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Rossi 92 .45 Kicking Out Live Rounds - SUCCESS!!!


Pat Riot, SASS #13748

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26 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Best way to drill shim stock and not tear it apart, is to place the stock between two pieces of wood.

Drill the hole and then trim the shim stock to fit.

Best place to get shim stock, is from buying cheap feeler gauges and using them.

OLG

 

Hi Pat,

The feeler gages is also the best way to measure what's needed for a shim. With a cart. on the carrier in the up position just select the feeler gage that fits snug between the cart and the forward part of the right side guide. You can use several carts to get an average if you like. Once you determine what that gap is just deduct about .004-.005 from it. That will be the shim thickness you will want to cut your shim from. In most cases I only shim the front end of the cart guide. Shimming the rear of the guide can sometimes create more problems.

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20 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Nate-With the .484 dimension PR is showing in his last picture. Do you think .005 thickness of shim stock is a better choice than .010?

I would have tried the .010. :huh:

TNX,

 

OLG

 

 

 

It may even be more than .010 for the shim. The idea is to end up with a gap of about .005. Let's say the gap is .020. if you subtract .005 from that you end up with .015 for the shim. Or, say the gap is .014 then you end up with a .009 shim. 

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TNX Nate. So .005 is the goal. I'll put that in my note book. I was using .003-.008.

I was think'n about the .010 shim for PR's issue as that would reduce the gap to .474.

What do you like to see the gap set to?

OLG

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2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Pat,

 

Two more suggestions for ya.  You mention a lot of Blow-By with the rifle.  Blow-By in 45 is unfortunately "normal."  There are a number of suggested solutions on offer to attenuate or resolve the Blow-By but only two of them really work.  First solution - Start loading your 45 with 44-40 brass.  It will expand out to 45 and load just fine.  It will look real funny until the first firing.  44-40 cases WILL obturate to seal the chamber.  You must exercise care seating the bullet.  Get it too deep and crimp and you will get accordions.  Try it.  You'll like it.  Second solution - Anneal your 45 cases.  45 Colt cases simply will not reliably obturate enough to seal the chamber in original form.  The brass is simply too thick and hard.  

 

The other step I'd take is to fire a couple of 44-40 cases (loaded with 45s) then mike the brass for case dimensions.

 

 

Great Ideas, Colorado. Thank you. I think I will try annealing first but I really like that idea on using a 44-40 case to get chamber dimensions. It sure would beat casting the chamber.

 

I do load my .45's above mid range and I shoot CAS that way. I like it that away. When I tested loads that would make the cases seal the chamber they were pretty darned stout and I am sure maybe even above the FPS spec allowed.

 

I know that Hornady brass seems a bit "thinner" than other brass so this may be another option.

 

Thank you

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2 hours ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

 

Hi Pat,

The feeler gages is also the best way to measure what's needed for a shim. With a cart. on the carrier in the up position just select the feeler gage that fits snug between the cart and the forward part of the right side guide. You can use several carts to get an average if you like. Once you determine what that gap is just deduct about .004-.005 from it. That will be the shim thickness you will want to cut your shim from. In most cases I only shim the front end of the cart guide. Shimming the rear of the guide can sometimes create more problems.

Great. Thank you. I can see how that might be better than using the digital caliper.

 

1 hour ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

 

 

It may even be more than .010 for the shim. The idea is to end up with a gap of about .005. Let's say the gap is .020. if you subtract .005 from that you end up with .015 for the shim. Or, say the gap is .014 then you end up with a .009 shim. 

Question: is that Overall gap or .005" on each side of the casing using the feeler gauge method? I read that as Overall gap.

1 hour ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

I think so. Just don't bother with the case dimensions because they can vary. Just measure the gap. The .005 will usually allow for slight cart variations. 

 

I do appreciate you responding. This helps a good deal.

 

I got a lot of great help regarding this problem. Cowboy Action Shooters are the Best! :D

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Best way to drill shim stock and not tear it apart, is to place the stock between two pieces of wood.

