Resizing Bullets

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I bought an Uberti 1860 Henry .44-.40 a year or two ago and have only plinked with it without apparent problems. It was imported by American Arms if that helps identify its age. When I tried running it thru a match this past weekend I discovered that some of my reloads required some effort to chamber fully. They'd feed ok, but resistance would increase in the final 1/8" or so of going into battery.

 

Visually the rounds seemed ok and there were no mechanical issues with the rifle, so I did some research. The latter half of Driftwood Johnson's post #8 made me look again and I now think my bullets are too large. Here's the data:

 

Starline brass

200 gr, .430 bullet (my calipers say .430+)

Bore slugs at .429

Lyman dies with Lee Factory Crimp

 

I marked a dummy round with a Sharpie and the photo below shows where it's binding just below the crimp. (The crimp looks bad because the bullet telescoped a bit when I tapped the round out through the muzzle).

 

I've never cast or sized a bullet and was wondering if I could resize mine. Lee has a .429 die that looks interesting. I hate to throw out a full box of bullets.

 

Or would a Redding Profile Crimp die as mentioned in Garrison Joe' post #10 be a better option?

 

Thx for your input

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Do a chamber cast. Then there is no guess'n.

I would also try nut'n fatter than .429 dia.

Bet that's Starline brass--

LG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

American Arms imported? That would make it a late 90's or early 2000's gun, if I remember history right. Still think you will be able to run .430 bullets, though.

 

First, make sure you that your seating depth leaves a few thousands of clearance between the mouth of the case and the upper end of the crimp groove. If the mouth has to shove into the full-diameter land in front of (above) the crimp groove, you have real good chance of bulging the case neck, as you have an example.

 

Yes, a Redding Profile Crimp die will work on the neck area a little better than the Lee FCD in the .44-40 cartridge. I've tried both, and miked the resulting crimp and neck areas, and the Redding brought the diameters down about 1 or 2 thousandths smaller than the Lee die did.

 

Starline brass in 44-40 is a little thicker than average. You could try finding some Winchester, as the brass in the neck is thinner in Winnies.

 

A .430 bullet should be fine. I would check first that you are leaving a little "breathing room" between end of case mouth and the end of the crimp groove. If you run the mouth into the driving band, you got problems.

 

It's quite easy, with a lube-sizer, to rerun the bullets through a .429 sizer die and drop the diameter down a skosh. But, it's work you might not need to do if you crimp following DJ's instructions!

 

If you toss in a picture of one or two of your loaded rounds before you stick them in the gun, we could look at your seating depth with an eye to spotting a problem.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Noz]

My Uberti 44-40 won't accept a .430 without some binding. I went to 428s and have had no problems.

[Litl Red]

You've got a clear picture of what the problem is. Make and model of rifle really doesn't matter. You've got loaded rounds that are too large for your rifle chamber. The bind happens right where your Sharpie marks are scraped off. As you've figured out.

 

What I'd do first is try adjusting your crimping die to see if there is a setting that doesn't bulge the case. Also, getting the case mouth a bit lower relative to the crimping groove might help. Case length might also be a source of your problem. Seating depth could be too. If the slugs don't have a crimping groove, trying to crimp into the lead too deeply might be why the case is bulging so. Lot's of things to play with........

 

Buying sizing dies just might be spending money on something you won't use again unless you get into casting your own. Casting is a great side hobby, but not for everyone. Why not ask around and see if any of your buddies have sizing setups? See if one has that Lee bullet sizer and borrow it, if push comes to shove.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Thanks for the replies. Here's an image of a loaded round that won't chamber without extra effort.

 

OAL doesn't have any apparent effect. This one measures 1.583 and the crimp from the Lee FCD is the minimum to get this shape. Any less produces a noticele edge where it doesn't conform to the the crimp groove. Cartridge diameter from just below the crimp to the base of the bullet above the "bottle" shoulder is .433, right at the max dimension according to Lyman diagram. However, most of my rounds are closer .434.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

DS -

That looks like a very nicely loaded round. Just fat at the bottom of crimp.

 

Let's see. First, you are reading your calipers wrong. Finished diameter of the neck you are probably getting 0.444 inch at the mouth, which would be just over the spec of .443. Not 0.434. That is large. My rounds come out 0.436 to 0.438 inch with my Redding Profile Crimp Die finishing the crimp. All the way down the neck. And with slugs sized at 0.429 in my loads. Yours most likely would too with the PCD!

