Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Johnny Swan, SASS #50322

short stroke speed

Recommended Posts

Fellers, I'm thinking that it ain't total times of pickin up the rifle or starting from portarms but rather the split times.

 

Of course, there is always the human error built into these kind of things but all in all, split times would take into account smoothness of operations, increased resistance using different SS mods and ya even have to figure in speed drop time of the hammer. Now that would make it interesting.

 

Just imagine, having a SS rifle vs. a NON SS rifle and both levers operated the same except the hammer on the SS rifle falls slower than the hammer on the NON SS rifle.

 

Now that would blow all of our theories out of the water, especially mine.

 

Y'all try to have a good day. I sure am.

 

..........Widder (refining a NON SS Marlin this evening) :D:D:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ta-da!

 

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know this, when i ran a Spur Marlin, I could sometimes glue together blisterring rifle runs (clean the texas star before it moved, etc). A couple years ago when we came out with the Cowboy Carrier for the toggle tinks, I didn't own one. My pard Sgt Jake loaned me his, I put light springs in along with the C45S carrier, and it was smooth, but dangitall, compared to the 4 5/8" stroke of the Spur Marlin, it was like a 3 on the tree Ford VS a 4 on the floor with a Hurst kit in it. It got ya there, smooth and steady, but them long throws took time. For a time I ran widdermatic Marlins, shorter throw than a stock 73, and smooth. Now I got the Cody '73 with my C45S carrier in it, and FOR ME, it's as good as a Spur Marlin for speed, more reliable, easily a hair faster than a Widder Marlin, and a damned sight faster than slick but long stroke '73. The wait time shot to shot is palpably different, which sure matters on a muti-shot mover, a triple tap, of an alternate between close targets sequence. I CAN outrun a stock 73 in terms of target acquistition, I can't outrun the slick Cody Gun, it's ready to fire again as soon as I am with almost no sight disruption (with my loads).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doc -- what is a valid comparison and have you done one? I believe the short stroke offers some sort of advantage or people wouldn't use them.

 

A valid comparison would be to take 2 identical rifles, but one with a SS and one without, and then shoot a bunch of strings out of each recording the splits for each 10 shot run. Then average out the split times. 10 runs out of each rifle would probably be needed. I'd also suggest each set of runs (1 with each rifle) be done with different target orders. For example, shoot both with 2 sweeps of the same 5 targets. Then shoot both on a double tap sweep of the same 5 targets, etc.

 

Then have another shooter do the same. And a 3rd shooter as well. After 10 runs with each rifle, by 3 different shooters, you'd have a pretty good data set.

 

I have not done that comparison. I don't have 2 rifles that fit that criteria.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(Emphasis and words added to show the differences)

 

I'll bet, just to be contrary, that the difference in time is due to the larger cartridge, heavier recoil, more mass moving around, rather than the difference between 3rd gen and 5th gen short stroke.

 

So, let's reserve judgment until we get two rifles that are more closely matched.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Widder, no I don't remember what my first shot was. I wrote the times down that day just as a side note.

 

GJ, the recoil on the 180 gr bullet is almost non-existant, and in fact the weight of the barrel on the .45 is lighter because of the larger hole in it. This is still not a good comparison no matter what, it was only meant as a scientific WAG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doc, the problem with any such test is ANY shooter will do better with a rifle after a time to settle in with it. So let's say yer runnin yer 73 well, and somebody hands ya widdermatic marlin. It will be a while, likely months, before you re-map the muscle memory to get the best out of it. Though purely anecdotal, the various rifles I mentioned in my post above I ran at least a season each, giving em a fair chance for me to settle in....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks like a non-scientific consensus here would indicate the short-stroke kit offers a recognizable speed advantage. It would be interesting to see the results of the test Doc Shapiro defined.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks like a non-scientific consensus here would indicate the short-stroke kit offers a recognizable speed advantage. It would be interesting to see the results of the test Doc Shapiro defined.

 

It's a timed event...speed matters. That's also why I wear Ropers...lower heel...faster movement.

 

It's also why I have a leather wrap on my lever...

