Challenging MV?

[Roger Rapid]

Pards… Have any of you been to a shoot where the officials have challenged a shooter's ammo MV - and more specifically, challenged it to the point where they have chrono'd a shooter's ammo which resulted in a DQ? …RR

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Roger,

 

Only in WBAS where chronographing is SOP.

 

However, I have shot with someone whose loads were so light he should have been chronographed. He no longer shoots. No loss.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Assassin]

Typically if one is so gamey that they shoot ultra light loads, they will never achieve their desired "top gun" level of shooting. They will just fight with the guns and have other issues that are multiplied by the attempt to shoot light loads and go fast without putting in hours and hours of practice. Just ignore them and they will go away.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Interesting thread. I was shooting at a local match yesterday where an out-of-town shooter's ammo was barely igniting on one out of five rounds. This was in 100 degree temps with the guns in the hot sun. You could see one the spotters faces they were concerned about squibs. When the fellow shoots the early morning shift at EOT in 60 degree weather I wonder how his ammo will perform. Like Assassin said, ultra light loads have their issues.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Typically if one is so gamey that they shoot ultra light loads, they will never achieve their desired "top gun" level of shooting. They will just fight with the guns and have other issues that are multiplied by the attempt to shoot light loads and go fast without putting in hours and hours of practice. Just ignore them and they will go away.

...and that is the truth. My pistol ammo is 108 grain DEWC. I never have a problem with counters hearing the clangs. However, Badlands Bud shot my ammo once and did not like it as it didn't have enough recoil (or something).

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Tou will rarely see someone challenge power factor, although a MD must be prepared at an annual or above to handle it in case it comes up.

 

Same thing holds true to needing to be ready incase someone is called out for smoke standard.

[John Henry Quick]

Tou will rarely see someone challenge power factor, although a MD must be prepared at an annual or above to handle it in case it comes up.

 

Same thing holds true to needing to be ready incase someone is called out for smoke standard.

 

 

Not to be a wise guy, but how would you measure the smoke standard short of pulling a bullet? I've never been to a high level match like that. Would they actually have the shooter pull a bullet, or would it be more like, "Yup, looks like 15 grains worth of smoke to me! What do you think, Clem?"

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

 

Not to be a wise guy, but how would you measure the smoke standard short of pulling a bullet? I've never been to a high level match like that. Would they actually have the shooter pull a bullet, or would it be more like, "Yup, looks like 15 grains worth of smoke to me! What do you think, Clem?"

ROII p. 9-10"BLACK POWDER CATEGORIES It is expected the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke-obscured targets. To insure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a base line load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of ffg blackpowder. The blackpowder standard was developed using the following loading data: • Standard .38 Special case • 1cc Goex 2F Powder • Federal Standard primer • 145-grain bullet lubed with SPG • Powder lightly compressed with a medium roll crimp. Any challenges to the blackpowder standard will be administered using the process listed below in the Appeals, Challenges and Protest section. Also, the Range Master may, at their discretion, require the testing of any ammunition that is suspected of not meeting SASS ammunition requirements at any time during the match. If a competitor’s blackpowder ammunition is checked, they will be asked for five rounds from each suspect firearm, preferably already loaded at the loading table. These loads will be compared to the amount of smoke produced by this published standard regardless of the specific loading techniques or components used. Failure to comply will result in a penalty for not adhering to category guidelines. The first offence is a procedure, the second offence in the same match is a stage disqualification, and the third offence in the same match is a match disqualification. Through testing it has been determined 1cc of blackpowder, in either a .32, .38, .44, or .45 case, all produce approximately the same amount of smoke. Some types of blackpowder, or blackpowder substitutes, may produce this amount of smoke with less volume of powder. For example, a competitor may find 9 grains of one product produces the same amount of smoke as 15 grains of another. Before deciding on any reduced blackpowder or blackpowder substitutes load, a competitor should test them to ensure they meet the base line standards. Always consult with the manufacturer of the powders as to their recommendations prior to any loading. "