Drill the hole and then trim the shim stock to fit.

Best place to get shim stock, is from buying cheap feeler gauges and using them.

OLG

I was trying to remember how I did this about 15 years ago and I just couldn't remember. Thanks for this, OLG. What is it they say is the first thing to go?....

 

After looking at what Ace Hardware wants for shim stock I do believe you are correct. I have the Matco guy coming by the shop today. I will hit him up on his cheaper feeler guage sets. :D

I bought Harbor Freight feeler gauges to use once...Once!

 

Lumpy Gritz, thanks so much for the help and the PMs :)

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Pat,

 

There is no 45 Colt case that will obturate enough to seal off the chamber.  The difference in case wall thickness isn't enough to pay attention to.  

 

I'm lazy.  Card carrying, life member of Lazy Anonymous.  I have Poo Poo'd annealing for years as I didn't need to.  Then I ran into a 44 Special chamber that would foul out and jam in 4 - 5 rounds.  I've broken down and annealed a pile of cases.  My solution for the 45s has been to start with new Starline Brass, run it thru the 45 dies (carefully) and load away.  I haven't used silly max loads with elephant bullets.  Just my base load of APP topped with Cream-0-Wheat.  Smells like breakfast.  I lose more cases to the brass pickers than I do splitting or cracking.  Using heavy loads is just silly when there is a really simple way to do it.  I have also started to anneal 45 Schofield cases to resolve the same issue in one rifle that won't hold 10 rounds of standard cases.  I'll keep ya posted.

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PR-See if he carries shim stock-

Garage sales are a good source for old feeler gauges and such. ;)

Wally world, Lowes , Home Depot. also carry 'feelers'.

Most steel shim stock is harden'd steel. Make sure your drill bit is freshly sharpened for this.

Take your time-Measure TWICE and cut once.

OLG

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Pat,

 

There is no 45 Colt case that will obturate enough to seal off the chamber.  The difference in case wall thickness isn't enough to pay attention to.  

 

I'm lazy.  Card carrying, life member of Lazy Anonymous.  I have Poo Poo'd annealing for years as I didn't need to.  Then I ran into a 44 Special chamber that would foul out and jam in 4 - 5 rounds.  I've broken down and annealed a pile of cases.  My solution for the 45s has been to start with new Starline Brass, run it thru the 45 dies (carefully) and load away.  I haven't used silly max loads with elephant bullets.  Just my base load of APP topped with Cream-0-Wheat.  Smells like breakfast.  I lose more cases to the brass pickers than I do splitting or cracking.  Using heavy loads is just silly when there is a really simple way to do it.  I have also started to anneal 45 Schofield cases to resolve the same issue in one rifle that won't hold 10 rounds of standard cases.  I'll keep ya posted.

:D I like the stouter loads but with a moderate weighted bullet. I use a 205 grain moly coated bullet over Universal powder just a bit over middle of the load table.

I will try annealing and see how that goes. Thanks. 

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8 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

PR-See if he carries shim stock-

Garage sales are a good source for old feeler gauges and such. ;)

Wally world, Lowes , Home Depot. also carry 'feelers'.

Most steel shim stock is harden'd steel. Make sure your drill bit is freshly sharpened for this.

Take your time-Measure TWICE and cut once.

OLG

 

 

 

Thanks OLG. I got 2 sets of feeler gauges that have .001" to .005" in 1 thousandth increments. I have Cobalt drill bits and will be cutting some plywood strips to sandwich the shim material between the plywood to clamp and drill probably tomorrow evening. 

 

Murphy hangs out with me. I always measure 3 times...at least. ;)

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On 7/9/2017 at 5:11 PM, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Howdy, I have a little problem that baffles me a bit. My Rossi 92 .45 Colt rifle, at the last match, was kicking out live round with the empty cartridges on  4 stages out of 6. It kicked out one at each of the 4 stages but on the last stage it happened 3 times. Needless to say my times were lower than their normal low. :D

 

Now, before I jumped on here and posted asking what was wrong I did some research. My first thoughts were that the gun was just dirty and something might be hanging up. I kind of doubted that this was the case as I figure I have put 180 - 240 rounds through it since I completely disassembled it to modify it and in the process cleaned everything. I did a bore and cursory cleaning after each match.