 

It's also why I use the sights I use...

 

It's also why my S.G. has what IT has...

 

Etc

 

Etc

 

OY!!!!!!!!!

 

:wacko:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the local level I am almost always the posse leader or the alternate TO. I have also been the posse leader at two state matches and have run the timer at large matches like the Midwest Classic and two US Opens. Obviously when I am running the timer I am watching the shooter, but I have also gotten into the habit of watching the shooter whenever I am not doing any other posse chores. I have timed slow, moderate and fast shooters, and have watched some of SASS's elite shooters.

 

I have observed shooters with short stroked guns hesitate on every shot, and I have to assume they are doing the front sight, target, rear sight, front sight drill before they pull the trigger. The SS gives them very little time savings, because they take so long to aim.

 

I have also seen shooters using good action shooting technique (pulling the trigger as soon as the front sight is on target) using factory stroked guns. A SS would probably help them, not because cycling the gun happens faster but because as has been said several times before, less hand movement = less sight movement. Less sight movement = quicker target acquisition and quicker target acquisition = faster follow up shots.

 

Will a SS turn a middle of the pack shooter into a top ten shooter? Not unless there are less than 21 shooters at the match. :rolleyes: Will a SS lower your stage times? Not as much as good technique and good transitions, or even a good action job will.

 

All this is a long winded way of saying what has already been said........IT'S THE SHOOTER!

 

Hope this helps,

 

Smoke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course yer granny can't run 200 mph even in a NASCAR Cup car, but jeepers fellers, let's look at the "backbone" of CAS. Let's look at the 30 second squaw gripper or 35 second Duelist. These folks absolutely CAN benefit from better equipment. if I was asked "what's the best $400 I could spend on Mods?" I'd probably reply, "SBH hammers for yer rugers, and a good, modest (3rd gen or equivalent) SS for your 73, and a good slickin to go with it." Will it make em a champion? No, but it'll take some time and some frustration out of the game. NOBODY I know likes to miss with their rifle (which happens a lot when they try to overrun the crappy rifle with frantic attempts at speed) and nobody likes to stand there like a doofus and do the "ruger round again" when ya slip off the hammer. A slicker rifle and them low hammers WILL make stages more fun, and might could make em faster when ya don't make as many misses or other time-consuming errors or adjustments. Get CONFIDENT with yer SS rifle, and yes, even a middling shooter can learn to "hose em down"....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless someone can figure out how to cut transition times with a short stroke kit ...... all of this is mostly irrelevant......

 

 

Stan

There's ya TA---DAHGEN MY AZZZ!

 

 

RRR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just enjoy a well tuned, nicely functioning machine. Yes, my rifles are short stroked. Love 'em. Am I still a bottom of the pack shooter? Yep! Do I practice? No. It takes years of dedication to shoot this slow with such nice equipment!

 

Edit... AJ you said what I was thinking.. that's why I have. Codymatics, Wes Flowers Rugers and a host of other tweaks and fixes. Early on I got real frustrated with a box-stock 92, untweaked 311, and Ruger-go-rounds... I then went to quality guns, some professional smithing and learned proper control of my guns. But I'm still a gimpy BP shooter with an occasionally good day.

 

Duc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just enjoy a well tuned, nicely functioning machine. Yes, my rifles are short stroked. Love 'em. Am I still a bottom of the pack shooter? Yep! Do I practice? No. It takes years of dedication to shoot this slow with such nice equipment!

 

Edit... AJ you said what I was thinking.. that's why I have. Codymatics, Wes Flowers Rugers and a host of other tweaks and fixes. Early on I got real frustrated with a box-stock 92, untweaked 311, and Ruger-go-rounds... I then went to quality guns, some professional smithing and learned proper control of my guns. But I'm still a gimpy BP shooter with an occasionally good day.