[John Henry Quick]

ROII p. 9-10"BLACK POWDER CATEGORIES It is expected the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke-obscured targets. To insure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a base line load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of ffg blackpowder. The blackpowder standard was developed using the following loading data: • Standard .38 Special case • 1cc Goex 2F Powder • Federal Standard primer • 145-grain bullet lubed with SPG • Powder lightly compressed with a medium roll crimp. Any challenges to the blackpowder standard will be administered using the process listed below in the Appeals, Challenges and Protest section. Also, the Range Master may, at their discretion, require the testing of any ammunition that is suspected of not meeting SASS ammunition requirements at any time during the match. If a competitor’s blackpowder ammunition is checked, they will be asked for five rounds from each suspect firearm, preferably already loaded at the loading table. These loads will be compared to the amount of smoke produced by this published standard regardless of the specific loading techniques or components used. Failure to comply will result in a penalty for not adhering to category guidelines. The first offence is a procedure, the second offence in the same match is a stage disqualification, and the third offence in the same match is a match disqualification. Through testing it has been determined 1cc of blackpowder, in either a .32, .38, .44, or .45 case, all produce approximately the same amount of smoke. Some types of blackpowder, or blackpowder substitutes, may produce this amount of smoke with less volume of powder. For example, a competitor may find 9 grains of one product produces the same amount of smoke as 15 grains of another. Before deciding on any reduced blackpowder or blackpowder substitutes load, a competitor should test them to ensure they meet the base line standards. Always consult with the manufacturer of the powders as to their recommendations prior to any loading. "

 

Thanks Allie, but that's still not very clear. It sounds to me like the Range Master is comparing amounts of smoke rather than pulling bullets and measuring powder - a more subjective standard I cannot imagine, particularly on a windy day.

[guitar_slinger]

OK, newbie here. My first match last month, I took some good natured ribbing about my "hot" loads. I know we're not supposed to recommend specific loads here. I will say it was a "standard" load of Unique under a 250gr RNFP 45 Colt. It's a load that approximates the black powder load (you guys loading Unique and 45 Colt probably have already guessed and you're probably right). I had 1gr lighter loads for pistol.

 

I did notice my rifle was ringing the targets harder and louder than most of the other rifles. :-)

 

Trying some lighter loads.

 

Outside of Wild Bunch, I didn't see anything in the shooter's handbook about power factor. Did I miss something?

 

Oh, after my first match, I'm hooked.

 

 

 

Also, re: blackpowder smoke, a topic I can talk about. I've been competing with muzzleloaders at NMLRA shoots for close to 30 years and shot BPCR for about 10 years before I got too busy with life to do both.

 

One thing to keep in mind about blackpowder is the amount of smoke from any given round will be different on different days. On a humid damp day there will be more visible smoke than on a dry hot day.

 

Guitar Slinger

[Matthew Duncan]

Pards Have any of you been to a shoot where the officials have challenged a shooter's ammo MV - and more specifically, challenged it to the point where they have chrono'd a shooter's ammo which resulted in a DQ? RR

Yes a challenge, no to chrono.

 

My 250 grain 45 loads are almost a full grain below Titegroup maximum recommendations. After a match the MD and a TG ask for 5 of my rounds and a pistol. They shot my 5 rounds had a brief discussion, said OK and handed my pistol back.

 

Evidently my loads botherd a high competitive Cowpoke that wasn't able to grasp why anyone would shoot such loads. Easy. 45s are suppose to go BOOM !

 

That was the end of that.

[John Henry Quick]

OK, newbie here. My first match last month, I took some good natured ribbing about my "hot" loads. I know we're not supposed to recommend specific loads here. I will say it was a "standard" load of Unique under a 250gr RNFP 45 Colt. It's a load that approximates the black powder load (you guys loading Unique and 45 Colt probably have already guessed and you're probably right). I had 1gr lighter loads for pistol.