 

I also tried dummy rounds that I made up but could not duplicate the problem. I am wondering if having near full weight dummy rounds won't allow me to duplicate the exact problem. I even tried cycling and firing as fast as I could and it functioned great. When racking it slowly and watching the components operate I see nothing hanging up or not doing what it's supposed to.

 

All hardware is tight - no loose screws......on the gun :huh:

 

I found that it might be possible that I might need to shim the right side Cartridge Guide. I went to Marauder's site and found the link below. It's for a .357 Magnum rifle. The .357's outer diameter shell dimension is .379". The recommended Guide width opening dimension is .382" - .386". That is .003" - .007" over the cartridge shell outer width dimension so I figured the same tolerances should be good for .45 Colt. The .45 Colt outside cartridge diameter is .480"

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Rossi_92_cartridge_guide.htm

 

SO, I did some measurements. Reference the photos below:

 

This is a dummy cartridge sitting as it would be just before the bolt is closed. No appearance of excessive dimensions here. It looks like the cartridge is too big but it's not. It's not that great of a photo...this is the best I could do alone.

Rossi 92 Guide Test with Dummy Cartridge.JPG

 

Here is a photo just showing the left and right cartridge guides. Nothing odd here that I can see.

Rossi 92 Cartridge Guides Detail.JPG

 

Now - below are the photos of the the dimension points from front to rear on the guides. They are not excessively opened up at all. The rear is possibly too tight but I don't know how that could cause the live round to fly out with the empty.

 

The Measurements:

 

Front - .484"

Rossi 92 Cartridge Guide - Front.JPG

 

Middle - .4825"

Rossi 92 Cartridge Guide - Middle.JPG

 

Rear - .480"

Rossi 92 Cartridge Guide - Rear.JPG

 

SO, I am wondering. Is it only because the gun possibly needs a good receiver cleaning. Is the front dimension too wide? Is the rear dimension too narrow?

 

Please don't tell me to buy a '73.  The first person that does has to buy drinks for everybody :lol:

 

Thanks for looking.

 

Pat Riot

How long have you been ACTIVELY SHOOTING CAS? 

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Because I'm curious. I've never met you at any shoot and I'm from Oregon as well, but I see you on here all the time. I just read your Rossi post and the don't tell me to buy a 73 thing. So I'm asking how long have you been actively shooting?

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23 minutes ago, LAST CHANCE said:

Because I'm curious. I've never met you at any shoot and I'm from Oregon as well, but I see you on here all the time. I just read your Rossi post and the don't tell me to buy a 73 thing. So I'm asking how long have you been actively shooting?

His SASS # should be a clue....;) 

Back to the subject, PLZ.

OLG

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31 minutes ago, LAST CHANCE said:

Because I'm curious. I've never met you at any shoot and I'm from Oregon as well, but I see you on here all the time. I just read your Rossi post and the don't tell me to buy a 73 thing. So I'm asking how long have you been actively shooting?

Been shooting in Oregon since last November. I've never seen you either.

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OLG, I think I am going to sandwich the shims between mild steel so the bit doesn't dance it's way sideways through the wood that I was going to use. I think I will follow Nate's suggestion on measuring but I will only drill one shim at a time so I don't screw them up....which is another reason I have 2 sets of shims :D

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I think that those who have mention overall cartridge length may be on to something. I had a problem similar to what you describe with a Rossi that is chambered for .44Magnum that I was running .44 Specials in.   When I switched to Magnums, the problem went away.    Granted, you are probably not using a shortened verison of the .45 Colt,  but OAL of your loaded cases may be the culprit.