 

Duc

 

 

McCandless ole pard, look at the Heluva Rukus vid for stage 7. At the flatcar ya have to flip a lever to activate the mover, and if yer quick, get off 8 rounds before it disappears behind the water tower frame. NOBODY can tell me a short stroke, slick rifle won't help even a slow shooter here. If I can do 8 shots before the target disappears, with time to spare, then I can fumble through the rest of the stage in under 40 seconds total. If I gotta wait for the target to reappear before finishing it off, gotta cost me 3-5 seconds easy....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya know, some folks like numbers and want to quantify the difference. Problem is, the difference is not going to be consistent among shooters of different abilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have tuned guns and out-of-the-box guns, some out-of-the-box 120 years ago. For me, I will spend more time practing with a gun that I have invested money into tuning and I have more confidence in a gun that an expert has gone through. That gun will be faster than one of my non-tuned, and it has nothing to do with the actual refinements. It's all mental and practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This ......... Is a Game we play. It's not necessarily fun to play a game if you have to fight your equipment. A well tuned rifle, whether toggle link, '92, Marlin, or what ever, it's just a lot more fun to play with a gun that works.

Doc Shapiro said it best, folks are trying to quantify something that isn't a constant for all shooters and actually doesn't mean much anyway, so why bother.

The bottom line is well set up guns are just plain more fun to play with.

 

Coffinmaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks like a non-scientific consensus here would indicate the short-stroke kit offers a recognizable speed advantage. It would be interesting to see the results of the test Doc Shapiro defined.

 

SS rifles may have a speed advantage,, and probably do. PLUS a mental advantage. You are already whipped cause you believe there is a speed advantage that you can not over come with your hardware and shooting ability.

 

Don't forget, there are three other firearms in the mix that you must master before the difference between a SS rifle and non SS rifle begin to play a factor in placement in a match.

 

If you are truely interested Oddnew, then run the test and report back. I am not intrested.

 

Blastmaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This ......... Is a Game we play. It's not necessarily fun to play a game if you have to fight your equipment. A well tuned rifle, whether toggle link, '92, Marlin, or what ever, it's just a lot more fun to play with a gun that works.

Doc Shapiro said it best, folks are trying to quantify something that isn't a constant for all shooters and actually doesn't mean much anyway, so why bother.

The bottom line is well set up guns are just plain more fun to play with.

 

Coffinmaker

 

 

Back in the early '70s, a guy maybe 10 years older than me (which made him ancient at 26 or so), had a mid '60s vintage plymouth he'd gone through from one end to the other. It was his daily driver until the first snowflake fell, with traction bars, cheater slicks, baby moon hub caps on chrome reverse wheels, and a bored and stroked hemi with solid lifters and a 3/4 cam that rumbled through the high end performance exhaust and out the tailpipes, 2.5"ers hung right under the bumper, loping at idle as it warmed up. His daily ritual was to let it run until the oil temperature was in range, and the solid lifters stopped clattering. Then he'd get in the car and head out, not chirping the tires, but confidently short shifting and letting the hemi talk. His winter car was a rotted to heck '63 VW bug. It got him to and from work just the same but I am sure had a lot fewer "smiles per mile" associated with it.

 

Comprende?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SS rifles may have a speed advantage,, and probably do. PLUS a mental advantage. You are already whipped cause you believe there is a speed advantage that you can not over come with your hardware and shooting ability.

 

Don't forget, there are three other firearms in the mix that you must master before the difference between a SS rifle and non SS rifle begin to play a factor in placement in a match.

 

If you are truely interested Oddnew, then run the test and report back. I am not intrested.

 

Blastmaster

 

Whipped? I'm just curious about the question. If I really wanted to be a top competitor I'd spend the winter working on the thing that really slows me down the most -- which is reloading the double-barrel shotgun (I had an all-shotgun stage last weekend that I ran clean, breaking the in-flight birds - in the rain -- and finiished it in something like 77 seconds. In other words, pathetic). I didn't raise the question, I'm just interested in the results. Having said that, my own guns will not ever be short stroked, although they will be and are "tuned" to "work properly" -- properly for me being the way they would have worked in the Old West, where there were no short stroke kits. Other people may choose to play however they desire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whipped? I'm just curious about the question. If I really wanted to be a top competitor I'd spend the winter working on the thing that really slows me down the most -- which is reloading the double-barrel shotgun (I had an all-shotgun stage last weekend that I ran clean, breaking the in-flight birds - in the rain -- and finiished it in something like 77 seconds. In other words, pathetic). I didn't raise the question, I'm just interested in the results. Having said that, my own guns will not ever be short stroked, although they will be and are "tuned" to "work properly" -- properly for me being the way they would have worked in the Old West, where there were no short stroke kits. Other people may choose to play however they desire.

