RagingThunder Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I just finished up installing the super short stroke kit into my Uberti 1873. Everything cycled good without a round and timing seemed to be good. However when there is a round added I'm having an issue. It seems to cycle good all the way until the very end. At the very end where the bolt pushes the round in the chamber after the carrier drops back down my lever is still open a little bit (1/4-1/2") and it feels like hitting a wall. So the action/lever isn't closed all the way. Would that be a headspace problem? What could I do to correct that? Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ya have to set the timing... It involves filing on the lifter arm... Pioneer Gunworks website shows you how to do this.. Rance Thinkin' do just a little at a time.. File off too much.. Ya get to buy a new lifter arm.. Don't ask how I know.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 I did the filing like they showed and my bolt is clearing the carrier all the way through the up stroke and down. The problem is at the very end after the round has been chambered and the carrier is already dropped back down. My lever is still open a little bit. Is there another area to file that I missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 They recommend doing the last of the timing with a chambered cartridge... If you've done that... the headspace can only be set by talking with PGW's and exchanging the links.. Rance Thinkin I've had to exchange some.. They will work with you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abanaki, SASS #34557 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 That only means ya gotta file it a little and I mean very little more each time until you can cycle round thru it w/o a hang up. If you can make up a batch of dummy rounds to do the testing with. Mark the dummy round very plainly( I usually paint mine bright orange. This way you can't confuse live rounds for the dummy rounds. And don't ask me why I rec ommend that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Joe@ PGW will walk you through most issues if you give him a call. Great outfit to deal with. The last thing they want is to have an unhappy customer posting on the wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Thanks for all the advice. Sounds like I might have to file a little more while testing with dummy rounds in the chamber. I sent an email a little while ago to PGW. I'll see what they have to say before I do anything else. Please don't take this as an unhappy customer. I love working on my own guns and just want to make sure I do it right. I have no complaints about PGW and have heard only good things about there service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 If the carrier isn't hanging up with a cartridge in it, don't file any more of the lifter. It sounds like the links are the wrong length; either too long or too short depending on where the bolt face ends up. Talk to Joe before you do anything else. He'll help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Thanks Tex, that's what I was thinking. I won't be doing anything until I talk to Joe. Last thing I want is to file to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 If you have correctly timed the action (cartridge rim clears the guide tab) and the gun will not close up, your head space may well be too tight. You can't fix it by Filing on any of the action parts. You can correct tight head space by removing some material from the bolt face. That operation requires that you know exactly what your doing. The other answer is to change out the links. The first step is to CALL Pioneer. Trying to resolve it thru e-mail is a waist of time and energy. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Cut a small strip of paper and slide it between the bolt and the empty case. With the action closed tightly if the paper is pinched between them and can not be pulled out you have a head space problem. You did not say what caliber your rifle is but if it is a bottle neck cartridge make sure that the shoulder is bumped back all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Thanks for all the replies. I talked to Joe from PGW so I thought I'd give an update. Joe was very willing to listen and helpful. He had me try a few things and it didn't help so we determined that it was probably tight head space and Joe said to send the inks back and he'd get me the right ones. Here's where it gets weird. I took all of the short stroke parts out and returned the rifle to 100% factory. After doing that I am now having the same exact problem stock as I did after installing the short stroke kit! I called Joe back and we were both stumped. He still held his offer to send the links back and he would get me shorter ones. But now I'm hesitant until I figure out what is causing this now even when its stock. Keep in mind this is a rifle that I've run flawless for over 6 months and I carefully timed it with and without a round. Going slow to check the carrier clearances and never slamming the carrier into the bolt. Here's some pics of where the lever stops. Up to this point everything is very smooth. Thanks for any help. I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Will it close without the dummy round with the factory links in it? Does your dummy round have a bullet in it or is it an empty case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 RT, At some point in time, have you forced the lever forward when levering the rifle? The reason is that some factory lever will bend or straighten easily when enough force is exerted on it. Sometimes the shooter does not even realize that they have done this. There is a possibility that you may have exerted a little bit more force when you brought your lever forward without realizing that you have done this, therefore, you may have straightened the lever just a little bit. When this happened, the lever will not close, therefore leaving a gap you mentioned. One option is to disassemble the rifle, if you have an extra lever by any chance, is to lay your lever side by side and see if they are even, then stand both lever while still side by side, perpendicular on a flat surface and note if there is any difference, this is not a precise way to measure, but it may give you an idea if your original lever may have straightened. Just saying, eliminating any possibilities. Good luck and hope you get if fix before shooting season start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Don't know enough from the pictures to be able to say if that round is full chambered or not. But here are the things I would try. You haven't by chance switched from shooting .38 specials to .357s have you? If so will a 38 special chamber correctly? If shooting bottleneck cases has your resizing die on your press moved? Is the shoulder set back properly? With the carrier removed can you chamber a round by hand? If not a reload what about a factory round? If you cannot