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7 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

OLG, I think I am going to sandwich the shims between mild steel so the bit doesn't dance it's way sideways through the wood that I was going to use. I think I will follow Nate's suggestion on measuring but I will only drill one shim at a time so I don't screw them up....which is another reason I have 2 sets of shims :D

Use a piece of newspaper on each side of the shim to keep the shim from 'walking'.

Pre-drill the mild steel 'outers'.

Also-If these 'feelers' are the fold up type. Just grind the rivet off the pivot, and there's your hole......

OLG

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Welcome to Shooting in Oregon! I Didn't quite get a straight answer but i guess that's ok. I Didn't see you at the Worlds or the Oregon state match this year, but we are putting on the Oregon state match again next year if you'd like to attend :) I will be at the NW regional most likely and the Dixie Desperado big shoot in Utah next spring. Most shoots I attend are in the NW excluding the Worlds. You can catch me at most. Odd to see someone who's been actively shooting since sass#13000 with a Rossi. I have a full length 45lc octagon 73 w/ action job in stock (under 1,000 $) at our store if you don't want to go through the headache of a cheap Rossi ;) 

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7 minutes ago, LAST CHANCE said:

Welcome to Shooting in Oregon! I Didn't quite get a straight answer but i guess that's ok. I Didn't see you at the Worlds or the Oregon state match this year, but we are putting on the Oregon state match again next year if you'd like to attend :) I will be at the NW regional most likely and the Dixie Desperado big shoot in Utah next spring. Most shoots I attend are in the NW excluding the Worlds. You can catch me at most. Odd to see someone who's been actively shooting since sass#13000 with a Rossi. I have a full length 45lc octagon 73 w/ action job in stock (under 1,000 $) at our store if you don't want to go through the headache of a cheap Rossi ;) 

Last Chance, I have only been shooting with the Molalla River Rangers as I only have time for one match a month right now. I am hoping to get around a bit more later this years. Too much work... Thanks for the invite. :D

 

I am not one to drive the same route as everyone else. I started with a Win. 94, moved to a Marlin 94, a couple of em. Quit CAS for 10 years, came back and decided I want a 92. Some like to think I am saving the best for last ;) I will not go into why I stopped CAS, so please don't ask. :D

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On with the show...

 

I just measured 12 different cartridges of reloads from different brass manufacturers and measured the gap between the cartridge and the right guide putting a little pressure on the cartridge to rest it against the left guide and used feeler gauges as Nate Kiowa Jones recommended and measured between .010" and .011". Just for kicks I also measured some of that Fiocchi and CBC brass which is a bit thick and got measurements of .009". Once I fire those loads I am dumping that brass. It's too thick. YES, I WAS SAFE USING RELOADS TO CHECK THESE MEASUREMENTS. I used masking tape to secure the hammer back against the tang by wrapping the tape around the stock, tang and hammer.

 

Interestingly enough, I measured 3 Hornady Leverevolution rounds and 3 Winchester Super X Silvertips. The Hornady rounds had a gap of .006" and the Winchester gap was .007" SO, if I slip a .005" shim in there I might have some issues with factory loads. It's a CAS rifle so I will not worry about that right now.

 

I do not trust the bolt safety on this Rossi so here is how I made the rifle safe to do my live round testing:

Rossi 92 Making it safe.JPG

 

 

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5 hours ago, LAST CHANCE said:

Please don't tell me to buy a '73.  The first person that does has to buy drinks for everybody :lol:

 

2 hours ago, LAST CHANCE said:

I have a full length 45lc octagon 73 w/ action job in stock (under 1,000 $) at our store if you don't want to go through the headache of a cheap Rossi ;) 

Hey Everybody, Drinks are on Last Chance...YeeHaw!!!:lol::lol::lol:

 

Thanks for the offer. I will dance with what brung me for now. :)

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6 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

 

Hey Everybody, Drinks are on Last Chance...YeeHaw!!!:lol::lol::lol:

 

Thanks for the offer. I will dance with what brung me for now. :)

PR-You just wish you had a Marlin, is all........:lol:

 

OLG

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12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

PR-You just wish you had a Marlin, is all........:lol:

 

OLG

Yeah...I did have a really nice little Cowboy Comp in .38. That was a sweet little shooter...but I wanted a S&W model 19 more so I sold it and got the 19. Sometimes I could kick myself for that, and then I shoot my 19 :D

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Howdy Pat!

