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Johnny Swan, SASS #50322

short stroke speed

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It's funny when short stroked rifles hit the game no one complained about them when it was still taking over three seconds for a good shooter to make a rifle run. So what changed?

 

I don't know where you were when the Covenant was being debated, but there were plenty of people complaining about short-stroke kits, their presence in the game, and where it would all end.

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Do that and you could hold EOT in a porta potty. There's tht other "Cows" outfit that is making such HUGE in-roads they might need a handicapped sized porta potty for their world championships. :)

 

And yet when SASS started, there weren't any of these things, and yet it was the fastest growing shooting sport in the United States for a long time -- before there was any need for short strokes or a Covenant to limit their use. Someone apparently liked using guns from the Old West as opposed to those that are modified to suit the 21st Century. Sometimes I wonder where they all went.

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It's funny when short stroked rifles hit the game no one complained about them when it was still taking over three seconds for a good shooter to make a rifle run. So what changed?

 

I don't know where you were when the Covenant was being debated, but there were plenty of people complaining about short-stroke kits, their presence in the game, and where it would all end.

 

I hate to tell you this, but short stroke rifles were around for years before that nonsense they call a covenant. I never heard one complaint at a shoot. Shooting is the part of the sport I care about. Not the wire.

 

Please tell me why its always the rifle everyone is worried about.

 

The guns we use have changed very little compared to rest of the sport. I'm talking change over the last 10-12 years.

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And yet when SASS started, there weren't any of these things, and yet it was the fastest growing shooting sport in the United States for a long time -- before there was any need for short strokes or a Covenant to limit their use. Someone apparently liked using guns from the Old West as opposed to those that are modified to suit the 21st Century. Sometimes I wonder where they all went.

 

 

ON, in 8 short years I have been a SASS member, FORTY THOUSAND badges have been issued, compared to 53000 in the couple of decades before. I KNOW the Codymatic existed when I started...... I guess the FASTEST GROWTH SASS has seen was during the Short stroke era. Must be they were kept secret from the "reinacting" folks who got hornswoggled into somethin they didn't expect? NOPE! Never happened. I remember tricked out 73s being passed around among the "A" shooters when I started. I couldn't AFFORD one at the moment, so I ignored em. But a couple years later, the very year the covenent was being debated, Spur was doing the SHORTEST short stroke Marlin he'd ever done (shorter than any 73 of the time) FOR ME. I still have it....

 

If we're gonna argue SASS history, lets be accurate.

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ON, in 8 short years I have been a SASS member, FORTY THOUSAND badges have been issued, compared to 53000 in the couple of decades before. I KNOW the Codymatic existed when I started...... I guess the FASTEST GROWTH SASS has seen was during the Short stroke era. Must be they were kept secret from the "reinacting" folks who got hornswoggled into somethin they didn't expect? NOPE! Never happened. I remember tricked out 73s being passed around among the "A" shooters when I started. I couldn't AFFORD one at the moment, so I ignored em. But a couple years later, the very year the covenent was being debated, Spur was doing the SHORTEST short stroke Marlin he'd ever done (shorter than any 73 of the time) FOR ME. I still have it....

 

If we're gonna argue SASS history, lets be accurate.

 

And in the 20 years I've been involved in SASS (15 or sixteen as member -- I think I joined in 1995 or 1996) something like 80,000 members have joined. If we're done measuring apendages here, when did the growth spurt start? The fastest growth didn't have anything to do with short-stroke kits -- the national organization started to make more money and do more advertising.

 

I know there were zero short-strokes when I started in 1991, and I didn't see one before 2003. I don't know where you were shooting, but there was plenty of discussion of confining them to modern class, etc., around the Missouri/Kansas border when they became common. But AJ, you've only been the the sport, according to you, for 8 years, and that means you missed out on those discussions. There were long, lound and vituperous debates about the topic for a good 5 years before the "covenant." BTW, that was when I was a match director and truly active in the sport, before my re-emergence as a shooter this year.

 

At this point, I'm no longer advocating (as I once did) that they not be allowed in the sport at all, or even that they be confined to a specific class. I'd like non-short-stroked guns to have their own class, but apparently that's too much to hope for, as is the idea that the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting be one that encompasses firearms actually used by the actual cowboys upon whom the name of the sport is based.

