Swift Stoney 49735 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I have some soft lead bullets that cause leading in my pistols and rifle that I am tired of dealing with. We have used them for about three years without any issues other than the leading. I was considering asking $20 per box of 500. Is that a fair price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Did you cast them? Any idea WHY they are leading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_slinger Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Caliber and grains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift Stoney 49735 Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 Hurricane, no I did not cast them, a local boy did. I suspect the reason for the leading is the soft wheel weight lead that was used. I am shooting them at normal cowboy speeds of around 700 fps out of my 5 1/2" Bisley .357 mag revolvers. They generate around 750 fps out of my 19" bbl 73. Guitar, .358 dia 125 gr RNFP. Should have remembered to put that in the original post. The lube used was Alox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_slinger Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 $2.22 per pound of lead. Not a steal but a fair price. I don't shoot 38/357 so it's the lead price for me but again, not a horrible price. What is the real diameter of the bullets? If they are under-sized for your bore they can cause leading. I've seen leading with even fairly hard lead if the bullets were not sized right. While my revolvers don't have this problem, some revolvers seem to have a mis-match between cylinder throats and forcing cone (the cylinder throat is a couple thousandths smaller than bore forcing bullets to be smaller than bore). This can lead to leading in forcing cone and first part of bore. If you're not getting lead from other bullets, I'd suspect the alloy or they are not sized right for your pistols. Hope you get it sorted out. Guitar Slinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Hurricane, no I did not cast them, a local boy did. I suspect the reason for the leading is the soft wheel weight lead that was used. I am shooting them at normal cowboy speeds of around 700 fps out of my 5 1/2" Bisley .357 mag revolvers. They generate around 750 fps out of my 19" bbl 73. Guitar, .358 dia 125 gr RNFP. Should have remembered to put that in the original post. The lube used was Alox. Have you checked the sizing on those. Did they size them? Or just cast and roll in Alox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I'll gautantee you, that if it was cast out of true wheel weights its not the lead. Wheel weight is one of the best cowboy bullet lead available. You can cut WW 50/50 with pure lead and still never have leading. Probably pure soft lead and or under sized. Or contaminated with Zinc?? I've seen bullets sized with,.356 Dia. (9mm/380) this will cause leading in 38/357. Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 WW are now Zinc. True WW lead is NOT soft in the lead bullet world. What lube was used and have you measured the dia of these bullets? I think they will be 'fat' for your bore dia. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 WW are now Zinc. True WW lead is NOT soft in the lead bullet world. What lube was used and have you measured the dia of these bullets? I think they will be 'fat' for your bore dia. LG Not all WW are zinc or steel yet. In my area 85% or so, is lead. The others are a mixture of zinc and steel. Regardless a small amount of zinc will screw up a lot of lead;) Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Swift Stoney, By Bisley 357 Mag, it sounds like you are shooting Rugers. If so, before you dump what may be perfectly good bullets, slug your bore. Then, drop a bullet known to be .357 or .3575 down the chamber. The bullet should hang up a mite at the chamber throat but then push thru fairly easy with a pencil. If the bullet sticks and sticks tight your chamber throats are under size and are swaging your bullets too small for your bore. The result will be leading. Ruger is famous for undersized cylinder throats. If yours are undersized, have a smith ream them to .3575 or .358. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Not all WW are zinc or steel yet. In my area 85% or so, is lead. The others are a mixture of zinc and steel. Regardless a small amount of zinc will screw up a lot of lead;) Regards, Ringer Buy what you can now-- http://wheelbalancetraining.com/site/article/lead-wheel-weight-laws-and-penalties LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Leading at CAS velocities is ALMOST ALWAYS due to the bullet or cylinder throat being too small for the bore. Even pure soft lead slugs can be shot at 800 FPS and not lead if a good lube is used. Now, if you were shooting 1400 FPS in a 357 mag load with a dead soft slug (like lots of folks used to try to do), sure, THAT will lead. Doubt it's the lead. See CC's post to check out your Ruger. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Leading at CAS velocities is ALMOST ALWAYS due to the bullet or cylinder throat being too small for the bore. Even pure soft lead slugs can be shot at 800 FPS and not lead if a good lube is used. Now, if you were shooting 1400 FPS in a 357 mag load with a dead soft slug (like lots of folks used to try to do), sure, THAT will lead. Doubt it's the lead. See CC's post to check out your Ruger. Good luck, GJ +1 I shoot Big lubes with BP. They are very soft, BHN of 8 and they do not lead the bore. I suspect all of the above responders are right. It's bullet diameter or cylinder throat size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuco Forsyth #72674 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I cast my own using pure with wheel weight, 50/50, alox as a lube and don't have a lead problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICIOUS, SASS#8014 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Howdy. Some years of Rugers were worse than others for tight throats to the bore size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I sent you a pm, I will be shooting them in front of a load of app fff in frontiersman as the only 38 I have is a 73 that I shoot with my old armies, my others are 38wcf(38-40) and 45 LC/acp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I sent you a pm, I will be shooting them in front of a load of app fff in frontiersman as the only 38 I have is a 73 that I shoot with my old armies, my others are 38wcf(38-40) and 45 LC/acp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 You may try giving them a second coat of alox. I have a batch that leaded and giving them a second coat looked like it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Or just sell them to me. I like the leading as I'm converting my pistols to shoot 32's, so that will help... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 From a pm I received he's gonna recast them adding a hardener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 From a pm I received he's gonna recast them adding a hardener. If it's the cylinder throats, All that will do is make the leading even worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I can reliability pick out zinc weights from lead. But how does one tell if lead is contaminated with zinc once it's been mixed in ingots? Last winter I bought a bunch of lead from the scrap dealer. A good bit of it was in heavy sinkers of about a pound each. Some other is in regular ingots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 how does one tell if lead is contaminated with zinc once it's been mixed in ingots? Heavy zinc contamination will throw a separate zinc layer at the top of the lead, or a heavy dross layer where the zinc will not dissolve any more into the lead alloy. Lead alloy will dissolve about 3% by weight zinc in it. Because that separates so well, it's a low profitability that ingots were cast with more than 3% zinc in them - they would look real ugly, lumpy, dirty. Less than 3% zinc is hard to see in either ingot or the casting furnace. It will raise the casting temperature of the lead alloy by about 50-100 degrees F. It will make the lead poorly fill out the mold, resulting in less sharp lube grooves, base edges, etc. If you get it hot enough to fillout, usually the bullets are frosted heavily (not a shiny surface). The easiest (but expensive) way to find out is to visit a scrap metal dealer with an x-ray fluorescence gun who is willing to run a composition report on your ingots. Some charge $10 or so a test that they do. Or you could buy one for about $25,000. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 If it's the cylinder throats, All that will do is make the leading even worse! And if it's due to the bullet being undersized for the barrel, or the alloy already being too hard for his chamber pressure, he'll also make the leading worse. Straight Wheel Weight, at about 12-14 Brinnel hardness, is TOO HARD for a low pressure cowboy load like the OP is shooting. 8 BNH is about perfect, and you can get there with half Wheel Weights and half soft lead. Wheel weights are not "soft lead" Sometimes it's hard to educate the masses. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift Stoney 49735 Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 Found a local CAS who decided he wanted them with all their fleas. To respond to some of the comments. With all my Ruger revolvers one of the first things I do is ream the cylinders. Sometimes they really need it and sometimes not so much. I personally resized all the bullets to .358 which was not all that difficult but not all that fun either. I did not recoat them with Alox after resizing which, from what has been posted, may have contributed to the problem. In any case, I now have around 65,000 bullets that do not lead so all is good. I still have around 6,000 of the old bullets that have been loaded that did lead and I will shoot them over time. Thanks for all the advice and direction. I can always depend on the Wire for a complete picture of any problem regarding cowboy shooting I may be having. Now to tune a 1911 for Wild Bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Heavy zinc contamination will throw a separate zinc layer at the top of the lead, or a heavy dross layer where the zinc will not dissolve any more into the lead alloy. Lead alloy will dissolve about 3% by weight zinc in it. Because that separates so well, it's a low profitability that ingots were cast with more than 3% zinc in them - they would look real ugly, lumpy, dirty. Less than 3% zinc is hard to see in either ingot or the casting furnace. It will raise the casting temperature of the lead alloy by about 50-100 degrees F. It will make the lead poorly fill out the mold, resulting in less sharp lube grooves, base edges, etc. If you get it hot enough to fillout, usually the bullets are frosted heavily (not a shiny surface). The easiest (but expensive) way to find out is to visit a scrap metal dealer with an x-ray fluorescence gun who is willing to run a composition report on your ingots. Some charge $10 or so a test that they do. Or you could buy one for about $25,000. Good luck, GJ Here is a sample of about 50 I got at the scrap dealer. There are a few wrinkles and voids here and there but for what they are, they look pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Here is a sample of about 50 I got at the scrap dealer. There are a few wrinkles and voids here and there but for what they are, they look pretty good. Just from color (dark blue-black) that well-aged alloy looks pretty soft. The softer the alloy, the less chance it is contaminated with zinc (or calcium). If you can't get them analyzed with a fluorescence gun, and you don't have some "Artist graphite pencils" with which to do a hardness test, I would melt a few in a small iron skillet, bring alloy temperature to 750 F (using a lead-casting thermometer), preheat a good casting mold really warm (old hot plate does this well) and hand ladle a few into molds. If they don't cast good bullets at 750 into pre-heated mold, then you DO NOT want to smelt them down into your good lead supply. And, just for grins, if they don't cast well at 750, then try heating alloy up to 850. If they cast OK there but look heavily frosted, probably contaminated with zinc (or calcium). Don't mix with your good alloy - maybe they would be worth casting hot, by hand. If they don't cast at 850, it's really bad. (And that stuff I would discard or sell back to a scrap metal dealer.) Doing this in a "smelting pot" and hand dipping rather than using your casting furnace saves you from having to scrub out a really nasty or dirty alloy that can gum up your casting pot for several batches. If you KNOW they were originally cast over 40 years ago (before zinc WW's started showing up (about 1990), and before calcium-lead batteries hit the market (about 1970)) then they probably are almost pure lead. After that date, could have zinc or calcium contamination - most folks who make lead fishing sinkers are not particular at all what they cast with. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm melting lead with Lee 20 electric pot. I probably need to invest in a thermometer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Lee pot? Yes, for sure you need a thermometer. Lee does not put in thermostats - they put in guessing-circuits. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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