Notso Slim, SASS #67301 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Ok, a 40 cal is a 10mm cut down, a 357 Sig is a necked down 40 cal? Right? What are the pro's and con's of the 40 cal vs. the 357 Sig? Why is one "better" than the other? Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tonic Kid, SASS #70340 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Call me Little Brother and I can fill you in on the difference. Tonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 a 357 Sig is a necked down 40 cal? Right? Conceptually, yes, but if you take actual .40S&W brass and neck it down, the resulting case would be just a bit too short for .357SIG What are the pro's and con's of the 40 cal vs. the 357 Sig? Why is one "better" than the other? The .357SIG is another attempt to replicate .357 magnum performance in an autopistol. I cannot speak intelligently to the pros or cons of either cartridge, sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Alot of State and local law enforcement personnel use the 40 and love it. The Secret Service (unless they've recently changed) carries Sig P229 pistols in .357 Sig caliber. Of course, they also carry a few other little nice toys in those brief cases as well. Mileage varies on this one. I've handled both in different pistols and in some pistols, I didn't like either cartridge. But in other pistols, I liked both cartridges. With either choice, getting the right pistol for you will probably make you a happy camper. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Bob Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 From a reloaders standpoint, 40 straight wall case vs. 357 Sig necked case. It would seem you would have to lube the 357 cases, where as the 40 you wouldn't. I've shoot the 357 Sig in a Baretta and was not that impressed. Could be my way of thinking, but the bigger hole the better!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 IMHO, .357SIG was a solution looking for a problem that did not exist. It is harder to find, more expensive, and harder to reload than .40. The .40 is more versitile since you can choose lighter bullets (135-155gr) at fast velocities or larger bullets (180-200gr) at slower velocities. I just do not see enough of an advantage to the .357SIG that justifies the drawbacks. My guess is that .357SIG will pretty much die as a mainstream cartriage, but it will still have a small cult following of supporters (like the 10mm). HK has announced that it will no longer produce any pistols in .357SIG. I wouldn't doubt that other manufacurers will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Buckshot Frank beat me to my comments. The 357 Sig is an answer to an unasked question. As soon as the Secret Service moves on to some other latest and greatest cartridge, it will die quietly. The 40 S&W is a decent mid-range straight walled auto case that nicely fills that gap between the 9mm and 45 ACP. It is versatile, low-cost for factory ammo, and easy to reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 S&W also dropped the .357 SIG for the civilian market last year. Glock still chambers it. I went to a S&W M&P armorers course last year and one of the perks upon completion of the course was being able to buy a new M&P direct from S&W for $199. I wanted a .357 SIG, because I've never had one, but had to go with the .40, then buy a .357 SIG barrel from Midway, so in the end, I got the .357 SIG I originally wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 As soon as the Secret Service moves on to some other latest and greatest cartridge, it will die quietly. I thought that the Secret Sevice has already moved to the 5.7mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Smokepole #29248L Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 And if we had not been force fed the 147 grain subsonic round by the FEEBS (FBI) the .40 S&W would not exist. The 9MM in Plus P or Plus P Plus is the same exact pressure and velocity that European countries load their 9MM's to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 .40 = Effective round. Same round count as the .357 Sig for a given magazine. Caliber is one of the most popular in the United States so ammo is relatively cheap and both ammo and components are always in production and available everywhere. Numerous makers make low price range ammo. .40 is chambered in a very wide variety of easily available guns. Given its market saturation and the fact that it is the most popular police caliber, it is likely to be in production for decades to come. .357 Sig = Effective round. Same round count as the .40 for a given magazine. Not a very common round, so ammo is relatively expensive and both ammo and components are relatively hard to find (like many low production rounds, the brass is probably made in batch runs rather than constant production). I have never seen low price range ammo for .357 Sig (though it may exist somewhere). .357 Sig is chambered in a relatively small number of guns, so you may not be able to get it in the gun you want. Its likely that the .357 Sig will go the way of the .41 mag and fade out of production due to low consumer interest and sales. So, if you just have to have the .357 Sig, go forth and enjoy (I shoot a 45-75 and have all the tools to make the brass from .348 win, so who am I to say something is impractical), its a good round. But, the .40 has a lot going for it in terms of practicality, price and availability. Both rounds are very effective as defensive rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 357Sig and 45GAP are both answers in search of a question. Former student is working for a PD that issues a Glock in 357Sig as duty weapon and after shooting it I think my 38Super handloads will do everything it will. We shot a match at the sig academy early last year and talking with the guys in the proshop I busted them for not making a 226 type pistol in 38Super. They used to import the euro model with the butt mounted mag release but dont anymore. As I went on about a hi-cap 226 style gun in the right caliber I didnt remember about the 357Sig, whoops. While the 40SW may be the most popular LEO cartridge going and is out there in just about every possible platform its still the weak sister to the best .40 cartridge for pistols, the 10mm. I'd do like J Bar and get the 40SW to start with then buy at 357Sig bbl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The 10mm was also a round in search of a question. It was too hot for all the early guns it was chambered in (it beat the Colt Delta Elites to death) and was far too powerful to be a practical defensive gun, let alone a police issue gun. It was available in only a small number of guns, many people could not shoot it well due to excessive recoil, it suffered from over penetration and it was not as good a hunting caliber as the big revolver calibers. Like many other interesting calibers, it just didn't fill a clearly identifiable need. I have thought about buying a 10mm Glock for a carry gun here in Alaska, because of the high capacity and the chance of having to shoot a moose or bear. But, it would be a compromise for both defense and big game (for example it does not meet the federal handgun specifications and I could not carry it when working for the government, I would have to carry a 44 mag or bigger). I would not think of carrying a 10mm without the unique conditions in Alaska and in fact I have stayed with a big Smith revolver. The truth of the matter is, that for defense, the good is often the master of the great. Issues of practicality, timing and market placement are often more important factors in what cartridges are successful than pure ballistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The 357 Sig has a few things going for it. As a bottleneck cartridge, feeding is outstanding. The old small bullet going into a big chamber principle. Also it is a hot rod stepping out with high velocities, the old small and fast versus big and slow argument. The 40 short and weak has neither of these attributes being both small and slow as well as short and weak. The 357 trumps the 9mm as it uses the same bullets at much higher velocities. So it is better than a 9 or a 40 but not as good as a 45. A 9mm may or may not expand but a 45 will never shrink. 