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And yet when SASS started, there weren't any of these things, and yet it was the fastest growing shooting sport in the United States for a long time -- before there was any need for short strokes or a Covenant to limit their use. Someone apparently liked using guns from the Old West as opposed to those that are modified to suit the 21st Century. Sometimes I wonder where they all went.

 

 

Oddnews: you seem to be confusing some issue that is not an issue. That being the fact that 'Someone' can still use guns from the Old West. Nobody makes anyone use modified firearms in our sport/game.

So where is the beef?

 

You seem to be stating an issue concerning the speed of growth in SASS in relation to short strokes. How are these linked together? Or how has one deminished/adversely effected the other?

 

Then, you refer to somebody's preferred usage of Old West guns being opposed to modified guns. Has 'Someones' love of old west guns deminished because others use modified guns?

Has 'Someone' been denied to shoot because they use unmodified guns?

 

If your trying to prove some point concerning short stroked rifles, then YOU should do a test similar to Doc's suggested idea. Apparently one of my earlier post in this thread didn't satisfy anyone's curiousity because according to atleast one actual shooting run, their was only a difference of 1/4 of ONE SECOND (over a 10 shot run)difference between two rifles whose lever distances are different (one factory, one modified). And who is to say that more shooting results could vary even in favor of the unmodified rifle, depending upon the shooter getting use to a certain 'feel'.

 

Go shoot.....use your own guns (modified or not), have fun!

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder

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Call me old fashioned but,using a stroke kit is just a crutch. It's all part of an arms race to get an edge with technology instead of practice. We shoot 19th century arms because they're cool. Why make 21st century mods ? Just shoot 'em like they were made! Lots & lots!

 

Hate to break it to ya but a short stroked rifle is no replacement for practice and skill. It may do a little to help but the shooter who practices and works towards getting better will outdo any short stroke any day. If that short stroked rifle is a crutch it sure aint much of one. I am living proof of that myself.

 

As far as I am concerned you shoot whatever the heck you want and as long as it is legal let me shoot whatever the heck I want. I guarantee whatever you are shooting aint gonna ruin my day and if you let whatever I am shooting ruin your day well........then I just feel bad for you. (but not too bad)

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And in the 20 years I've been involved in SASS (15 or sixteen as member -- I think I joined in 1995 or 1996) something like 80,000 members have joined. If we're done measuring apendages here, when did the growth spurt start? The fastest growth didn't have anything to do with short-stroke kits -- the national organization started to make more money and do more advertising.

 

I know there were zero short-strokes when I started in 1991, and I didn't see one before 2003. I don't know where you were shooting, but there was plenty of discussion of confining them to modern class, etc., around the Missouri/Kansas border when they became common. But AJ, you've only been the the sport, according to you, for 8 years, and that means you missed out on those discussions. There were long, lound and vituperous debates about the topic for a good 5 years before the "covenant." BTW, that was when I was a match director and truly active in the sport, before my re-emergence as a shooter this year.

 

At this point, I'm no longer advocating (as I once did) that they not be allowed in the sport at all, or even that they be confined to a specific class. I'd like non-short-stroked guns to have their own class, but apparently that's too much to hope for, as is the idea that the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting be one that encompasses firearms actually used by the actual cowboys upon whom the name of the sport is based.

The fact remains, the largest number of badges issued in the shortest amount of time COINCIDED WITH a time frame when the short stroked 73 already existed. Apparantly the SS73 didn't hurt sales of memberships. Probably had little to do with em at all, other than being a small example of the "big tent" philosophy that helped SASS grow in ways other "western" shooting sports have not....

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Guest Texas Jack Black

I would not be so concerned with short stroked and tricked out guns We need to focus on where all the NEW members are. and why the growth has come to a snails pace Remember the numbers on these badges are just the feel good number not the number of actual breathing members or active shooters.

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Hey TJB.

 

your up mighty early this mornin, especially Texas time.

 

Heck, its even early up here in TN. I gotta go get a sick truck fixed today.

 

just thought I'd say 'mornin' to ya.

 

 

..........Widder

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Guest Texas Jack Black

morning Widder I was up early had to put the gear away

 

T J B

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And in the 20 years I've been involved in SASS (15 or sixteen as member -- I think I joined in 1995 or 1996) something like 80,000 members have joined. If we're done measuring apendages here, when did the growth spurt start? The fastest growth didn't have anything to do with short-stroke kits -- the national organization started to make more money and do more advertising.