 

There is a noticeable bump there, perhaps caused by the band just lower than the crimp groove. You might measure diameter right there, on a "naked" slug. I would first try loading to 5 thousandths longer length and try to get the crimp on the bevel of the crimp groove rather than all the way down to the bottom of the groove. If that length will cycle on the carrier in your gun. If the bump is not caused by that land, it's caused by shoving the slug down on the case mouth walls as you seat or crimp.

 

It may just be that you have a tighter chamber than normal. Casting the chamber with cerrosafe would be a way to check, as LG stated. A trip to a good cowboy riflesmith could have the chamber cut to specs with an unworn reamer. Or, you could just size down your slugs to about .427 or 8 and load them. Or you could throw 40 bucks at a profile crimp die. Me, if I didn't want to go the easy way with the PCD, I'd think about reaming the chamber, because using .430 bullets is probably where you want to be for best accuracy with the groove diameter on your rifle.

 

Do you have any other guns in .44-40? If so, one goal of mine would be to bring them all to the same dimensions, so loading would not have to be a segregated effort.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Trailrider #896]

If the brass is anything but Winchester, I would try some Winnies, if you can find them. Winchester brass is the thinnest, and using that has solved a bunch of problems. I use .430" bullets in both my Rossi and two Vaqueros. With Winchester brass I have no problems. Doesn't mean that will solve the problem. You may have to go to .429" or smaller. But I'd try the Winnies first.

[Bugler]

I have that exact same rifle and have been running .428's with NO problems for nearly 10 years....a lot of Starline, Winchester and Remington brass....might work out that way for you as well.I also invested in a Wilson Case Gauge to check the finished product before going to a match....BIG help in so many ways!

 

Bugler

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

DS -

That looks like a very nicely loaded round. Just fat at the bottom of crimp.

 

Let's see. First, you are reading your calipers wrong. Finished diameter of the neck you are probably getting 0.444 inch at the mouth, which would be just over the spec of .443. Not 0.434. That is large. My rounds come out 0.436 to 0.438 inch with my Redding Profile Crimp Die finishing the crimp. All the way down the neck. And with slugs sized at 0.429 in my loads. Yours most likely would too with the PCD!

 

There is a noticeable bump there caused by the band just lower than the crimp groove. You might measure diameter right there, on a "naked" slug. I would first try loading to 5 thousandths longer length and try to get the crimp on the bevel of the crimp groove rather than all the way down to the bottom of the groove. If that length will cycle on the carrier in your gun.

 

It may just be that you have a tighter chamber than normal. Casting the chamber with cerrosafe would be a way to check, as LG stated. A trip to a good cowboy riflesmith could have the chamber cut to specs with an unworn reamer. Or, you could just size down your slugs to about .427 or 8 and load them. Or you could throw 40 bucks at a profile crimp die. Me, if I didn;'t want to go the easy way with the PCD, I'd think about reaming the chamber, because using .430 bullets is probably where you want to be for best accuracy with the groove diameter on your rifle.

 

Do you have any other guns in .44-40? If so, one goal of mine would be to bring them all to the same dimensions, so loading would not have to be a segregated effort.

 

Good luck, GJ

Yup, the dimensions are .443 and .444. I had transposed the digits in my head between the loading bench and typing!

 

Bullets are .430+, maybe .4303. Not enough to be significant.

 

When I do my part, the Henry is a tack driver, so I'm thinking the Redding die is a good choice if adjusting the seating depth doesn't work. I want to keep things easy as this is my only .44-40 gun and I don't shoot it that often. If that doesn't work, I can resize or get some .429s.

 

If I end up using .428 or .429 black powder bullets, will a full case of BP generate enough pressure for obduration?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If I end up using .428 or .429 black powder bullets, will a full case of BP generate enough pressure for obduration?

Yep, soft lead will bump up at least 0.002, maybe more. You should be good with that. Get some Big Lube slugs cast soft.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

If I end up using .428 or .429 black powder bullets, will a full case of BP generate enough pressure for obduration?

Howdy

 

I have been using .428 bullets in my 44-40 Henry with its .429 diameter rifling grooves for a few years now. The post you referred to tells the whole story.