chamber a round manually you have something stuck in the chamber. Maybe a piece of brass. A case could have split around the circumferance and be wedged in the chamber. Knurled straight wall cases are good at doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Take off the side plate & take a pic of the link when the lever is as closed as it will go. With & without a round chambered. Or maybe something jammed in the chamber cutout for the extractor ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Could be a squib in the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Thanks for the replies. Hopefully I don't miss anyone here. Will it close without the dummy round with the factory links in it? Does your dummy round have a bullet in it or is it an empty case? The lever will close and cycle smoothly without a round. I am using a dummy round with case and bullet. No powder or primer. I made a set of 10 rounds and have used different ones and they all do the same thing. Plus I used live rounds outside in a safe direction. Just to eliminate the dummy ones. RT, At some point in time, have you forced the lever forward when levering the rifle? I can't recall doing anything that would cause this but I have thought about this Would putting 10lbs of pressure on the lever to snap it closed do this?. Unfortunetly I don't have a lever to compare. Although if we cant figure it out I may try to buy one. PS-Looking forward to Brown township starting soon! Don't know enough from the pictures to be able to say if that round is full chambered or not. But here are the things I would try. You haven't by chance switched from shooting .38 specials to .357s have you? If so will a 38 special chamber correctly? If shooting bottleneck cases has your resizing die on your press moved? Is the shoulder set back properly? With the carrier removed can you chamber a round by hand? If not a reload what about a factory round? If you cannot chamber a round manually you have something stuck in the chamber. Maybe a piece of brass. A case could have split around the circumferance and be wedged in the chamber. Knurled straight wall cases are good at doing this. I'm shooting .38's. I haven't shot any .357's through it. With carrier removed I can freely drop a round into the chamber and it slides right in. No hang up. Take off the side plate & take a pic of the link when the lever is as closed as it will go. With & without a round chambered. Or maybe something jammed in the chamber cutout for the extractor ? I will take some more pictures later today when I get done with work. I checked the extractor cutouts and hit them with a brush and a pick just to make sure there wasn't anything in there blocking them. Could be a squib in the barrel. I ran a brush/rod all the way through no issues. I will take some more photos when I get home of the links and also I'll take pictures of the face of the bolt and the face of the chamber. With the short stroke kit, when I close the action and the lever stops it takes about 10lbs of force to snap the links/lever into the fully closed position. With stock parts it stops at the same place but only takes about 4 pounds of pressure on the lever to snap it into the closed position. Thanks everyone for the replies. I really appreciate the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Thunder, Just some thoughts after your latest post: In the picture above, is there any room between the bolt face and the rear of the cartridge case? There should be a little play, 3-5 thousandths. Does the bolt have a new extractor? Does the tip of the extractor hit up against the most forward part of the cut out above the chamber? It is also possible there is a head space problem, especially if you can fully close the lever when there is no cartridge in the chamber. It is, therefore, possible that the lever has moved a bit and the links do not fully extend without additional pressure. If possible, pics of the links with and without a cartridge case in the chamber might provide clues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Hi everyone, here's some more pics of everything. Thunder, Just some thoughts after your latest post: In the picture above, is there any room between the bolt face and the rear of the cartridge case? There should be a little play, 3-5 thousandths. Does the bolt have a new extractor? Does the tip of the extractor hit up against the most forward part of the cut out above the chamber? It is also possible there is a head space problem, especially if you can fully close the lever when there is no cartridge in the chamber. It is, therefore, possible that the lever has moved a bit and the links do not fully extend without additional pressure. If possible, pics of the links with and without a cartridge case in the chamber might provide clues. I put another dummy round in and there was no play when the round was in the chamber between the round and bolt face. I tried moving the case with a small flat tip screwdriver and it didn't budge at all. No new extractor. It's the same one I've always had. Here's some more pics: Here are some pics without a round and the action is smooth as silk Here's some pics with a dummy round and the handle not closing all the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Here are some pics of the chamber face and also of the bolt face with extractor and lower tab. You'll see what looks like wear on top of the extractor. That was me using a fine grit emery cloth to polish the top and make sure there were no burrs. As always, I really appreciate the help. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 I had a suggestion PM'd to me to take a piece of empty brass and run it through the sizing die and try it. I did and am still having the same issue but thought that might be good info to pass along. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 +1 for IM Crossdraw's conclusion. I would suspect a bent lever at this point. An Out of Battery Discharge can easily bend the lever, had exactly the same problem occur on a 73 in 38 spl with light loads. Shooter complained about getting a hard slap on the knuckles as the gun fired. After that, lever would not close. Laid lever against a known factory-fresh lever, and the top of bent lever was about 3/8 of an inch forward of the factory fresh lever. Fixed it by slapping lever in a padded vise and bending lever back to factory shape. Took a 24" cheater bar to bend the lever; bent it right at the thinnest point of the trigger guard (about where in your pictures there appears to be a small surface line going across the metal). Checked timing and gun ran fine after that. A bent lever would explain why now even the original links and lifter arm don't close up anymore, too. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Thanks GJ, I never noticed that line on the lever before and pulled out the gun to check. That line is part of the case color. It looks deceiving in the photo but it is def just part of the finish. I can't think of anything I've done to bend the lever and I just shot a match with it a couple weeks ago without any problems. However it would be prudent to see if I can get ahold of a lever for reference and check it. Any idea where I could order one? Thanks for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 My thought.. Ya seem ta know yer way around yer rifle.. So that's no problem.. Surely ya got a buddy that shoots a '73.. Why not ask him ta bring it over.. Pull his lever and compare them.. Install his lever in your rifle with yer stock links and parts.. See if that solves the issue.. If it does... Clean his rifle for him.. Order a new lever.. Keep in mind.. Your timing needs to be checked after installation of new lever.. If it doesn't.. Clean his rifle for him.. And scratch yer head and come back to the wire.. Rance Thinkin I hate it when this happens.. Thank God fer the wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Is that the same lifter arm you've always had? Ok I looked at the pictures better and if you compare the back link (closest to hammer) with a round and without you can see that without the round the top edge is tight to the frame and with the round it is not . Check to see if its just the way the picture came out or if that link is in a slightly different position with the round in it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Rotten Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 It appears the links are over toggling - going past being in a straight line as far as the 3 center lines of the pins. Works best with a very slight amount of under toggle - barely visible. I had it on mine. Bent the lever so it closed sooner. Problem sloved. If you do this and start catching cases - they'll stick open end up - then the carrier needs to come up sooner. That's the fine line of timing too much. I fixed by using a carrier with smaller bevels at the top back of carrier. Cowboys and Indian aluminum carriers have smaller bevels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Hi Rance, great advice. Thanks Most Wanted- The carrier lifter and links are the parts from the short stroke kit. You are right on the rear half of the link. The picture without the round shows it in the correct position flush with the frame. The picture with the round has that gap because the lever isn't closed all the way because of the bolt hitting the brass case of the round. If I apply about 10 pounds of pressure on the lever it will compress enough and snap the links straight and that gap would be gone and the lever would be closed. But it'll take another 10 pounds to unlock the links and open the lever. I believe the gap with the round is a symptom of the issue. I hope that makes sense. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 It appears the links are over toggling - going past being in a straight line as far as the 3 center lines of the pins. Works best with a very slight amount of under toggle - barely visible. I had it on mine. Bent the lever so it closed sooner. Problem sloved. If you do this and start catching cases - they'll stick open end up - then the carrier needs to come up sooner. That's the fine line of timing too much. I fixed by using a carrier with smaller bevels at the top back of carrier. Cowboys and Indian aluminum carriers have smaller bevels. Interesting. Can anyone else verify the two end pins and the toggle link pivot pin are supposed to be in a straight line? Does anyone have the PGW kit installed and can they take a picture of the links with the side plate off? It'd be nice to see how the lines of the links line up against the frame and how the pins all line up on someone else's rifle. The shorter links that PGW offered me would also create a slight under toggle and fix a tight headspace problem if I'm thinking about this right. I just hate to have them replace a part if it's not there fault. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Interesting. Can anyone else verify the two end pins and the toggle link pivot pin are supposed to be in a straight line? Does anyone have the PGW kit installed and can they take a picture of the links with the side plate off? It'd be nice to see how the lines of the links line up against the frame and how the pins all line up on someone else's rifle. The shorter links that PGW offered me would also create a slight under toggle and fix a tight headspace problem if I'm thinking about this right. I just hate to have them replace a part if it's not there fault. Thanks But... With all original stock parts reinstalled... Lever still won't close.. Rance Thinkin Garrison Joe and IM Crossdraw put ya on a better conclusion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 But... With all original stock parts reinstalled... Lever still won't close.. Rance Thinkin Garrison Joe and IM Crossdraw put ya on a better conclusion.. Correct. I have a shoot Saturday so hopefully I can get someone to let me compare levers. One way or the other I need to either confirm or rule it out. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 However it would be prudent to see if I can get ahold of a lever for reference and check it. Any idea where I could order one? Thanks for the help You can order one from VTI Gun Parts. But, if you are close to Lassiter, he's probably got a spare laying around his shop. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I can't recall doing anything that would cause this but I have thought about this Would putting 10lbs of pressure on the lever to snap it closed do this?.NO Unfortunetly I don't have a lever to compare. Although if we cant figure it out I may try to buy one. PS-Looking forward to Brown township starting soon! Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingThunder Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 You can order one from VTI Gun Parts. But, if you are close to Lassiter, he's probably got a spare laying around his shop. Good luck, GJ Thanks. I'm not sure who Lassiter is but the name does sound familiar. I'm hoping I can find a lever to test at my local shoot Saturday. I appreciate everyone's help and I'll make sure to post an update when I eventually figure out what the solution is. In the meantime if anyone has any input please feel free to share. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Rotten Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 My rifle hasn't made it back from Winter Range. If your links over toggle you feel it as a slight hitch as you have to "break" the toggle. I discussed this at length with several very competent gunsmiths who specialize in 73's. The important thing is the carrier lifter placing the carrier in the right place up and right place down. This is set by where the lifter arm hits the reciever at the top and bottom. Set taht thenTime it. Then if the lever doesn't close it's time to bend it. I labored for hours before I finally bit the bullet and bent it. I understand your reluctance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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