 

I know there were zero short-strokes when I started in 1991, and I didn't see one before 2003. I don't know where you were shooting, but there was plenty of discussion of confining them to modern class, etc., around the Missouri/Kansas border when they became common. But AJ, you've only been the the sport, according to you, for 8 years, and that means you missed out on those discussions. There were long, lound and vituperous debates about the topic for a good 5 years before the "covenant." BTW, that was when I was a match director and truly active in the sport, before my re-emergence as a shooter this year.

 

At this point, I'm no longer advocating (as I once did) that they not be allowed in the sport at all, or even that they be confined to a specific class. I'd like non-short-stroked guns to have their own class, but apparently that's too much to hope for, as is the idea that the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting be one that encompasses firearms actually used by the actual cowboys upon whom the name of the sport is based.

 

They were around when I started over 10 years ago......never heard 1 heated debate in this area over them. Mostly what I heard was "who can do that?".......glad you're shooting again.....now you really can work on making your dream of a "stock class" come to fruition. Let me know how it works for you....I do know of 1 shooter that quit SASS because he didn't like the "equipment race"......I'm sure there have been others. Maybe you can figure out how to get them to come back.......

 

Stan

 

P.S. A person can be competitive with MINIMAL amount of gun work being done.....Most of the money spent is for "parking lot bragging rights"...."feel how smooth my gun is"....."mines better than yours"......so on and so forth.

 

The amount of money spent on gun work to be a so called champion is INSIGNIFICANT in comparison to the money spent on PRACTICE AMMO!

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Oddnews: you seem to be confusing some issue that is not an issue. That being the fact that 'Someone' can still use guns from the Old West. Nobody makes anyone use modified firearms in our sport/game.

So where is the beef?

 

You seem to be stating an issue concerning the speed of growth in SASS in relation to short strokes. How are these linked together? Or how has one deminished/adversely effected the other?

 

Then, you refer to somebody's preferred usage of Old West guns being opposed to modified guns. Has 'Someones' love of old west guns deminished because others use modified guns?

Has 'Someone' been denied to shoot because they use unmodified guns?

 

If your trying to prove some point concerning short stroked rifles, then YOU should do a test similar to Doc's suggested idea. Apparently one of my earlier post in this thread didn't satisfy anyone's curiousity because according to atleast one actual shooting run, their was only a difference of 1/4 of ONE SECOND (over a 10 shot run)difference between two rifles whose lever distances are different (one factory, one modified). And who is to say that more shooting results could vary even in favor of the unmodified rifle, depending upon the shooter getting use to a certain 'feel'.

 

Go shoot.....use your own guns (modified or not), have fun!

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder

 

Widder -- if you read what I wrote, I specifically don't equate the growth of the sport with the modifications (was responding to someone else on that topic). I think it was AJ who said the sport had grown more rapidly after the introduction of short strokes, and I was saying that it was growing pretty rapidly before they were in the sport -- someone must have enjoyed the sport then, too. (I was making a comparison, in other words).

 

For me to do the test, I'd have to buy a short-stroke kit for a rifle. I won't be doing that.

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I'd have to agree with AJ and Oddnews. The sport was groing rapidly before short stroke rifles and after them. So that being said and assuming they are both right on with their numbers, I'd say that 99% of the members could care less about short stroke rifles.

 

We can't run this sport like washington where the politicians will let 2% of the population control legislation over the other 98%.

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morning Widder I was up early had to put the gear away

 

T J B

 

And you don't live in Texas...

 

:wacko:

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And You Sir are a Recent ,,,, Replant into that state ,,,,,, I have probley spent more days in the great state of Texas over the past 40 years than you living there ..... Just saying ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Do that and you could hold EOT in a porta potty. There's tht other "Cows" outfit that is making such HUGE in-roads they might need a handicapped sized porta potty for their world championships. :)

 

Someone NEW to the sport,,,, say less than a dozen years ,,,,, could assume that "Short-strokes" caused the the attendance at A BIG shoot to drop by 75% !!!! And not understand that It was a move ,,,, of venue location ....

 

Growth of menbership even if judged by increases in badge #s has slowed considerabley in the last year ....

