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WTC, part 2


Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

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If SASS would just do away with the ridiculous notion that a safety violation can be undone, none of these situations would be hard to understand.

 

...or do away with the notion that an EMPTY case/hull is somehow a danger to ANYONE.

 

...that would make the entire discussion MOOT.

 

There is also a specific allowance to restage (for further use) a rifle with the action closed/hammer down on a fired case;

additional unfired rounds in the magazine (RO1 p.16)

...this is somehow NOT a safety issue unless the shooter has finished using the rifle and has "discarded" it...then it is subject to a possible THREE MSVs.

 

<_<

 

FWIW - Any changes to the current rules require a 2/3 vote of approval by the Territorial Governors...or a mandate (executive order) by the Wild Bunch.

Some of the issues at hand have been addressed at previous TG Summit meetings...and failed to pass in regard to removing perceived safety penalties.

 

PWB

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...or do away with the notion that an EMPTY case/hull is somehow a danger to ANYONE.

 

...that would make the entire discussion MOOT.

 

There is also a specific allowance to restage (for further use) a rifle with the action closed/hammer down on a fired case;

additional unfired rounds in the magazine (RO1 p.16)

...this is somehow NOT a safety issue unless the shooter has finished using the rifle and has "discarded" it...then it is subject to a possible THREE MSVs.

 

<_<

 

FWIW - Any changes to the current rules require a 2/3 vote of approval by the Territorial Governors...or a mandate (executive order) by the Wild Bunch.

Some of the issues at hand have been addressed at previous TG Summit meetings...and failed to pass in regard to removing perceived safety penalties.

 

PWB

I agree, and that is my point. If it can be corrected it is a procedure issue not a safety issue.

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Some of y'all are looking at this all wrong................these type of rules have been put in place to keep me from cheating taking advantages of loopholes

 

<_<

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Post #36 - the TG's should continue to work this issue to obtain the 2/3 vote to eliminate this penalty.

 

In the situation described, if the TO had not done or said anything - the shooter would have received a MSV. The TO is not required to do or say anything in the situation described. The TO did not interfere - as the shooter was not in the process of returning to clear the firearm - No Reshoot. The firearm is not supposed to be touched. The TO's action was moot. The shooter did not clear the firearm. The shooter receives the MSV.

 

The Wild Bunch could mandate the change in the empty hull/case Rule. Suggest the TG's make this request of the Wild Bunch.

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Howdy CC,

This is a great WTC in that it shows how it can be a real problem. Just think how much discussion would happen on a stage in this situation.

 

PWB post #36 hits the nail on the head.

 

It's an old discussion that keeps coming back " empty rounds left in a gun" It's safe to holster a revolver with the hammer on a empty, stage a rifle hammer down on an empty and unfired rounds still in the magazine if the rifle is going to be fired again. Now if a empty round is left in a long gun that has been stage it is very dangerous REALLY!!.

 

It's time that the rule for leaving an " empty " should go away.

 

Nawlins

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what is sad is the fact that most TOs and shooters don't read the wire,,,, they are in their own lil world of "what I think the rule is".

 

at a regional lately the MD and a TG said a round picked up that was ejected was a miss because it was used.... msv yes, miss no, if the target was hit that is....

 

oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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what is sad is the fact that most TOs and shooters don't read the wire,,,, they are in their own lil world of "what I think the rule is".

 

at a regional lately the MD and a TG said a round picked up that was ejected was a miss because it was used.... msv yes, miss no, if the target was hit that is....

 

oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like to ask these to folks when was the last time they read the HB's???? I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people that run the timers that will tell you " they know the rules" but can't remember the last time they look at the HB's

Nawlins

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IMO, when someone picks up that little buzzer thingy, there's more to the job than pushing a button and calling out the time. I understand that a call must be made when "nobody saw it until it was too late" although, again IMO, I think a TO doing their job should be looking for the last case to come out of a long gun AND looking to see that the action remains open.

 

Nobody's perfect, the best TO will sometimes make a mistake, but a TO should know that instead of removing a case or opening the action, they should call the shooter back. For all they know, the shooter could lay down their shotgun, take off running to their next shooting position, pull a pistol (not yet cocked) and have the thought "Did I clear my shotgun?," look back and see a hull hanging out, move back to it (keeping their pistol pointed in a safe direction), remove the hull, then move back to the pistol position and continue the stage without a MSV. If so, when the TO removed the hull, they removed their ability to do that. How is that not interference? IMO, it is.

