I am thinking .004 or .005" shim stock. This will give me about .005" clearance. This and a good cleaning just might do the trick.

If not, I can check these things off the list and move forward. The next steps would be rethinking OAL and maybe moving up in bullet weight.

 

Thank you very much! Thanks to everyone that responded. I do appreciate all the help. :D

 

 

 

If you're going to follow the instructions on Marauder's site to make your shims,  I suggest that you make the screw hole before you cut the shim to the desired width as it will be less likely to break the edge of the hole and make you start over.

 

Please let us know if this works.  It would be great if we could get a slow motion video of the round getting kicked out to see exactly what takes place during this operation.  When I get some time I might try to make one with my .357 since it was so repeatable with .38 ammo.  Of course, if I point a camera at it the darn thing will probably work flawlessly.  :angry:

 

On reflection I'm not sure a test with my .357 would even be relevant since I felt pretty certain that the reason it kicks out the .38 rounds is that the rim is further forward on the carrier and more in line with the slots in the cartridge guides and not due to the amount of gap.  I really can't see how the .45s are getting clear of the receiver without hanging up on the rim.

 

I wonder if tilting the barrel down would help Pat reproduce the symptom with his dummy rounds.  :huh:

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1 hour ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

If you're going to follow the instructions on Marauder's site to make your shims,  I suggest that you make the screw hole before you cut the shim to the desired width as it will be less likely to break the edge of the hole and make you start over.

 

Please let us know if this works.  It would be great if we could get a slow motion video of the round getting kicked out to see exactly what takes place during this operation.  When I get some time I might try to make one with my .357 since it was so repeatable with .38 ammo.  Of course, if I point a camera at it the darn thing will probably work flawlessly.  :angry:

 

On reflection I'm not sure a test with my .357 would even be relevant since I felt pretty certain that the reason it kicks out the .38 rounds is that the rim is further forward on the carrier and more in line with the slots in the cartridge guides and not due to the amount of gap.  I really can't see how the .45s are getting clear of the receiver without hanging up on the rim.

 

I wonder if tilting the barrel down would help Pat reproduce the symptom with his dummy rounds.  :huh:

Thanks for that piece of advice on the shims. Good idea! :)

 

Video, he says...It appears you have the same kind of luck that I do trying to capture something on video...Hey, That's it. I don't have to do a thing t this gun. All I need is to have someone follow me around with a video camera when I am shooting and my guns will work perfectly! :lol:

 

On your 3rd point:

I thought the same thing regarding the rim. It baffled me as to how the cartridge got lined up enough to get past the rim openings on the Guides. In the photo at the beginning of my original post that shows the inside of the receiver with no cartridge or pointing stick you can see a nice black Carrier. That Carrier is actually more silver than black when clean. I get a lot of blowback with this rifle. Even with fairly stout loads and a good crimp o my cartridges. I think the dirty works and expecially the dirty carrier have something to do with this problem as well as the space between the guides. I think the round doesn't slide back as far as it should when working the rifle fast and it gets popped out past the Guides during cycling. A nice slo-mo video might catch this. My problem is duplicating this easily. I don't really have a place to shoot this gun fast enough to recreate this without going through some trouble to do so. The indoor range I frequent won't allow rapid  fire. Access to an outdoor shooting area that I go to is always spotty in the Summer due to BLM closing it off randomly...But I will try.

 

I think a problem with the dummy rounds is the weight of the cartridge being ejected. Perhaps it gets just in the way enough to not allow me to duplicate the problem. I will try pointing the barrel downwards this afternoon after work and see if I can get it to happen that way, I will let you know how it goes....and I will see if I can get some slo-mo video on my iPhone.

 

Thank you Cody. :)

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16 hours ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

Pat,

Tell me how you are getting your measurements for the shim.

Hello NKJ,

I am using a digital caliper to take the measurements between the guides. I make sure it is resting squarely on the receiver and then expanding it to take the measurement using the upper jaws for internal measurements. See the photo below. Danged iPhone photo turned sideways...again...

 

I believe I am doing it correctly. Thank you.

 

Rossi 92 Digi-Cal Shot on Guides.JPG

 

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12 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I forgot to add that I measured some Hornady Leverevolution rounds and some Winchester Super X factory loads and from the top to the bottom just as I had measured in the prior post they were .475" at all 3 points on both manufacturer's rounds.

 

 

Like my ammo, does it kick out those too?

In my opinion the "fat" middle part of the cartridge keeps it hanging between the guides...

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Pat,

 

Two more suggestions for ya.  You mention a lot of Blow-By with the rifle.  Blow-By in 45 is unfortunately "normal."  There are a number of suggested solutions on offer to attenuate or resolve the Blow-By but only two of them really work.  First solution - Start loading your 45 with 44-40 brass.  It will expand out to 45 and load just fine.  It will look real funny until the first firing.  44-40 cases WILL obturate to seal the chamber.  You must exercise care seating the bullet.  Get it too deep and crimp and you will get accordions.  Try it.  You'll like it.  Second solution - Anneal your 45 cases.  45 Colt cases simply will not reliably obturate enough to seal the chamber in original form.  The brass is simply too thick and hard.  

 

The other step I'd take is to fire a couple of 44-40 cases (loaded with 45s) then mike the brass for case dimensions.

 

 

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Best way to drill shim stock and not tear it apart, is to place the stock between two pieces of wood.

Drill the hole and then trim the shim stock to fit.

Best place to get shim stock, is from buying cheap feeler gauges and using them.

OLG

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