 

WE HAVE CLASSES FOR THOSE THAT DRESS DIFFERENT,,,, WHY IS IT THEN TO MUCH TO ASK THAT A CLASS BE MADE THAT ALLOWS THOSE THAT CHOOSE NOT TO ENTER THE EQUIPMENT RACE AND PREHAPS WOULD CHOOSE TO USE LOADS THAT COME CLOSER TO THE LOADS OF YORE , A PLACE INSIDE THE "BIG TENT"...

IN MY MIND THERE IS FAR MORE JUSTIFICATION FOR A CLASS OF THESE FOLK THAN HAVING A FOR THOSE THAT DRESS "fUNNY" ...

 

Some of us had hoped that CC would have been that chance, but now that ain't so !!! We now have .45s that shoot 130 gr. bullets with less recoil than a standard .38 spl. and are legal in CC ....

 

 

But we are told "It's only a Game" ,,,,,,,, Well what was wrong with the old Game ???? Some liked it better before,, but most of them are out there shooting and wondering why folks is changing Their Game that they loved ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Boy this thread is morphing fast. It started out with a technical question, moved to a discussion of how to test the difference, and has become something totally different.

 

I think that if it really has slowed, I know what might have happened to membership growth, or at least part of what might have happened, but that is a different topic for a different thread. FYI in my opinion the problem isn't with SASS, I think it has something to do with the larger economy and the decline of the American middle class. Prices keep going up, but incomes are flat or declining. Middle class people have less and less money for recreational activities like attending distant SASS events. That is not really a good topic for the wire.

 

By the way Oddnews, I hope to see you at Higginsville this Sunday. Snicklfritz and his gang are doing a great job with the Rocky Branch Rangers. Monthly attendance seems to be increasing. The Powder Creek Cowboys also seem to be doing well. We had over 60 shooting last weekend, including several new shooters. That is about all I know about the doings on the Missouri/Kansas border, but I will learn more next month when I shoot at Border Wars down in Parker, Kansas.

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While everyone it seems agrees that it is faster to shoot a SS rifle ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, some won't addmit that it is a desided advaatage to do so ...

 

I have seen Big Matches where the outcome between 1st. and second place overall was .43 of a second in TT for the match,,,,, The second place shooter was not using a SS gun and to my mind is and was the better shooter on that day ,,, but he was also the loser !!! And I think it was TIME SAVED with the SS rifle that enabled the Top shooter to win ....

 

AND NOT A LACK OF PRATICE !!!!!!!!!!!! OR DEDICATION !!!

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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After reading 3 pages, I guess I'll weigh in. IMHO, when I started, I couldn't "outrun" my 92. Soon I could outrun it. Got a Codymatic. I can not outrun it. This rifle is "faster than me". I can no longer blame the rifle for slowing me down. My C&I very short stroke is shorter than my Codymatic, but takes more effort to run. Cody = slick and smooth. C&I = flipping a light switch. I prefer the Codymatic's smoothness, but I'd have to say each is equal in time. Maybe a very slight advantage because I pull off target less.

YMMV

Cash

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While everyone it seems agrees that it is faster to shoot a SS rifle ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, some won't addmit that it is a desided advaatage to do so ...

 

I have seen Big Matches where the outcome between 1st. and second place overall was .43 of a second in TT for the match,,,,, The second place shooter was not using a SS gun and to my mind is and was the better shooter on that day ,,, but he was also the loser !!! And I think it was TIME SAVED with the SS rifle that enabled the Top shooter to win ....

 

AND NOT A LACK OF PRATICE !!!!!!!!!!!! OR DEDICATION !!!

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

Jabez, we all play by the same rules. The WB, through the mods document and the associated ammo rules laid down the "game". We run within the rules as they were written (and not by me, trust me, I had zero input). FWIW I have nothing against the IDEA of a "stock" gun class. I do however find the REALITY of enforcement within a volunteer-run game to be fanciful at best, devisive and unfair (if poorly administered) at worst. In many instances, even with a full teardown and measurement against some industry-provided drawings (would that they were available), there would be darned few who could 100% confidently rule in all instances what was legal and what was not if "stock" was the specification. Even many of our game's best gunsmiths (certainly not enough of them to populate all our matches) would disagree. Even if one were to totally change the model and create an industry-funded "stock gun challenge" (IROC, if you will), the variance common between one stock gun and the next would render such a contest unfair on it's face. The best one could hope for would be a high dollar, industry-sponsored "armory-prepped "IROC" (non-stock, smithed for equality) gun game. What part of THAT is hard to understand?