 

I did notice my rifle was ringing the targets harder and louder than most of the other rifles. :-)

 

Trying some lighter loads.

 

Outside of Wild Bunch, I didn't see anything in the shooter's handbook about power factor. Did I miss something?

 

Oh, after my first match, I'm hooked.

 

Jeff

 

Welcome aboard, Jeff! While I would steer you towards the Dark Side, almost any smokeless load that's one third to halfway between starting and max will produce a load that's well within the velocities list in the shooter's handbook (look again - they're in there) and in no danger of a squib. Don't fall into the trap of shooting mouse farts - those that do are a danger to everyone around them.

 

EDIT: Assuming we're not talking about Magnum calibers!

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

 

Thanks Allie, but that's still not very clear. It sounds to me like the Range Master is comparing amounts of smoke rather than pulling bullets and measuring powder - a more subjective standard I cannot imagine, particularly on a windy day.

Yes. It is completly subjective. You shoot a known standard round, then the competitor's round, and then have to decide if the competitor's round meets the standard or not.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Guitar slinger, SHB pg12

 

The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories in all SASS matches State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship Competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps. The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400 fps. Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and velocity requirements.

 

Power factors are simply calculated by multiplying the bullet weight times the velocity and then the resulting number is divided by 1000. Some examples are as follows:

100 gr bullet traveling at 600 fps has a power factor of 60: (100x600)/1000=60.00

77 gr bullet traveling at 800 fps has a power factor of 61.6 (77x800)/1000=61.60

200 gr bullet traveling at 400 fps has a power factor of 80 (200x400)/1000=80.00

[John Henry Quick]

Yes. It is completly subjective. You shoot a known standard round, then the competitor's round, and then have to decide if the competitor's round meets the standard or not.

 

I guess it's a good thing that no one will ever accuse me of shooting mouse farts!

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

And remember, the smoke test is not that you are shooting 15 grains of black powder.

 

The smoke test is to determine that shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges produce smoke in an amount at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of ffg blackpowder.

[guitar_slinger]

Guitar slinger, SHB pg12

 

The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories in all SASS matches State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship Competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps. The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400 fps. Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and velocity requirements.

 

Power factors are simply calculated by multiplying the bullet weight times the velocity and then the resulting number is divided by 1000. Some examples are as follows:

100 gr bullet traveling at 600 fps has a power factor of 60: (100x600)/1000=60.00

77 gr bullet traveling at 800 fps has a power factor of 61.6 (77x800)/1000=61.60

200 gr bullet traveling at 400 fps has a power factor of 80 (200x400)/1000=80.00

Branchwater and Johnny,

Just went back to check and found it.

 

Power factor of 60 is light. I can see the risk of going below that since you'd be getting dangerously close to squib loads for sure.

 

Thanks for the info guys (and gals). Looking forward to the next match.

 

I may go to the "dark side" one of these days. I've shot thousands upon thousands of rounds of black powder cartridge (Sharps and Trapdoors in 45-70 and a custom CPA Stevens 44 1/2 swtich barrel in 45-70 with a .22lr barrel on the side) and many thousands more rounds out of various flintlock rifles.

 

One day, want to give the 58 Remington and 51 Navy a run at the Cowboy matches.

 

Yes, I'm hooked.

 

Guitar Slinger.

[John Henry Quick]

And remember, the smoke test is not that you are shooting 15 grains of black powder.

 

The smoke test is to determine that shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges produce smoke in an amount at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of ffg blackpowder.

 

I guess I'm destined to never understand that one because judging the density of a cloud of smoke with a Mark 1, calibrated eyeball is just too much guesswork for me. However, as I said, I'm not anywhere near there because I shoot double that in my shotgun and nearly so in my .45's. I will soon be loading .44 WCF and I have no intention of downloading them either.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Just remember, no one will like it if you pock the targets with your heavy loads.

 

I've seen people on their knees and/or bloodied when hit by splatter from pock marked targets.

