Blackey Cole Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Sorry Kiowa kid I think I accidentlently shot some of your ammo this weekend. Grabbed my saa's from USFA and a 73 plus my 87. Grabbed two boxes of 38wcf that I thought were smokeless but turned out to be bp. Then go load the 73 flip up the tang sight load three or four rounds and a light bulb come on you 38wcf doesn't have the tang on it yet as we just got it a week or so ago and dad just got the tap and drills this week. So I walk back down to the truck a pull out a box of 45colt which was luckily in there from my trip here. So I'm holding up the posse now while I'm loading the ten in rifle then five in each revolver. Go to the line the revolver was first. First shot seems to be smoking more than normal but it is cold and TrailBoss does smoke some but nope by the four shot I was sure it was bp. So I finished the day shooting cc with 38-40 bp in the revolvers and 45 colt in the rifle and the only gun with ammo expected in it was my 86 with federal 900 fps loads. But fun was had by all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 A couple of TGs told me that they were not voting this year because their vote doesn't matter since the Wild Bunch can do anything that they want to do anyway. They were still smarting over the 2014 open/closed long gun fiasco last year. I'm willing to bet that a large majority of the clubs if not all of the clubs that voted were disappointed because of the open/closed long gun rule being overturned, but they still voted. The TG's that were present did their job in trying to revamp the wording so the WB would accept it. One of the agenda items missed passage by six votes, their vote ( and four other TG's ) could have counted if their club was for it. Letting their personal feelings getting in the way of doing their job is wrong period. Nawlins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 A couple of TGs told me that they were not voting this year because their vote doesn't matter since the Wild Bunch can do anything that they want to do anyway. They were still smarting over the 2014 open/closed long gun fiasco last year. Wonder how there clubs feel about that. Personally. I would not want them as a TG ANY LONGER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 If you don't vote, then you have no right to whine about the outcome. As a side note, I was not really disappointed one way or the other with the outcome of the open/closed lever vote the first, second, third go around. It was/is what it is. I had a preference on the issue but willing to go with the majority. As well, I didn't hear of to many others that had a strong yes/no preference for the new rule. Now, when I time, I rather keep quiet and say nothing about how the long gun is discarded, I just look to see if it is pointed in a safe direction. We will sort it out later. Actually makes it simplier to Time. It is still early (two day match) but I also noticed less assistance from the TO to the shooter. Could have been the posses for those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Trapper Tom Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I too, would like to see some type of payment plan for the life membership. I think SASS would realize a larger pool of life memberships as well as increase the organizations bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Trapper Tom Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 To add to my last post: Most of the shooters I know are like me, in that when we finally have 700 or 800 of free cash, somthing always comes up to absorb it. I.e., plumbing, broken lawnmower, new tires and so on. If I make it past that, there always seems to be that rifle or shotgun down at the gunshop that I have been wanting. Sort of gets in the way. I am a lifetime member of six organizations, and achieved it through payments. It certainly worked in favor of those organizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 300 member clubs. How many and how many do they draw for their monthly shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 How to kill a thread-ask a real question. The point would be if there are really large clubs, how many members are really active. Many on their bio lists have more than one club listed. Would this mean that they have "bought" another vote ? Our input system may not be broken, but it sure is bent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 To add to my last post: Most of the shooters I know are like me, in that when we finally have 700 or 800 of free cash, somthing always comes up to absorb it. I.e., plumbing, broken lawnmower, new tires and so on. If I make it past that, there always seems to be that rifle or shotgun down at the gunshop that I have been wanting. Sort of gets in the way. I am a lifetime member of six organizations, and achieved it through payments. It certainly worked in favor of those organizations. Another gun. We need the best person for the job. And that may not always be a life member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 300 member clubs. How many and how many do they draw for their monthly shoots. How to kill a thread-ask a real question. The point would be if there are really large clubs, how many members are really active. Many on their bio lists have more than one club listed. Would this mean that they have "bought" another vote ? Our input system may not be broken, but it sure is bent. I started the thread and probably represent the example you speak of. Of the 4 clubs I list one regularly has 80-120 shooters at the monthly, one has 60-90, one only has 20-40, and one was closed due to environmental lawsuits. The membership numbers for these clubs are much higher, as not all members shoot every match. I tried to look up YOUR club but can't find it listed in the affiliated clubs section! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatneck Clem Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Steeldust Dan I carried a number of proxy's to the convention from West Texas. Your club was not included. Did your club TG even take the time to send a proxy? Goatneck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 A couple of TGs told me that they were not voting this year because their vote doesn't matter since the Wild Bunch can do anything that they want to do anyway. They were still smarting over the 2014 open/closed long gun fiasco last year. Great. A TG decides on his/her own to PUNISH their own club by not voting because they felt that the WB didn't do their job well (AKA get their head on straight about the long gun fiasco) one time last year. Those TG's knew that the WB has a final say on the rules when they took on the job! That is about as childish as things get. You had better know by the time you are a TG that not everything in SASS works perfectly. But that YOUR job is to help improve and promote the game. This kind of behavior does neither. IMHO - Pull them from the position and replace with a level-headed pragmatist who can see the future coming. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Again there is a lot of talk about whether or not TGs are doing their job and if their is enough club management to facilitate voting. Have the vote After the convention With the Final wording via Email to all SASS members. This is not about how the votes turned out this year but about how many people are complaining about lack of TG and club support to get their vote in. Like I said earlier I have a great TG and my votes were counted but reading this thread says that there is a gap in the system for many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 There isn't gap. A TG takes on a bunch of financial responsibility to be TG and go the the Convention. Low turnout could have been caused by 1. Apathy of the TG or their club. 2. The date changed and many couldn't get the time off or had other plans. 3. Forget the cost of the life membership. It takes about $2,500 to go to one of these. Most clubs can't help out or? And then start adding up going year after year. 4. Every club could have voted through Proxy or Slip Noose. No excuse not to. For clarity from a guy who was mad about the WB pulling the lever rule back, the rule was approved and within a few short months it was being applied incorrectly by some clubs or events. WB pulled it back so the rule could be revisited and edited to get the intent clear. They did the right thing. They just didn't communicate it out very well. They said that will be corrected and it was. The final wording of the lever rule was issued 5 days from the TG meeting as promised by the WB. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Ike , your point #4 is the gap. You and others say there is no excuse yet many clubs didn't vote. Because a club or a TG isn't doing their job some members votes aren't being counted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Most wanted I feel you frustration about votes not counting but the thing to do is replace those that are not doing their job and volunteer to do it their place. If the majority doesn't agree with you find a club where you are part of the majority. There are several that like to do the things the way they are doing them now and fight change with everything. Been there done that a decade ago and still paying the price. I've made my share of mistakes along the way also. But in my current mindset it is just fun to play the game. The politics muddies the fun. If asked I would think hard about being a TG again as I'm not as healthy or financially stable as I was a decade ago. I shot last Saturday and still hurt from it a week later not as bad as I did Saturday evening or Sunday but more than I did a week ago tonite. If you can not get you officers and tg to do there job ask to help them if they refuse find another club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 There isn't gap. A TG takes on a bunch of financial responsibility to be TG and go the the Convention. Low turnout could have been caused by 1. Apathy of the TG or their club. 2. The date changed and many couldn't get the time off or had other plans. 3. Forget the cost of the life membership. It takes about $2,500 to go to one of these. Most clubs can't help out or? And then start adding up going year after year. 4. Every club could have voted through Proxy or Slip Noose. No excuse not to. For clarity from a guy who was mad about the WB pulling the lever rule back, the rule was approved and within a few short months it was being applied incorrectly by some clubs or events. WB pulled it back so the rule could be revisited and edited to get the intent clear. They did the right thing. They just didn't communicate it out very well. They said that will be corrected and it was. The final wording of the lever rule was issued 5 days from the TG meeting as promised by the WB. Ike Where did you get this idea from? The WB didn't pull the rule back so it could be revised. They pulled it back because they felt it didn't adhere to the original intent that restricted the intentional closing of a long gun's action after clearing. Really interested on what info you have that clubs were applying the 2013 Summit rule incorrectly. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checotah Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Seems like there are two fundamental issues being discussed here: the life membership requirement for TG, and the voting of the TG's. On the former, with the slowing of numbers of new shooters (compared to the past) and the raising of the cost of life memberships, I have wondered if it is time to reconsider that requirement. I know locally, the number of life members is gradually dwindling, with older shooters stopping and newer shooters not stepping up to Life. This can leave a limited few qualified, and probably fewer interested in taking on the duties. When you factor in the reality that a Life Member is not necessarily the most dedicated or most qualified individual, you can face a situation where the best is not your rep. There are solutions to this, such as alternative pricing structures or membership requirements, but all that is in the laps of the WB since they set that particular rule. I do think it is something they would be wise to consider, if they haven't already. As far as the voting, this apathy has been present