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While everyone it seems agrees that it is faster to shoot a SS rifle ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, some won't addmit that it is a desided advaatage to do so ...

 

I have seen Big Matches where the outcome between 1st. and second place overall was .43 of a second in TT for the match,,,,, The second place shooter was not using a SS gun and to my mind is and was the better shooter on that day ,,, but he was also the loser !!! And I think it was TIME SAVED with the SS rifle that enabled the Top shooter to win ....

 

AND NOT A LACK OF PRATICE !!!!!!!!!!!! OR DEDICATION !!!

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

In .43 of a second, I can draw my pistol, shoot and reholster. If I shot a WHOLE match and came in second behind a feller shooting a SS rifle, I would be 2nd.....thats all. It sure couldn't be blamed on his SS rifle over 10 stages.

 

It takes most folks about 1/2 a second to blink their eyeball.

 

Anyhow, just to repeat what everyone has been saying for years, those that want a category for 'Stock' rifles need to spend more time working for their cause and less time complaining on the Wire about non having their own category. If anyone should feel slighted about not having their own category, it should be Birdgun Quail not having his Baptist category. Cause atleast he goes to church.

 

And for the record, my rifle ain't SS. But I practice alittle.

 

Jabez, ifn you can supply the names and match, someone on the Wire might be able to supply more details about that match and maybe, just maybe, it could appear that the .43 separation might be credited to the feller with the SS rifle.

 

Y'all have a nice day.

 

 

..........Widder

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Boy this thread is morphing fast. It started out with a technical question, moved to a discussion of how to test the difference, and has become something totally different.

 

I think that if it really has slowed, I know what might have happened to membership growth, or at least part of what might have happened, but that is a different topic for a different thread. FYI in my opinion the problem isn't with SASS, I think it has something to do with the larger economy and the decline of the American middle class. Prices keep going up, but incomes are flat or declining. Middle class people have less and less money for recreational activities like attending distant SASS events. That is not really a good topic for the wire.

 

By the way Oddnews, I hope to see you at Higginsville this Sunday. Snicklfritz and his gang are doing a great job with the Rocky Branch Rangers. Monthly attendance seems to be increasing. The Powder Creek Cowboys also seem to be doing well. We had over 60 shooting last weekend, including several new shooters. That is about all I know about the doings on the Missouri/Kansas border, but I will learn more next month when I shoot at Border Wars down in Parker, Kansas.

 

Bart, I wish I could be there, but I have a poker run up here in Iowa this weekend. I'll be shooting here in Milan, IL for the last two shoots of the season.

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If I had to shoot the guns they shot in the real west,I could not shoot.Some guys shoot 1st gen. colts.One colt cost more that both my pistols and my shotguns,two colts cost more than and all my guns and leather put together.I could not afford to shoot real BP.I just shoot for the fun that is in this game.Does the SS rifle make me beat the shooters that beat me before I got the SS rifle.No it dont.Is it more fun to shoot a ss rifle,a little but it is a lot more fun to shoot a slicked up one.If someone want to shoot colts,a real win 1873,a real greener or what ever shotgun they had,great that you have the money to get what you want to shoot.I shoot what I can afford to shoot.Get at your club and make a class for real cowboy guns,if you get more people that want to shoot real cowboy guns maybe it will spread to the next club and maybe the state.

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Jabez, we all play by the same rules. The WB, through the mods document and the associated ammo rules laid down the "game". We run within the rules as they were written (and not by me, trust me, I had zero input). FWIW I have nothing against the IDEA of a "stock" gun class. I do however find the REALITY of enforcement within a volunteer-run game to be fanciful at best, devisive and unfair (if poorly administered) at worst. In many instances, even with a full teardown and measurement against some industry-provided drawings (would that they were available), there would be darned few who could 100% confidently rule in all instances what was legal and what was not if "stock" was the specification. Even many of our game's best gunsmiths (certainly not enough of them to populate all our matches) would disagree. Even if one were to totally change the model and create an industry-funded "stock gun challenge" (IROC, if you will), the variance common between one stock gun and the next would render such a contest unfair on it's face. The best one could hope for would be a high dollar, industry-sponsored "armory-prepped "IROC" (non-stock, smithed for equality) gun game. What part of THAT is hard to understand?