[John Henry Quick]

Branchwater and Johnny,

Just went back to check and found it.

 

Power factor of 60 is light. I can see the risk of going below that since you'd be getting dangerously close to squib loads for sure.

 

Thanks for the info guys (and gals). Looking forward to the next match.

 

I may go to the "dark side" one of these days. I've shot thousands upon thousands of rounds of black powder cartridge (Sharps and Trapdoors in 45-70 and a custom CPA Stevens 44 1/2 swtich barrel in 45-70 with a .22lr barrel on the side) and many thousands more rounds out of various flintlock rifles.

 

One day, want to give the 58 Remington and 51 Navy a run at the Cowboy matches.

 

Yes, I'm hooked.

 

Guitar Slinger.

 

Trust me Guitar, it's a hoot! I'm new to BP cartridges - just started it this year - but I've been shooting muzzleloaders since 1970 and this has made an old hobby new again! I also just got a pair of 58's and I plan top shoot them in the July match in Richmond. FCGF with C&B! I'll never be truly competitive in Forty-Niner with smokeless, so I get my kicks by making things as hard on myself as possible - what could be harder than Gunfighter with Cap-n-Ball, and black powder rifle and shotgun?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

I guess I'm destined to never understand that one because judging the density of a cloud of smoke with a Mark 1, calibrated eyeball is just too much guesswork for me. However, as I said, I'm not anywhere near there because I shoot double that in my shotgun and nearly so in my .45's. I will soon be loading .44 WCF and I have no intention of downloading them either.

If your loads are too powerful you may be asked to download them or not come back.

[John Henry Quick]

Just remember, no one will like it if you pock the targets with your heavy loads.

 

I've seen people on their knees and/or bloodied when hit by splatter from pock marked targets.

 

 

True dat. I get peppered at every match, but so far they've never done more than sting. It is, however, the reason I switched to wrap-around eye protection. I've never seen the two clubs I shoot with break out the chrono, but something will definitely be said to people who dent the steel.

[John Henry Quick]

If your loads are too powerful you may be asked to download them or not come back.

 

I don't load them hot - middlin' would be a better description and no where near mouse farts. I would be more specific, but I don't want to break the rules. When I first switched to BP cartridges, I loaded full, but not highly compressed. A couple of people complained that I was ringing their ears, so I backed it down by about 1/3 and added grits as a filler - no one complains, but I'm still WELL above the minimum.

[Matthew Duncan]

Just remember, no one will like it if you pock the targets with your heavy loads.

 

I've seen people on their knees and/or bloodied when hit by splatter from pock marked targets.

True.

 

What about Substandard metal targets?

[guitar_slinger]

Since we're not supposed to talk load make up, I won't say what is going in my cases.

 

Over a Chronograph, in a pistol, the loads I was shooting are about 830fps (250gr bullet 45 Colt). I didn't put the rifle over the chrono but same loads out of a 18" barrel (the rifle I was shooting last match) would probably be about 875fps plus or minus a bit.

 

Fairly mild loads (I've shot much stouter out of blackhawks).

 

I haven't shot the new loads over chrono but I'm guessing in the 600-650 fps range which is still 150 power factor.

 

Thoughts?

 

Guitar Slinger

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Pards… Have any of you been to a shoot where the officials have challenged a shooter's ammo MV - and more specifically, challenged it to the point where they have chrono'd a shooter's ammo which resulted in a DQ? …RR

It's never come up in Chorro Valley's history.

 

Fillmore

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

True. Substandard metal targets?

Yes...of course...cuz every club can afford to purchase 6-12 stages of nuthin but high quality AR steel for their targets.

 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Since the topic has already drifted, I'll pile on. The smoke standard is just as has been said. The test load is 15gr of BP under a 145 gr spg lubed bullet 38 bullet. If the load is not available, no challenge can be issued. It is required that the test load be available at State and higher shoots. Those of use that were shooting when this was developed can attest to the fact that it does in fact work. The mere fact that there is a standard stopped the race to the bottom that was occurring, with what seemed at the time perhaps 3 or 4 grains of BP barely making it to the target. Nobody in their right mind is going to show up at a major match with substandard ammo. The risk of penalty is too great to waste your time with that.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Since we're not supposed to talk load make up, I won't say what is going in my cases.