 

I use the 200 grain Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet. These are cast very soft, either pure lead or just a touch of tin added. I use a full charge of Black Powder, compressed about 1/16" when the bullet is seated. I use mostly Starline brass these days because Winchester is difficult to find.

 

I cannot say for sure if the bullet is bumping up in the bore, I have not actually run any true accuracy tests. But my Henry hits every CAS target I put the front sight on, And yes, the cases obturate in the chamber, filling the chamber and preventing blow back. They come out of the chamber just as clean as if they had been loaded with Smokeless.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I had the same issue with loaded rounds - I ran them back through the sizing die and they worked well. It will probably under size your bullet a skosh, but at our distances you will be fine. Shoot 'em up and get .428s next time. If you have unloaded bullets, try for a pard with sizing equipment and see if you can run them through a smaller die..

 

CR

[Litl Red]

Your Henry is a tack driver? That's probably because the cartridges fit that chamber with so little room to spare, like no room to spare with most.

 

A different sizing die probably isn't going to get oversized bullets to fit your chamber any better than your present sizing die does. Sizing happens before the bullet shows up in the process, and can't do anything to get the crimping groove aligned to suit the crimping die best. You've already got a sizing die that probably can be used to iron the bump out of your present cartridges. But try Garrison Joe's advice first. His third paragraph is worth rereading.

 

I had the same problem with my Marlin 1894CL when test loading different diameter bullets to see if any specific sizing diameter was better than any other. Removing the primer punch from the full length sizing die was obviously the first step. Then the die was started into the single stage press with a cartridge already in the holder and the ram all the way to the top. The die was screwed in until it touched the bulge. The handle went up enough so the die could be easily turned about 1/8 turn and was locked down. Running the bullet in was easy and there was some scuffing where the bulge had been. The idea is to get the die to only affect the bulge.

[Litl Red]

Some die sets cause a problem like you're having when the neck size that results from the resizing/belling step doesn't match up good enough to the diameter of the bullet you try to push into it. When your almost finished cartridge goes under the seating/crimping die, the fat bullet fights back as the seater plug pushes it in. All appropriate diameters have friction of course, but the fat ones are trying to resize the next more.

 

The seater is going to be pushing the bullets every bit of the way. The crimper "flange" isn't going to be squeezing until the last bit. If the crimping groove of the bullet gets the mouth of the case pushed into it "too soon" and engages the groove's upper edge, the seating operation winds up trying to "shorten that case for you". This happens when you've got cases that need trimming to length, something that doesn't usually happen with straight cases like 38 and 45, but does with 44-40 and such.

 

When GJoe and I mentioned the crimping groove, it was advice that covered more than our few words could cover. Seating too deep for your case lengths is one thing underlying the advice. Thinner brass like 44-40 has is easier to bulge too.

 

BTW, be glad your rifle has a tight chamber. They're almost always more accurate that way. You don't really need it for SASS however. Don't even want it if you plan to run that gun fast as possible. But if you want to shoot long range side matches with it, you got a honey. My 1894 has a tight chamber and is hard to beat at 200yds. It ain't never going nowhere 'cept home long as I got it. BTW, if you ever get a chance, try some AA5744 full strength, the uniform velocity helps a lot at long range. Solo 1000 also has proven to be very accurate too. 44-40 is really worth the effort.

[Trailboss (Santa) Dave]

Using the .430 bullet I had the same problems, would not chamber in my pistols and were hard to chamber in my rifle. I went to the RCBS Cowboy dies and the problem went away. Just picked up a new Henry Arms Henry and it works well with the .430 bullets

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Thanks pards, for all your replies. Did some fiddling this morning to eliminate the possibilty of a crimp bulge. I also found a piece of Winchester brass and that chambers ok, but just barely. So I've decided these .430 bullets and Starline brass aren't going to work with the current setup.

 

In the meantiime, Midway USA has a Redding Profile Crimp die for $25 that I'm going to try. If that doesn't help this box of bullets, I'll get rid of them. I'm going to get some .428 Big Lubes whether the .430s can be salvaged or not, so a bullet sizer would be a waste. The PCD will be usefull regardless.

 

This has been a great thread. Thanks for all your help!

 

Regards, --DS

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

I'm sure you've already looked into belling. I had a lot of the same problems you showed, finally adjusted my belling die to a bare minimum bell and problems went away. That said, I was not using .430 bullets