 

But we already have a standard on how far a short stroke must be able to open. If we can enforce that standard, we can enforce any other standard. The bars to enforcing such a class are over-emphasized by people who simply want to modify their guns. So mote it be -- it's taken some of the flavor out of the sport for me.

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While everyone it seems agrees that it is faster to shoot a SS rifle ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, some won't addmit that it is a desided advaatage to do so ...

 

I have seen Big Matches where the outcome between 1st. and second place overall was .43 of a second in TT for the match,,,,, The second place shooter was not using a SS gun and to my mind is and was the better shooter on that day ,,, but he was also the loser !!! And I think it was TIME SAVED with the SS rifle that enabled the Top shooter to win ....

 

AND NOT A LACK OF PRATICE !!!!!!!!!!!! OR DEDICATION !!!

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

So the guy that got beat by .43 seconds never missed his holster or bobbled a shotgun reload? Or missed his hammer at least once? Thats 3 of about 100 things that can cost you .43 seconds in a 10 or 12 stage match. If he did none of the above congratulate him on shooting a perfect match.

 

Something I've never come close to, but strive to do.

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But we already have a standard on how far a short stroke must be able to open. If we can enforce that standard, we can enforce any other standard. The bars to enforcing such a class are over-emphasized by people who simply want to modify their guns. So mote it be -- it's taken some of the flavor out of the sport for me.

 

 

I can see from this last comment you are not a gunsmith, nor have ya slept at a Holliday Inn Express recently. Sure we can measure lever throw, but as Widdowmaker Hill has proven with his Widdermatic Marlins, and I myself have done with a "well-used but stock" '73, much can be done to seriously improve the lightness of function and speed of operation of a rifle without short stroking it. But these changes are subtle, and even in many instances tough to distinguish from extensive wear or natural weakening of things like poorly made springs..... Are you prepared to tear down rifles and measure spring rates on some machine, then determine FOR SURE the difference between a poorly heat treated "stiff" spring that is on the verge of failure having lost it's set, to a newly minted "light" spring, or a re-tempered" original spring purposely made weaker? I'm not. Are you prepared to tear down and inspect every rifle post match? I'm not......

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Well

Ive been out of touch for a day or so and I come back to find lots to read. I asked the question because Im at the point where 1 or 2 seconds make a difference. I do this because its fun but, I do have that competitive side and a top shooter said I should switch it out. So I guess it comes down to after all the practice I still succumb to when in rome do like the cowboys do. Seriously, this is still supposed to be fun and I will do my part to keep it that way.

Swan

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ON, as n example, A pard recently bought a .22 marlin levergun. This fine gun, manufactured in 1980, had been shot little and cleaned infrequently (some of it had never been cleaned of the heavy preservative grease from manufacture.) It was exceedingly stiff, so he asked me to do what I could to slick it up some.

 

Let's imagine I used the ON formula for stock.

 

I guess removing the cosmoline would be legal.

 

Perhaps removing manufacturing burrs that should have been taken care of at the factory would be legal.

 

MAYBE improving the tolerances between some of the quite tight parts by stoning their interfaces would be legal?

 

Stoning the sliding surfaces, simulating 30 years of hard use? Yep.

 

Reprofililing the cocking surface of the hammer? probably not.

 

Changing the mainspring? Nope (so I woulda heated up and weakened the original, no biggee if ya know how, but there is a risk of less than great reliability over time).

 

Slighty bending the other small springs to reduce the resistance when cycling, yet preserve reliable proper function? I dunno, what is the standard, and how you gonna know what I did?

 

In the end, you could tear that rifle down and 99% of the dramatic improvement VS a "rock stock" gun would be "grey areas" impossible to enforce.

 

But the SHOOTER running it in a .22 side match is gonna know.....

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I can see from this last comment you are not a gunsmith, nor have ya slept at a Holliday Inn Express recently. Sure we can measure lever throw, but as Widdowmaker Hill has proven with his Widdermatic Marlins, and I myself have done with a "well-used but stock" '73, much can be done to seriously improve the lightness of function and speed of operation of a rifle without short stroking it. But these changes are subtle, and even in many instances tough to distinguish from extensive wear or natural weakening of things like poorly made springs..... Are you prepared to tear down rifles and measure spring rates on some machine, then determine FOR SURE the difference between a poorly heat treated "stiff" spring that is on the verge of failure having lost it's set, to a newly minted "light" spring, or a re-tempered" original spring purposely made weaker? I'm not. Are you prepared to tear down and inspect every rifle post match? I'm not......

