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Loading Table Officer duties


Widder, SASS #59054

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Hi Drifter,

 

I do not believe anyone here (whose posts I read ;) )said they would ignore them or treat them rudely where they existed. That's not the way things are done. We were just stating our preferences.

 

Or, at least that is the way I took most of the posts.

 

BTW, there is nothing in the ROI stating that all of the listed positions (Range Officers) are mandatory. I've only seen an Expeditor at one match, EOT, and Berm marshalls not always used.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Reading the responses again, I would agree not much opposition, but it is in the OP that if a LTO interrupted Red's SOP, he would decline, then make a stink, then an inference to ,shall i guess, bodily harm....I have heard of shooters that are pretty high maintenance for RO's, even heard stories of folks charging the timer just to get a reshoot....so perhaps I was bringing that baggage to the table...my point I suppose is if there are designated LTO's shooters should comply, it is a privilege to participate in an event not a right. And if the OP is questioning the LTO's duties, it is clear that an LTO could view their responsibility as inspecting firearms (for SASS compliance and for potential SDQ's), Counting Rounds, and assuring that shooters are prepared for the course of fire.

 

Were someone to ask me to spin my cylinders or work the action of my long gun to suit thier need for self-importance, I will politely decline. Should someone get vocal about my decline, I will take a trip to the match director. Should someone touch my guns while I'm loading them, they wouldn't like the results.

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And if the OP is questioning the LTO's duties, it is clear that an LTO could view their responsibility as inspecting firearms (for SASS compliance and for potential SDQ's), Counting Rounds, and assuring that shooters are prepared for the course of fire.

 

Not exactly. I was inquiring about their duties/functions as described in the RO manual(s). In particular, does the LTO have any mandated responsibility to ask the shooter to perform specific functions with their firearms before loading just to satisfy their own 'personal' requirements?

 

 

..........Widder

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This is an old debate...I can see both sides of a use or not use an LTO discussion....careful examination of the rules would indicate to me that while not specifically saying you have to have an LTO..there would a strong precedent that SASS intended you do...because they describe them in the rules...I don't want to start that debate overagain..I think one Gentleman got it right in that tact is the rule of the day for that position...I would add that tact along with a solid understanding of what you are really there for...which is to help other shooters..even individually responsible experienced shooters....this idea that we are all individually responsible sounds too cut throat for a social endevour as fun as SASS...so I'm not opposed to having an LTO or not...but I tend to side more to having one for a different reason than most...Please allow me to explain:

 

My understanding and it is just a story I heard and did not witness as fact...was that a shooter who was on his way to a World Title at EOT this year... went to the line with an unloaded rifle and put a quick stop to that dream...how quickly many would say it is his own fault and he is responsible...and they would be right....But I'll bet my next paycheck that man would have loved me to had been his LTO and asked him "Hey Bud...I didn't see you load that rifle. Did I?"

 

In the end I would rather shoot than debate rules...but it seems to me that whenever I go to any match, big or small, that has that "we are all personally responsible and we don't need no stinking LTO's" attitude...several people end up with some serious mistakes that could have been easily prevented....and while not particually unsafe..It did serious damage to their Fun factor... That is a real danger....for any sport...I understand everybody's position but I hate to see this "everyman for himself"....Is that really what we have become? SASS has been doing this for what?..30 some odd years and I don't think anyone has shot someone else...I think a couple have shot themselves...in the foot...literally..while at the loading table I think...I personally have witnessed 6 accidental discharges at several different clubs at the loading table and one was at a "big match" out West...Countless procedurals as well...So... too much safety?..really?....OK..off the soapbox..I'm going to go bed now....Ya'll do whatever you want..Just please don't accidently shoot me...I'm just trying to help my fellow man, Love God and enjoy living.

 

PS.Just a funny..I had the best LTO ever at EOT...he was Italian. Spoke no English. No real sign language either. Just eye movement.....I cleared my guns for him before I loaded...he counted rounds in Italian..trying to be more worldly I counted in John Wayne Spanish... weird but fun.

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Well governor, I'm not sure about your Nanny state reference, I'm talking about the SASS RO1 manual. My club does not use LTOs either, but should I attend an event that does I'm not going to act like an entitled arrogent drama queen and ignore local safety officers....when in Rome. I may be new to SASS but I am not new to range operations, shooters that think they know better than the club or range safety officers don't last long. Again my point, respect local convention and let designated safety officers do thier jobs. Any know it all drama queen shooter will be known by what they are, and the ROs/RSOs will not loose a wink of sleep over it.