 

One of the items on the TG Agenda, if passed, will clarify that if the action of a long gun is closed by the TO or anyone else other than the shooter, there will not be a MSV. It appears that while we're at it, we should clarify that if they remove the shooter's ability to avoid a MSV by removing a hull or opening a lever, they have interfered. Dang, while we're at it, let's make sure that if the TO knocks their gun off a table, the shooter doesn't get a SDQ.

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...or do away with the notion that an EMPTY case/hull is somehow a danger to ANYONE.

 

As you know, we have tried for years to get this rule removed. IMO, it has required a great deal of "Word-smithing" to the rule books in order to be accommodated, which has just Muddied the waters. How simple would it be if the empty case rule and the lever rule were completely removed...... have the shooter show clear on the stage before exiting.... it works for others who have been doing these type games longer than we have.

 

Snakebite

 

Also.... Larry.. you must be getting taller, or I am getting shorter. We seem to be seeing eye-to-eye more lately. ;)

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This issue (including the "Lever Buddy" question) is up for further clarification by the WB-mandated rewrite of the "Action Open" rule(s).

 

 

With the OP scenario, the clarification/rewrite will now have to consider if the "Lever Buddy" rule is enforced before the next gun is fired, they will then have to consider the "Lever Enemy" aspect that will be created.

With cheaters it never ends...... :angry:

 

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My point is up to the time that the penalty is actually earned, if the TO interferes and precludes the shooter from correcting it without penalty the shooter should not be penalized.

I tend to agree.

 

If TO or anybody else NEVER says "hull" (which isn't bad coaching or interference but no coaching) and shooter fires next gun, then he earned the penalty,,,,even though the Bad TO plucked the hull out. The empty still would've been there. Thus a MSV.

 

If, before the next gun was fired AND someone even breathed 'hull' and shooter turned and looked and could've went back safely, but TO had already tampered with gun, then a Reshoot. I think I am saying the same thing as MM.

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Cheyenne, your forgetting one thing the shooter is responsible to ensure the gun is discarded in a safe manor. That includes ensuring it is open and empty when he sets it down or it leaves his hand. You earn everything good and bad. The timers job is to safely assist you through the course of the stage. Just because some one rectifys an unsafe condition that you missed doesn't mean it didn't exist and you didn't earn a pentaly. Now if he would have done it before you could correct it if you attempted to correct the problem is a case where you might have reason for a reshoot since he impeded you from correcting it but if you never attempted to fix the problem then you get the pentaly.

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I NEVER sed that leaving a long gun with an empty should not be a penalty!

 

it's the other actions that throw a wrench in things,,,,,

 

and TOs shud never open the lever or pull an empty out!!! Now, they shud holler, do what ever they can to get the shooter to fix them tho!!!

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As you know, we have tried for years to get this rule removed. IMO, it has required a great deal of "Word-smithing" to the rule books in order to be accommodated, which has just Muddied the waters. How simple would it be if the empty case rule and the lever rule were completely removed...... have the shooter show clear on the stage before exiting.... it works for others who have been doing these type games longer than we have.

 

Snakebite

 

Also.... Larry.. you must be getting taller, or I am getting shorter. We seem to be seeing eye-to-eye more lately. ;)

Doug, I think over the last 20 years, we have seen eye to eye more times than you're admitting. ^_^

 

Fillmore

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IMO, when someone picks up that little buzzer thingy, there's more to the job than pushing a button and calling out the time. I understand that a call must be made when "nobody saw it until it was too late" although, again IMO, I think a TO doing their job should be looking for the last case to come out of a long gun AND looking to see that the action remains open.

 

+1

Over the years when I was either a BM or waiting for a posse to finish shooting I have seen TO's not doing their job properly. They were watching the targets or if possible not being in good position to watch for the last empty to come out. A lot of this would go away when the TO's do their job!!!

And if a TG does the BUDDY CHEAT then they should be replaced!!!!

 

Nawlins

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