 

Improving the lightness and speed of function isn't an issue. It was done in the real Old West. That's what irks me personally about short strokes -- we have an Old West game using guns that don't act like guns from the Old West.

 

The minute you bring this up someone brings in a long list of irrelevancies. They usually start with Rugers, because the first shot fired in the first SASS match was fired by a Ruger in .30 Carbine. But Rugers, from the standpoint of shooting them in competition, don't work any differently than Colts. You cock them and pull the trigger (unless you've had them short stroked, and yes, there are short stroke kits for them).

 

Once that's been touted, they'll move on to "how did you get to the range? Did you ride a horse?" as though that affected the competition at the firing line in any way.

 

And ultimately, you'll hear, "We're not reenacting, it's a "fantasy sport." A specious argument as a fantasy can encompass anything. I once read an absolutely excellent book called "Guns of the South" in which (via time travel) Confederate troops at the Wilderness were equipped with AK-47s. Can I include that fantasy in my SASS competitions? Obviously not.

 

I've lost all hope of there ever being a set aside in the sport for people who don't use short-stroke rifles and confine themselves only to the sort of slicking up done in the real Old West. We can have such set asides for people who shoot with one hand, or with a gun in each hand, or for people who dress funny, etcetera, but none for those of us who simply want to compete against other people using the guns the way they were designed and used. That's too much to ask, and I've quit asking. I shoot, slow but reasonably accurately, using single action revolvers, lever action rifles and double shotguns, and that's all I want to do anymore. The idea that I might shoot against like-minded individuals using similar weapons is gone.

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Hmmmm, I am certainly not against anyone who wants to lobby the TG's for a "box-stock" category, or get it started at the local level and work up. I believe it's too late to change the entire sport, nor would I want to give up my Codymatics or C&I tweaked rifles. (Anyone who has seen me shoot knows I'm not doing it for the speed! :lol: )

 

But, how do you define box-stock when rifles and pistols are coming now with these changes right from the factory? Is there going to be a standard measurement of lever throw that's going to be used? If so, whose gun will be the standard? I have one original Winchester that has less lever travel than the other, both headspace properly. Is regular smoothing going to be allowed? Is a "race-ready" Rossi '92 with the same lever travel as a stock Rossi '92 going to be allowed? Is one factory direct rifle that is smoother out of the box than the next guy's going to be allowed? How do I prove that my rifle is box stock? How do I prove that my rifle isn't slightly short stroked vs. a factory fresh rifle that has shorter lever travel built in?

 

I guess I'm overstating the difficulty, but you get the idea. I'd like to see someone who advocates a box-stock category, write up the rules and see how it would fly. Once the rules are posted, can you get enough pards to sign on to make it a viable category? Not criticizing, just asking questions.

 

Go for it!

McC

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Dont know too much about the difference in speed but I do know that at our last match I came in 2nd and my pard came in 1st. His 73 is bone stock, I shoot a Codymatic. :wacko: His overall time was 3 seconds faster than mine and 20 seconds faster than then next guy. (and thats not counting my misses) :lol:

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Improving the lightness and speed of function isn't an issue. It was done in the real Old West. That's what irks me personally about short strokes -- we have an Old West game using guns that don't act like guns from the Old West.

 

The minute you bring this up someone brings in a long list of irrelevancies. They usually start with Rugers, because the first shot fired in the first SASS match was fired by a Ruger in .30 Carbine. But Rugers, from the standpoint of shooting them in competition, don't work any differently than Colts. You cock them and pull the trigger (unless you've had them short stroked, and yes, there are short stroke kits for them).

 

Once that's been touted, they'll move on to "how did you get to the range? Did you ride a horse?" as though that affected the competition at the firing line in any way.

 

And ultimately, you'll hear, "We're not reenacting, it's a "fantasy sport." A specious argument as a fantasy can encompass anything. I once read an absolutely excellent book called "Guns of the South" in which (via time travel) Confederate troops at the Wilderness were equipped with AK-47s. Can I include that fantasy in my SASS competitions? Obviously not.