45 hardball is an effective round and available everywhere world wide. Texas DPS issues the 357 Sig in Sig Sauer 226s and they are happy with it. The 357 Sig, unlike the 45 GAP which died abornin', will be around forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 A 9mm may or may not expand but a 45 will never shrink. 45 hardball is an effective round and available everywhere world wide. Worthy of a repeat ! ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The correct answer to the original question (40 cal vs. 357 Sig What is the difference?) is .043 Someone had to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The correct answer to the original question (40 cal vs. 357 Sig What is the difference?) is .043 Someone had to say it. The .357 SIG is actually a 9mm, using .355 bullets. So, more like .045 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 IMHO, .357SIG was a solution looking for a problem that did not exist. It is harder to find, more expensive, and harder to reload than .40. The .40 is more versitile since you can choose lighter bullets (135-155gr) at fast velocities or larger bullets (180-200gr) at slower velocities. I just do not see enough of an advantage to the .357SIG that justifies the drawbacks. My guess is that .357SIG will pretty much die as a mainstream cartriage, but it will still have a small cult following of supporters (like the 10mm). HK has announced that it will no longer produce any pistols in .357SIG. I wouldn't doubt that other manufacurers will follow. I agree another ploy to sell more ammo. How about the .38 Super, or the .45 GAP or the infamous .327 Magnum? I'll stick with my .45 thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The 10mm was also a round in search of a question. It was too hot for all the early guns it was chambered in (it beat the Colt Delta Elites to death) and was far too powerful to be a practical defensive gun, let alone a police issue gun. It was available in only a small number of guns, many people could not shoot it well due to excessive recoil, it suffered from over penetration and it was not as good a hunting caliber as the big revolver calibers. Like many other interesting calibers, it just didn't fill a clearly identifiable need. Actually, the 10mm was designed at the request of the FBI when they were outgunned with their 9mm's in the Miami(?) shootout. Unfortunately, the 10mm was too powerful for agents to shoot well so S&W lessened the powder charge. When they settled on a weaker load that the FBI liked, they realized that they didn't need the case capacity and were able to shrink it down to fit into frames designed for 9mm. The .40 was born; and that is the rest of the story. The 10mm is still popular with hunters as it is the most powerful semi-auto pistol caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockridge,SASS #8763 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Actually, the 10mm was designed at the request of the FBI when they were outgunned with their 9mm's in the Miami(?) shootout. Unfortunately, the 10mm was too powerful for agents to shoot well so S&W lessened the powder charge. When they settled on a weaker load that the FBI liked, they realized that they didn't need the case capacity and were able to shrink it down to fit into frames designed for 9mm. The .40 was born; and that is the rest of the story. The 10mm is still popular with hunters as it is the most powerful semi-auto pistol caliber. I have a Dan Wesson 1911 Razorback in 10mm that I love. It's made even better by the fact that I ordered it with a 40 S&W barrel fitted to it. Great gun - best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 In the 357 Sig bottleneck the idea is to launch a smaller bullet at higher velocities than can be done with a straight wall like the 40 S&W. You do get somewhat reduced recoil, but the trade-off is more muzzle blast and higher noise levels. And the pressures are higher too, so the guns have to take a beating. The only advantage would be in using specialty ammunition like in the Russian 5.45 X 18 with its steel core. A relatively puny caliber, it'll still cut through 11 layers of kevlar. The 5.7 FN is another of those puny bottleneck rounds that have a high muzzle velocity too. If you want real power, the 50 Action Express would be tough to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I have one of the S&W 1006 that was made for the FBI.I carry it sometime in the winter.I like the double action on it but it is a big semi.Shoots nice but to much recoil for fast shooting.Most of the time I carry a colt 45 defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Actually, the 10mm was designed at the request of the FBI when they were outgunned with their 9mm's in the Miami(?) shootout. Unfortunately, the 10mm was too powerful for agents to shoot well so S&W lessened the powder charge. When they settled on a weaker load that the FBI liked, they realized that they didn't need the case capacity and were able to shrink it down to fit into frames designed for 9mm. The .40 was born; and that is the rest of the story. The 10mm is still popular with hunters as it is the most powerful semi-auto pistol caliber. Your not quite correct here. The 10mm was in production in the Bren 10 starting in 1983. The FBI shootout didn't happen until April 1986. So, the 10mm was clearly not developed for the FBI as a result of the Florida Shootout. The 10mm was briefly adopted by the FBI after 1986, but the recoil was excessive, which set off the cartridge development program that led to the 40 S&w. While 10mm is a potent round, it is not the most powerful round commercially available in a semi auto. .44mag, 44 Automag and .50 AE are more powerful and have been or are currently chambered in semiautos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Howdy, Pards, Point of information: The .40 S&W with the 180 gr bullet is ballistically identical to the .38-40 (actually a .40 cal), which had a good rep with law enforcement officers back in the day! If you were so inclined, you could have a .38-40 revolver fitted with a second cylinder chambered in .40 S&W. Probably have to rechamber a .32 cylinder. (Not sure why you'd want one, but in case...) Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere. God Bless America! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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