for a long time, as long as I have been a TG. I have wanted a listing of voting clubs for a long time, but that has not been provided. A voting record of 1/3 of existing clubs has been around a LONG time, and, to me, is indicative of something broken. Either the individual TG's. the clubs' disinterest, or the process itself. Sure, the question of Senate vs. House is worth discussion, but, to me, the bigger one is WHY is there such apathy? I know that I have represented my club in every Summit vote, either personally or by proxy, but I am obviously the minority. With such apathy, something is not right. I wish I knew what that is and how to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Where did you get this idea from? The WB didn't pull the rule back so it could be revised. They pulled it back because they felt it didn't adhere to the original intent that restricted the intentional closing of a long gun's action after clearing. Really interested on what info you have that clubs were applying the 2013 Summit rule incorrectly. Phantom Hello Phantom, He got it at the Summit from Misty. One of the TGs even admitted to intentionally closing his double. Misty apologized for the way this was handled and advised that TG input was desired before implementing a rewrite of the rule to conform to the TG vote in Branson. Her suggestion was to remove the word "open." The TGs agreed that it would remove subjectivity about what happens from the rule, if the gun closes after being emptied. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Hello Phantom, He got it at the Summit from Misty. One of the TGs even admitted to intentionally closing his double. Misty apologized for the way this was handled and advised that TG input was desired before implementing a rewrite of the rule to conform to the TG vote in Branson. Her suggestion was to remove the word "open." The TGs agreed that it would remove subjectivity about what happens from the rule, if the gun closes after being emptied. Regards, Allie Right, but that's not applying the 2013 Summit rule incorrectly as Mr. Ike said. That's applying the rule in a way that wasn't intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Hello Phantom, He got it at the Summit from Misty. One of the TGs even admitted to intentionally closing his double. Misty apologized for the way this was handled and advised that TG input was desired before implementing a rewrite of the rule to conform to the TG vote in Branson. Her suggestion was to remove the word "open." The TGs agreed that it would remove subjectivity about what happens from the rule, if the gun closes after being emptied. Regards, Allie The newly released wording seems to allow closing a long gun after clearing it on purpose. Say a double shooter wants to more easily restage it vertically. See below wording from SASS. It is interesting/ since closing the long gun on purpose after clearing it, seemed to be the issue that kicked off the rewording and ruckus with the WB after the Summit a year ago. The WB did not believe closing a long gun on purpose was included in the intent of the rule as passed a year ago by the TGs. The new wording "if the action of a long gun closes" seems to be all encompassing including accidentally closing, closed by shooter on purpose, weak spring on a lever allows lever to close when restaged, etc. "Long guns will be cleared and discarded with barrels pointing safely downrange. If the action of a long gun closes after being cleared then the competitor will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing the long gun to be clear. Appropriate penalties will apply if the long gun is not clear." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The newly released wording seems to allow closing a long gun after clearing it on purpose. Say a double shooter wants to more easily restage it vertically. See below wording from SASS. It is interesting/ since closing the long gun on purpose after clearing it, seemed to be the issue that kicked off the rewording and ruckus with the WB after the Summit a year ago. The WB did not believe closing a long gun on purpose was included in the intent of the rule as passed a year ago by the TGs. The new wording "if the action of a long gun closes" seems to be all encompassing including accidentally closing, closed by shooter on purpose, weak spring on a lever allows lever to close when restaged, etc. "Long guns will be cleared and discarded with barrels pointing safely downrange. If the action of a long gun closes after being cleared then the competitor will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing the long gun to be clear. Appropriate penalties will apply if the long gun is not clear." It appears, to me, from the discussion at the 2015 (January) Summit and the resulting rewording that the intent now is that it doesn't matter if it is open or closed as long as it is empty. It is no longer constructive to rehash what individuals' opinions are about the events of last year, when we now have a clear rule to follow. If people wish to continue to flog the WB, over those events, either by implication or directly, take it off line or I will close this thread based on the following Guideline. "Moderators have the authority to Close Topics and are directed to do so when the message: • Is beating a dead horse; • Is instigating in nature; • Contains good and valuable information but is heading in a non-productive direction; • Point is clearly made, both sides had their say or a truce or mutual understanding is made." I firmly believe that one of the goals of our rule books is consistent application of our rules. That is what this rewording should be and is an attempt to ensure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 As I have stated before any TG who does not vote for what ever reason is just wrong period . Do the club members care if the TG voted or not. They have a right to asktheir TG. The cost of becoming TG's is expensive no doubt about it but, if there is really a club disinterest in the voting process then all of this is a moot point. Nawlins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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