 

I took my 2 '92 carbines out to play this evening and ran some various bullet types through them.  I didn't live fire any I just wanted to see if I could make them launch out of the receiver.

 

With the .357 rifle it was just like I remembered.  The rifle will kick out the .38 ammo almost every time, Although I found that by tilting the barrel up from horizontal a few degrees the rounds would bounce a bit and some would stovepipe but not fly out.  Then I found if I tilted it up and shook it so that the rim was back against the stop before cycling the lever, the rounds tended to stay in the gun more often.  With .357 length bullets I could only get them to come out if I held the barrel down at about a 60 degree angle and I think they were more just falling out rather than being launched.

 

With the .45 rifle I could only get one round to come out of the receiver and it was a reject round with a 180g rnfp that I had seated too deep.  I measured it and the OAL was 1.51".  With my "Rossi Only" ammo (250g rnfp at 1.57") they all stayed in the gun but I could make them stand up intermittently.  With my regular ammo that I shoot in the '73 (180g rnfp at 1.55") they all stayed in the gun also but most of them would either stand up or lift up enough to hit the top edge of the chamber and not go in.

 

I really want to measure the gap as you're doing but can't find my feeler gauges anywhere. :angry:

 

Good idea about the tape on the hammer!  My safety measure was going out back in the heat and humidity, wish I'd seen your photo first. :(

 

If the shimming thing works out for you I may try that with my .357 and see if it will like the .38 ammo again.  When I first got the rifle for my wife, I ran lots of factory and reload .38 and .357 ammo through it to make sure it didn't have any warranty type issues before I worked on it.  It worked perfectly,  it was only after I 'slicked' it up that it started spitting out the .38s.:o

 

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15 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said:

Howdy Pat!

 

I took my 2 '92 carbines out to play this evening and ran some various bullet types through them.  I didn't live fire any I just wanted to see if I could make them launch out of the receiver.

 

With the .357 rifle it was just like I remembered.  The rifle will kick out the .38 ammo almost every time, Although I found that by tilting the barrel up from horizontal a few degrees the rounds would bounce a bit and some would stovepipe but not fly out.  Then I found if I tilted it up and shook it so that the rim was back against the stop before cycling the lever, the rounds tended to stay in the gun more often.  With .357 length bullets I could only get them to come out if I held the barrel down at about a 60 degree angle and I think they were more just falling out rather than being launched.

 

With the .45 rifle I could only get one round to come out of the receiver and it was a reject round with a 180g rnfp that I had seated too deep.  I measured it and the OAL was 1.51".  With my "Rossi Only" ammo (250g rnfp at 1.57") they all stayed in the gun but I could make them stand up intermittently.  With my regular ammo that I shoot in the '73 (180g rnfp at 1.55") they all stayed in the gun also but most of them would either stand up or lift up enough to hit the top edge of the chamber and not go in.

 

I really want to measure the gap as you're doing but can't find my feeler gauges anywhere. :angry:

 

Good idea about the tape on the hammer!  My safety measure was going out back in the heat and humidity, wish I'd seen your photo first. :(

 

If the shimming thing works out for you I may try that with my .357 and see if it will like the .38 ammo again.  When I first got the rifle for my wife, I ran lots of factory and reload .38 and .357 ammo through it to make sure it didn't have any warranty type issues before I worked on it.  It worked perfectly,  it was only after I 'slicked' it up that it started spitting out the .38s.:o

 

The faster you go the more these issues show up.

 

The most common problem with the shorter 38's is the gun will throw out, flip or stovepipe live rounds with the empty's. This is because the shorter 38 coming on to the carrier from the tube can bounce forward enough that the rim is too close to the rim slots in the guides and when you lever it fast the carrier just catapults them up or out with the empty.

