Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 In order to help keep another thread "on track" I thought I'd start this one. Why do TGs have to be Life Members? Let's say for the sake of argument that the best qualified and only one with the time and willingness to do the job properly is now 64 and figures to only be capable of shooting until they are 70. Let's do the math: 6x$45=$270 vs $750. Ouch! As an alternative how about requiring that they've been a member for (let's say) 3 years? Or maybe drop the reduced rate to 60 years old? Question was asked in another thread, why don't the members vote them out if they aren't doing their job? I heard tell some are appointed, not voted on. Don't know if that's a problem or not. As far as Clubs not being represented in the vote, either by attendance or proxy, wouldn't it be easy to just pull the SASS affiliation from any club not represented? Way to simple? Heck, I don't know all the answers. Just pondering the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I wonder the same thing. What was the reasoning behind requiring that they be a life member? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 I almost forgot: Why can't we get a spreadsheet posted listing which clubs voted, which did not and HOW they voted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I almost forgot: Why can't we get a spreadsheet posted listing which clubs voted, which did not and HOW they voted? That would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I didn't vote this year. I had only one member with an opinion and while I value that opinion and it was exactly the same as mine I felt it wasn't really fair to throw my ballot up there without really representing a group. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tecate Slam 99188 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Chickamauga Charlie, You should have voted cause You would have been representing the Vocal Majority which would have been a political anomoly. I just say'n Tecate Slam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 suppose so. as it is all but one went the way I'd have voted. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 suppose so. as it is all but one went the way I'd have voted. CC That don't matter. You let that member down when you did not vote. He trusted you to take his vote. And you failed to do so. As long as you gave ALL the members a chance to tell you how they wanted you to vote for them. If they don't let you know. That's on them. But you not voting at all. That's on YOU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Perhaps at the time of that rule making, a Life Member was a more mature/knowledgeable/committed to the sport/dedicated person. You would have to have most of those characteristics to pay up a Life Membership fee. A club w/o a TG can always have another club that has a TG vote their proxy. The vote of the memebership gets there, if they truely want it. If members are not interested enough to follow the Wire, paper, coffee shop gossip, whatever, then that speaks volumes of their degree of caring. I witnessed most club shooters not caring one way or the other. Especially these last two changes. Just think, a TG of a verrrrrrrrrrrry small club has the same voting power as a TG of a verrrrrrrrrrrry large club. I don't see anything broke, perhaps bent a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I've always understood it as a life membership shows a certain level of commitment to the sport. Did not have a problem wth the policy when I wasn't a life member and don't have a problem with it now. I am generally concerned with folks that have a goal of "wanting" to be in a position such as TG . It's a labor of love not another feather in your cap. It's the clubs responsibility to make sure they are being represented by their TG. I carried a proxy for 4 different clubs plus the 2 I am a TG for. It's not that hard to participate. It does not take any more time to contact SASS and inform them that another TG will be carrying a proxy for your club as it does write a SASS wire post complaining about the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I understand Deuce's thoughts on commitment ,that being said, it really limits clubs on their choices for TG. Some folks might really be committed but cannot afford a life membership or just not feel its a good value,or for some folks to put out a large chunk of money. Some might really be committed but lack computer skills, time, etc. I wish SASS would drop the life membership and let the club's decide who is qualified the best and committed to be TG not just because a person is a life member. Regard's AO We are really lucky in are area that we do have some really great TG's that keep us up on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I didn't vote this year. I had only one member with an opinion and while I value that opinion and it was exactly the same as mine I felt it wasn't really fair to throw my ballot up there without really representing a group. CC Next year you should vote, even if your club gives you little or no input on issues. If you can't be there to vote in person send it by proxy. It is what I had to do this year due the convention being moved to later date. As far as life member requirement, it is in place to show a commitment to the sport as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Next year you should vote, even if your club gives you little or no input on issues. If you can't be there to vote in person send it by proxy. It is what I had to do this year due the convention being moved to later date. As far as life member requirement, it is in place to show a commitment to the sport as I understand it. Judging from the percentage of TGs that did vote I'd say there are a lot more TGs with money than commitment. p.s. The clubs I belong to currently have GREAT TGs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 It is time to do away with requiring TGs to attend the convention, and instead institute electronic voting. TG attendance at the conventions is a way to simply increase attendance at an event that is slowly going down hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Judging from the percentage of TGs that did vote I'd say there are a lot more TGs with money than commitment. p.s. The clubs I belong to currently have GREAT TGs! So you are saying the people that attended the convention are all rich folk and their votes really don't reflect the masses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Here is what SASS has written about TGs. http://www.sassnet.com/TG-Main-001A.php A Territorial Governor is: A life member of SASS Appointed/elected by the SASS affiliated club members he or she represents The affiliated club's official representative at SASS Territorial Governor meetings Committed to serving the interests of his or her club