 

 

Very well,

 

As has been mentioned, there are to many variables to be able to quantify exactly the amount of performance gain/loss.

 

Last week, I had to borrow a 73 rifle that was the same make, model, caliber, and it too had a short stroke kit (3rd I think)in it. The lever was wrapped different than mine and the levering action felt slightly different than mine. I won the match but on every rifle round, I had a small levering glitch somewhere in the string of ten which caused a fraction of a second in time. The owner of the gun ran it smooth. The problem was me and not the gun, I was not use to it and my muscle memory was tuned to my gun and not his. I could definitely say that my time was slower with the borrowed gun than mine and both were near identical. I thought of this when I read Docs compairison test between a SS rifle and a non SSrifle. I don't think one person can run both types side by side and make a valid time advantage comparison cause the shooter will be tuned into one rifle or the other better.

 

Blastmaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been reading this.I bought a 73 has a 3rd gen SS,it was nice. I got all the parts to put the safety back in it and had PCC INC. put the parts back in it and slick it up some more.It is so slick that I grin the whole time I am shooting it.Can I run it as fast as it will run.NO,Do I enjoy shooting it more ,OH YES.Is My time faster on a dump I would say yes.What I like the most about the SS is I can put my thumb on the side of the stock and just move my fingers and stay on target.What I like about the slicked up part is I lever it with one finger and grin while I am doing it.I know that I will get faster with it because it is more fun to shoot so I shoot it more.Will I ever be as fast as the fast shooters,Nope.I started to late and I have RA,But the fast guys won't have any more fun than I will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly not scientific by any means, but I went from a '92 with the NKJ action job to a short-stroked '66. I easily cut my rifle engagment times almost in half (even more if there's a dump or multiple taps on a single target). I attribute most of that to the rifle staying more steady than the actual length of the lever throw (as Nate points out in his post above). The '92 is slick, but the movement involved to chamber the next round tended to require me to re-acquire the target after every shot.....with the short-stroked '66, the front sight stays pretty much on the target/where I'm pointing it. Rifle, for me, went from my slowest gun to my fastest gun through this transition.

 

YMMV/FWIW.

 

Chick

Me too, Not bad mouthing the '92 because I love it. I got a '73 this year with a SS and I'm faster with the '73. Part of the reason is I got to the point were I was short stroking the '92 and causing it to not feed properly. I could be wrong, but I feel that matching the gun to the shooter is the way to gain speed. It worked for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course yer granny can't run 200 mph even in a NASCAR Cup car, but jeepers fellers, let's look at the "backbone" of CAS. Let's look at the 30 second squaw gripper or 35 second Duelist. These folks absolutely CAN benefit from better equipment. if I was asked "what's the best $400 I could spend on Mods?" I'd probably reply, "SBH hammers for yer rugers, and a good, modest (3rd gen or equivalent) SS for your 73, and a good slickin to go with it." Will it make em a champion? No, but it'll take some time and some frustration out of the game. NOBODY I know likes to miss with their rifle (which happens a lot when they try to overrun the crappy rifle with frantic attempts at speed) and nobody likes to stand there like a doofus and do the "ruger round again" when ya slip off the hammer. A slicker rifle and them low hammers WILL make stages more fun, and might could make em faster when ya don't make as many misses or other time-consuming errors or adjustments. Get CONFIDENT with yer SS rifle, and yes, even a middling shooter can learn to "hose em down"....

 

You quicker folks lose sight of the fact that to a lot of us, a 35 second stage would be heaven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You quicker folks lose sight of the fact that to a lot of us, a 35 second stage would be heaven.