 

I've lost all hope of there ever being a set aside in the sport for people who don't use short-stroke rifles and confine themselves only to the sort of slicking up done in the real Old West. We can have such set asides for people who shoot with one hand, or with a gun in each hand, or for people who dress funny, etcetera, but none for those of us who simply want to compete against other people using the guns the way they were designed and used. That's too much to ask, and I've quit asking. I shoot, slow but reasonably accurately, using single action revolvers, lever action rifles and double shotguns, and that's all I want to do anymore. The idea that I might shoot against like-minded individuals using similar weapons is gone.

OK, you are refining the parameters.

 

I challenge you to go to your local club meeting with a proposed set of rules for the category, and get them to TRY IT OUT by offering it as an option locally. Get together a handful of friends who pledge to shoot the category (so the club sees a return on their minimal investment, and make it FUN enough so shooters wanna try it. Seems to me that's how we got B-Western and FCGF. All yer NEGATIVE carping here won't BUILD a damned thing. Ya wanna change things, go out there and BUILD it....

 

As somebody who has been feted and defamed for changing the game just a little, I can tell you it has to start on the firing line. That's where my little innovations proved themselves and what's where word of mouth has helped them take hold to the extent that they have. I heartily endorse the approach. FRIENDS is the opeartive word. Not friends in high places, friends in the shooting roster willing to give something new a try. If it is FUN they will wanna do it again, and will tell their friends.

 

AJ, who if gonna shoot the last two matches of the year the way I shot the first four, OUTLAW, a category without a place on the score sheet or the podium, but FUN enough that some of us like it.....

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I had the privilege of shooting with two great cowboys, Deadwood Woody and Cypress Scout.

I still get to shoot with Woody but Texas stole Scout, I miss ya man!!

For three years we shot together 3 times a month and many times we were inside 1 second, a handful of times the 3 of us were inside ½ second.

That’s between 1st and 3rd!!!!!!!!!

I’ve won our matchup shooting a stock Henry and lost shooting my super SS 66!!!!

A miss, a fumbled reload, a shotgun makeup, your slick boot slips in the sand…there go’s your ½ second and more.

There are so many variables in a match, to say the SS makes the difference, is naïve.

For the SS to make “the” difference, all shooter would have to shoot a perfect match.

 

My 114 year old Marlin 94 has a 1/8 inch longer stroke than my SS 1866 and the Marlin has a ½ in shorter LOP, which means my arm moves away from my body 3/8 ths less.

I’ve read that original 66s and 73s had shorter stroke than Uberti clones…never had the privilege of owning one.

My 92 Rossi has a 7/8ths longer stroke than my Uberti SS66 and the 92 is 1&1/2 inches shorter than my stock Uberti Henry.

 

I guess them real Cowboys that shot Marlins and 92s were gaming those that still used the 73s!!!!!!!

 

How much time does the SS save ya…not enough to mean diddly squat…unless you shoot a perfect game!!!!! RIGHT!!!!!

 

BH

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While everyone it seems agrees that it is faster to shoot a SS rifle ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, some won't addmit that it is a desided advaatage to do so ...

 

I have seen Big Matches where the outcome between 1st. and second place overall was .43 of a second in TT for the match,,,,, The second place shooter was not using a SS gun and to my mind is and was the better shooter on that day ,,, but he was also the loser !!! And I think it was TIME SAVED with the SS rifle that enabled the Top shooter to win ....

 

AND NOT A LACK OF PRATICE !!!!!!!!!!!! OR DEDICATION !!!

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Probably if the loser had one less bobble or one less miss, he would've won.,,,, also, if he was a bit better with any or all of the three other guns, he would've won,,, also, if he was .43seconds faster with transitions in the entire match, he would've won.. if he was .43 seconds faster in running, he would've won Does a SS rifle help? In the right hands it does. Is it a gurantee? No

 

Jabez, if you can not go out and pickup someones elses SS rifle/pistols/SG, and after a few stages of familiarity, drastically lower your times, then you are hiding behind the issue and just want to form a nitch protective catagory. Kind of like someone wanting a cross eyed, pot bellied, knock knee'd, pigion toed xx aged catagory cause they can not stand the heat in the other catagories where they could play. :mellow:

 

Edit, throw in Oddnews name into this too.

 

Blastmaster

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