consistent with the promulgation and preservation of Cowboy Action Shooting and "the Spirit of the Game." RO II Certified. Computer savvy with current e-mail address on file at all times. Role Summary Territorial Governor is the elected/appointed representative of his or her SASS affiliated club. The Territorial Governor's term of office expires each December 31st. There is no limit to the number of terms one individual may serve. The Territorial Governor not only represents his constituents to the national body, but also represents the national body to the membership. As with any good politician, the Governor may have personal reservations regarding a position adopted by the Governors, but is always in a position to support and defend "the party line". The SASS Board of Directors recognizes the Territorial Governors must be in a position of more than mere advisors for this vision to work. While the SASS Administrative Office and the SASS Corporate Officers have their roles and responsibilities and are chartered with making the decisions necessary to run the company, those issues, policies, and decisions that directly impact the rules of the Cowboy Action Shooting? game will be voted upon by the Territorial Governors. Questions and issues may originate anywhere, but once they are forwarded to SASS Headquarters, the SASS national organization will frame the questions for the Governors, collect the Governor responses, and construct the proposed revised rules or policies. These proposed revisions will then be reviewed and approved by the Governors. While many of the Territorial Governor votes will be at the national and regional match meetings chaired by the Wild Bunch, the Territorial Bulletin will generally be used to set the agendas and often used to distribute voting issues. Instructions will be provided in the Bulletin describing the response process. Specific Duties Territorial Governors gather comments, criticisms, needs, suggestions, and proposed rule changes, and communicate these to the SASS Board of Directors Maintain current knowledge regarding Cowboy Action Shooting and SASS, its history, philosophy, purpose, presence, direction, and Spirit of the Game Communicate the Cowboy Action Shooting story locally/regionally to further the growth of the game Represent and support SASS, its philosophy, and its purpose to club members Network with other clubs and Territorial Governors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 So you are saying the people that attended the convention are all rich folk and their votes really don't reflect the masses? NO! I'm saying the TG's who DIDN'T vote (either in person or by proxy) Had the money to qualify but didn't show the commitment. YOU on the other hand have plenty of money and show plenty of commitment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 It is time to do away with requiring TGs to attend the convention, and instead institute electronic voting. TG attendance at the conventions is a way to simply increase attendance at an event that is slowly going down hill. TG's are no longer required to attend the convention in order to summit votes. They have always been permitted to send their votes with another TG. They can now submit their votes to Slipnoose for inclusion in the voting. This year almost 50 clubs did that. There is absolutely no excuse for a club to not have a voice in the voting process. It is desirable for TG's to attend the convention because there is a lot of other discussion beyond the agenda items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 The TG summits are about much more than just the agenda. The discussions are a helpful method of clarifying misunderstandings about the rules. I always send a detailed report to a large mailing list after the Convention. Those people are not all from my area. Many of them asked to be included in the many mailings (primarily rule clarifications) I send during the year. I also send my post summit report to the TGs who gave me their proxies. Although, I am not a winning shooter, I am committed to this sport and do my best in the areas where I can add something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Could not agree more. I was asked to be a TG of a club and had to decline because of the Life requirement. Not against it, but had better things to do with the dollars at the time. Removal of the requirement might open the TG position to a wider assortment of club members, and the clubs could select and maintain a better rep. JM +1 Think some club are limited to WHO they can pick just because of who is a life member. The best person for the job. May not be able to afford a life membership. Think some might be just sticking whoever they have in there just because they are the only one in the club to hold a life membership. Missing out on having the right person for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 There is absolutely no excuse for a club to not have a voice in the voting process. It is desirable for TG's to attend the convention because there is a lot of other discussion beyond the agenda items. I agree 100%. No excuse for not voting. Either as a club member or TG. While voting can be done via proxy TG's need to be there in person to participate in the discussions. Look at all the posts in the last week related to what was discussed and clarified in contrast to what was voted on. Almost no one is talking about the ballot items but the discussion items are a real hot topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 It's not just about life memberships. Being a TG is a MAJOR time/financial commitment. Yes, we have a proxy vote process, but to be fully involved in the discussions leading up to votes and clarifications requires travel. And travel requires time and money. Lots of it. What disposable income I have, and it isn't much these days, will be spent on shooting, not sitting in a room discussing/arguing points of what is open or closed and what is the penalty, or what should the name of a shooting category be. Sure, we can penalize clubs for not participating, but why? Is not a vote of the TGs based upon the number of TGs present? If a club can't or won't participate, then its that club's and its members loss. I can remember in the early days of the Territorial Governors process, some TGs represented four or more clubs because life memberships were not that common. Same can happen today, and once again, there is the proxy process. For more participation we need to be concentrating on making the process less expensive and more relevant. How demoralizing it must be to spend valuable time and money to attend the Summit just to see your efforts whisked away by a unilateral decision of the Wild Bunch. The WB has that right, but it can and does have unintended consequences. Just my view from the fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 It's not so much about Life Membership but who's paying for the TG to attend. I did a cost tabulation. With airfare, hotel, food, taxi's and no spouse going you're looking at $2,000. Now who's paying for that? That's a lot of shoots. Throw in a spouse, friend etc and add another $200 without any retail therapy added. At least the Life membership gets you a badge and no more annual fees. If you bought it 10 years ago it would have paid for itself by now. Maybe a 2 year payment plan for Life membership. TG'a with Proxies works as long as they have the authority to change the clubs vote based on the discussion that takes place at the TG meeting. When I walked into the room my club's were voting for the name change from Grand Dame to Golden Girls. After discussion I changed my vote on leaving the name alone. Minor thing but like moving and shooting, a few proxies would have approved the change. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Electronic voting won't work because there is a need for discussion on the items prior to voting. The technology isn't there to have 700 +/- TG's on line to hear and or participate int he discussion. Not in favor of posting which club voted for what. No bodies business but the clubs. IKe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I would call SASS but I bet that a club that doesn't have a TG, still can submitt a vote thru Slipnoose as long as your an affiliated club, but call to make sure, a TG is a focal point . KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 ..., a TG is a focal point nothing more. KK Huh! I am not sure what that means. Please clarify. I spend way too much time on being the best TG I can be to be called a "focal point." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree with dropping the Life membership requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Huh! I am not sure what that means. Please clarify. I spend way too much time on being the best TG I can be to be called a "focal point." It's not a bad thing, A point that the club can voice it's opinion or a decision to pass it on. The rest of the description above is something the TG takes on in order to be a good TG. KK The club or clubs come to you so your a central point of contact, correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Just for the record. If a member is 65 or older the Life Membership fee is $500.00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I would like to see a SASS Life membership deal like the one the NRA ran a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Perhaps a time payment plan with a discount for yearly memberships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tecate Slam 99188 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 "TG's with Proxies works as long as they have the authority to change the clubs vote based on the discussion that takes place at the TG meeting. When I walked into the room my club's were voting for the name change from Grand Dame to Golden Girls. After discussion I changed my vote on leaving the name alone." I TG'a with Proxies works as long as they have the authority to change the clubs vote based on the discussion that takes place at the TG meeting. When I walked into the room my club's were voting for the name change from Grand Dame to Golden Girls. After discussion I changed my vote on leaving the name alone. Minor thing but like moving and shooting, a few proxies would have approved the change. Ike As the holder of a Proxy Vote for someone, you have been entrusted to deliver that vote based on that person's or group's decision one way or another. Unless specifically granted permission by the group to exercise your single opinion on an issue in lieu of theirs, why would you expect to have the freedom to change someone's decision other than your own ? This action is an example of why government officials get bad reputations when these representatives of the people do not carry out the will of the people. I'm just say'n. TS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 "TG's with Proxies works as long as they have the authority to change the clubs vote based on the discussion that takes place at the TG meeting. When I walked into the room my club's were voting for the name change from Grand Dame to Golden Girls. After discussion I changed my vote on leaving the name alone." As the holder of a Proxy Vote for someone, you have been entrusted to deliver that vote based on that person's or group's decision one way or another. Unless specifically granted permission by the group to exercise your single opinion on an issue in lieu of theirs, why would you expect to have the freedom to change someone's decision other than your own ? This action is an example of why government officials get bad reputations when these representatives of the people do not carry out the will of the people. I'm just say'n. TS +1 If they change a vote that the club sent them with. THEY BETTER HAVE A DARN GOOD REASON. Unless the discussion with the club was of the sort that if the wording was changed they would change there vote. And if they changed it. They had better TELL the club they changed it and WHY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Hi Tecate Slam, I voted as my club and proxies wished. However, I can see the Golden Girl item as being flexible. Some clubs do not have anyone in or near that age. The club's voters may have said something to the effect, "well if that is what those ladies want, okay." After the discussion by several ladies in or nearing that age group and relayed by TGs with women in that group, the item appeared to not be as universally accepted as some clubs may have thought. I signed the petition to get it on the agenda. However, after reading what others had to say and giving it some thought, I, personally, was not in favor of the change. I do not regret having it on the agenda for the majority to decide, Regards, Allie Mo PS Beware of "the broad brush." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 It seems that the proposed new rules are put into print and then clubs vote. Then a club of 3 has the same weight as a club of 300 (not good ). Then a percentage of TGs are able to make the convention due to any number of reasons. While at the convention the percentage of TGs that were able to make it talk about the rules that were put up for a vote and in some cases change the wording to were the votes polled before the convention could be useless. So wouldn't it make more sense to have the convention and make the Final wording available to the sass members via email and let the members vote. That way each member carries the same weight and their vote is not wasted on a rule that will be reworded. Also the member has only themselves to blame if they didn't get counted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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