 

Noz, and that's kinda the point. MY pistol work is lousy these days (I've practiced maybe twice since converting to duelist years ago) and my SG skills are slipping (ditto), but when I get "in the groove" with the rifle, I can have a few seconds of FUN that lights my face up and sometimes even makes the peanut gallery respond with a cheer, and THAT is my "EOT buckle" (Closest I'll ever git)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless someone can figure out how to cut transition times with a short stroke kit ...... all of this is mostly irrelevant......

 

 

Stan

 

 

 

+1

Thanks Stan

 

I think this just about covers it and answers the REAL question of "how can I be faster"????

Short Stroke or Stock... '66, '73, '92 or your Marlin... If you can't transition from handgun to shotgun to rifle QUICKLY and SMOOTHLY, you're not going to be that much faster..... Bottom Line, it's how the shooter handles his/her guns that tells the story

 

IMHO

 

Frio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point Noz. A lot of the time folks on the wire forget that for most of us shooting in the low 30s is an improvement. I have no doubt shortstroking is worth it for middle of the pack shooters trying to get better.

 

I have learned one thing. Once you use a shortstroked rifle going back is difficult.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't count out the folks that just gotta have the best of whatever they are talking about...even thou that can't get that expensive dog to hunt like it should, they can look good doing it. I suspect that is why a good number of folks have invested in the SS rifles. :rolleyes:

 

Blastmaster, (who can get the dog off the porch but not up to a full dead run.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't count out the folks that just gotta have the best of whatever they are talking about...even thou that can't get that expensive dog to hunt like it should, they can look good doing it. I suspect that is why a good number of folks have invested in the SS rifles. :rolleyes:

 

Blastmaster, (who can get the dog off the porch but not up to a full dead run.)

 

Hey you talkin about me? :lol:

 

One day I may be able to catch up to my rifle but for now I am having a heck of a lot of fun shooting that slicked up short stroked beauty. I don't think I am much faster with my 73 than I was with my 92 but it is a lot more fun to shoot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest lightfootslim

Call me old fashioned but,using a stroke kit is just a crutch. It's all part of an arms race to get an edge with technology instead of practice. We shoot 19th century arms because they're cool. Why make 21st century mods ? Just shoot 'em like they were made! Lots & lots!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Call me old fashioned but,using a stroke kit is just a crutch. It's all part of an arms race to get an edge with technology instead of practice. We shoot 19th century arms because they're cool. Why make 21st century mods ? Just shoot 'em like they were made! Lots & lots!

 

Hear! Hear!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those of you who advocate going back to the 19th century guns, etc.....please feel free to send me your Rugers. Thank you kindly. :D

 

 

..........Widder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those of you who advocate going back to the 19th century guns, etc.....please feel free to send me your Rugers. Thank you kindly. :D

 

 

..........Widder

 

You can have all of them I use in competition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Call me old fashioned but,using a stroke kit is just a crutch. It's all part of an arms race to get an edge with technology instead of practice. We shoot 19th century arms because they're cool. Why make 21st century mods ? Just shoot 'em like they were made! Lots & lots!

 

With that attitude I assume you are not competitive? If you don't want to shoot a mod gun then don't. If you are worried that the cost of the mods are unfair, try pricing out all the ammo it takes to get competitive. Mods are chicken feed compared to the cost of reloading components.

 

I don't know why everyone always picks on the rifle. We do shoot pistols and shotguns as well in matches. A short stroked rifle alone will never win you a match.

 

It's funny when short stroked rifles hit the game no one complained about them when it was still taking over three seconds for a good shooter to make a rifle run. So what changed?

 

I'll wait for the right answer on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Call me old fashioned but,using a stroke kit is just a crutch. It's all part of an arms race to get an edge with technology instead of practice. We shoot 19th century arms because they're cool. Why make 21st century mods ? Just shoot 'em like they were made! Lots & lots!

Do that and you could hold EOT in a porta potty. There's tht other "Cows" outfit that is making such HUGE in-roads they might need a handicapped sized porta potty for their world championships. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.