         

All leveraction, pump action and semi-auto guns (long guns or handguns) are ammo length and bullet shape sensitive. Some more than other. For example, you don't think about it much if you are dealing with a rifle cal. like 3006, 308 or 223 and even 30-30. Those are bottleneck calibers. Bottlenecks always feed better than straightwall ammo, whether it is a rifle cal or a pistol cal. That's because you have a small diameter bullet going into a really big hole by comparison, the bottleneck chamber being much like a funnel.

     The original Winchester 92's were designed to work with bottleneck ammo in the 1.5" to 1.6" OAL with round nose flat point bullets. Ammo like 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20.

   What that means is they may not work well with really long 357’s. (They tend to hit the top inside of the chamber before they make the turn into the chamber) or really short 38’s.

The thing to keep in mind is these modern straight wall pistol caliber ammo leverguns (all, not just the 92’s) are a lot like semi-auto handguns. There’s just some ammo they aren’t going to work well with.

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12 minutes ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

The faster you go the more these issues show up.

 

The most common problem with the shorter 38's is the gun will throw out, flip or stovepipe live rounds with the empty's. This is because the shorter 38 coming on to the carrier from the tube can bounce forward enough that the rim is too close to the rim slots in the guides and when you lever it fast the carrier just catapults them up or out with the empty.

         

All leveraction, pump action and semi-auto guns (long guns or handguns) are ammo length and bullet shape sensitive. Some more than other. For example, you don't think about it much if you are dealing with a rifle cal. like 3006, 308 or 223 and even 30-30. Those are bottleneck calibers. Bottlenecks always feed better than straightwall ammo, whether it is a rifle cal or a pistol cal. That's because you have a small diameter bullet going into a really big hole by comparison, the bottleneck chamber being much like a funnel.

     The original Winchester 92's were designed to work with bottleneck ammo in the 1.5" to 1.6" OAL with round nose flat point bullets. Ammo like 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20.

   What that means is they may not work well with really long 357’s. (They tend to hit the top inside of the chamber before they make the turn into the chamber) or really short 38’s.

The thing to keep in mind is these modern straight wall pistol caliber ammo leverguns (all, not just the 92’s) are a lot like semi-auto handguns. There’s just some ammo they aren’t going to work well with.

 

Howdy Nate!

 

Yes I should have mentioned that to get either of these rifles to show these symptoms I had to work the lever fast and hard.  When I was using the .45 in competition, I discovered that if I worked the action very smoothly and did not slam the lever at the end of it's travel that I could get a pretty good speed without any of the stovepiping or feeding problems.

 

As you said, I figured that the problem with the .38s was the rim was already lined up with the slots while sitting forward on the carrier.  My guess about why the problem really showed up after I worked on it was due to the smoothing out I did on the left cartridge guide where the detent ball holds the carrier in the down position.  I thought I may have gone a little too far on that part.  Does that make sense?  At the time I did not think it would have been related to the width of the gap between the cartridge guides since I hadn't done anything to have changed it. (as far as I know)

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Nate, My reloads are between 1.548" - 1.554" in length. Max OAL SAAMI Std is 1.600" for reloads which puts my loads at .046" - .052" under Max OAL. I do know that rounds that are right at 1.60" do cause loading issues on my rifle. They seem to hang a bit as the Carrier  picks them up. HSM .45 Colt "Cowboy" loads are made right at 1.600" and they would "rub" a bit.

DO you think that I should load my rounds a tad longer to maybe 1.580" or so? If so I can relegate the loads that I have made up now to revolvers only and load some longer ones for the rifle. I think I decided on 1.550" length loads because a few different factory rounds I measured all came to about that, minus the HSM load, of course.

 

Interesting that Hornady Leverevolution rounds run 1.650". But they are a conical bullet with a rubbery tip so no issues, but then I do not fire those "rapid fire" either...well, as rapid as I can fire.

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