 

Over a Chronograph, in a pistol, the loads I was shooting are about 830fps (250gr bullet 45 Colt). I didn't put the rifle over the chrono but same loads out of a 18" barrel (the rifle I was shooting last match) would probably be about 875fps plus or minus a bit.

 

Fairly mild loads (I've shot much stouter out of blackhawks).

 

I haven't shot the new loads over chrono but I'm guessing in the 600-650 fps range which is still 150 power factor.

 

Thoughts?

 

Guitar Slinger

150 power factor is plenty of bang and recoil, without putting undue strain on the targets and the TO's hearing. 150 PF is what we use as a minimum for our annual big iron challenge. I also predict you'll switch to 200 grain bullets at some point if you continue playing this game. It's a 20% savings in lead which adds up.

[guitar_slinger]

150 power factor is plenty of bang and recoil, without putting undue strain on the targets and the TO's hearing. 150 PF is what we use as a minimum for our annual big iron challenge. I also predict you'll switch to 200 grain bullets at some point if you continue playing this game. It's a 20% savings in lead which adds up.

Straight,

Thanks.

I have about 500 of the 250gr bullets and will be moving to 200 when that is done.

 

I'll put some of the loads over the chronograph just to be sure I'm somewhere around 100-150 power factor. The good news is with a 250gr bullet it would be harder to stay under 60 than above it. :-)

 

Thanks again for all the help. Much appreciated.

 

Guitar Slinger

[Jack Christian SASS #11993]

Since we're not supposed to talk load make up, I won't say what is going in my cases.

 

Over a Chronograph, in a pistol, the loads I was shooting are about 830fps (250gr bullet 45 Colt). I didn't put the rifle over the chrono but same loads out of a 18" barrel (the rifle I was shooting last match) would probably be about 875fps plus or minus a bit.

 

Fairly mild loads (I've shot much stouter out of blackhawks).

 

I haven't shot the new loads over chrono but I'm guessing in the 600-650 fps range which is still 150 power factor.

 

Thoughts?

 

Guitar Slinger

 

Based on my experience with a similar load, your velocity will likely be at minimum, 200 f.p.s. higher in your rifle.

 

Jack

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

As a match director and posse leader ( TO/RO), I noticed a new shooter last year that was shooting really hot shotgun ammo, he was really "rocking" those targets. I asked to see what he was shooting; factory Win AA super handicap 1 1/8 oz loads which are doing about 1300 fps....wow. I explained that these loads were too hot, they would destroy our targets and the "splatter" coming back was really bad for everyone around. He thought because the box said handicap, that they were light loads..........I explained the difference to him and he shoots much lighter loads now.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

As a match director and posse leader ( TO/RO), I noticed a new shooter last year that was shooting really hot shotgun ammo, he was really "rocking" those targets. I asked to see what he was shooting; factory Win AA super handicap 1 1/8 oz loads which are doing about 1300 fps....wow. I explained that these loads were too hot, they would destroy our targets and the "splatter" coming back was really bad for everyone around. He thought because the box said handicap, that they were light loads..........I explained the difference to him and he shoots much lighter loads now.

 

 

Just wondering what the limit is at your range? Most of the Promo shells are 1250-1350 fps, do you not allow them either?

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

Goody, there is no specific limit at our range. A part of the story that I left out was that he was also shooting a 30" barrel SxS with full chokes; he rocked those targets. If he was shooting a 20" open or IC choke, I probably wouldn't have even noticed. So, to answer your question, it's just a subjective call by me depending on the ammo, barrel length and choke combination.

That's why I told him that if continues to shoot that gun, he had to find lighter loads.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

OK, that makes sense.