 

[edit: Just to be clear I am referring to those respondents who have voiced such strong opposition and obstinacy to anyone asking for additional inspection at a loading table at a club match that DOES have a LTO.]

 

Where you in the military and or law enforcement?

 

:mellow:

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Reading the responses again, I would agree not much opposition, but it is in the OP that if a LTO interrupted Red's SOP, he would decline, then make a stink, then an inference to ,shall i guess, bodily harm....I have heard of shooters that are pretty high maintenance for RO's, even heard stories of folks charging the timer just to get a reshoot....so perhaps I was bringing that baggage to the table...my point I suppose is if there are designated LTO's shooters should comply, it is a privilege to participate in an event not a right. And if the OP is questioning the LTO's duties, it is clear that an LTO could view their responsibility as inspecting firearms (for SASS compliance and for potential SDQ's), Counting Rounds, and assuring that shooters are prepared for the course of fire.

 

If you look at the RO 1 manual, page 10, under Loading/Unloading Table Officer, you will not find any responsibility to make me spin my cylinders on my pistols or to work the actions on my long guns. I have no problems if the LTO wants to count the rounds as they go into my guns. I have no problem showing an empty chamber under my hammers on my pistols. Those are the responsibility of a LTO. The other is excess and I don't have the time or desire to stroke someone's feeling of self-importance.

 

If you think that it's "making a stink" to take a possible problem to the Match Director, you need to re-read the Shooter's Handbook again. Taking an issue that could esclate into a physical altercation to the MD is supposed to be what grown-ups do. Not settle things with their fists. Unless you prefer that.

 

As for "an inference to ,shall I guess, bodily harm"......Unless a muzzle is creating a safety hazard and needs immediate correction, touching another person's LOADED firearms is not going to be tolerated on any posse I run. I don't care who you are or think you are, you are gone.

 

And if my Loading Table routine offends you, I suggest you not stand next to me in the loading line. If you do, don't be suprised if I don't talk to you. I'm trying to remember the stage and figure out how I want to shoot it. If that makes me "high maintenance" in your estimation, so be it.

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I only wish we had the luxury of having enuff personnel to allow an LTO. Around here, when you only have 4 or 5 shooters total, an LTO is out of the question. Sometimes the TO is also the scorekeeper and a spotter, possibly the only spotter. After recording the score, the TO will actually help shag brass. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do ta git 'er done.

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I only wish we had the luxury of having enuff personnel to allow an LTO. Around here, when you only have 4 or 5 shooters total, an LTO is out of the question. Sometimes the TO is also the scorekeeper and a spotter, possibly the only spotter. After recording the score, the TO will actually help shag brass. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do ta git 'er done.

..

Dang Dog....Your part of TX must be out there to only muster 5...the minimum SASS requires to have a match....Let me tell you how we have handled that in the past when weather(7 degrees F) cut our attendance down to 5-7...First move unloading table beside loading table....all but one shooter loads and then the four watch him load and everybody LEAVES GUNS ON TABLE.. one Timer...3 spotters..one shooter takes his guns to line...shoots.. and then returns them to table and just leaves them at table uncleared...then next shooter and everybody rotates...after every one has shot...clear all guns at one time in same 1 on 4 and 4 on 1 manner that you loaded... there you go..supervised, safe and stage runs quickly..there are no problems...only solutions...I learned this from my RO teacher

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We doan keer whut SASS sez is minimum # to have a match. If 4 show up, we will shoot. Now in the winter when the Hawk is howlin' hard outta the north and it's sleetin' sideways here in podunk Pampa town and only me and the MD show up, we doan set the steel and bs for a while and go back home.

 

Now down at the Canadian R. Regulators 5 showing up is probably the low record for show ups. In all fairness, CRR has always shot on the second Saturday and we usually have at least one good size posse and more usually two. Sometimes 3 skinny posses. At our last few annuals we have had 3 full posses. Also the Shortgrass Rangers were having their Hell on the Prairie 2 day shoot (well-named as it hit 111 degrees I hear). That cut attendance; and I was sick and couldn't make either one. The 3rd Saturday shoot was added coupla years back when Elk City folded and has never been as well-attended as the usual 2nd Sat one is.

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Look at it another way, perhaps the LTO does not know what is appropriate and your polite response of "no" will save him from getting hold of someone not so polite! It is real easy to sit here on the puter thingy and say what does it hurt BUT when he is allowed this trespass beyond rule requirements, what will he think up next??? "WAIT JUST ONE MINUTE THERE PARD, get back here, I want to count the cartridges in that belt...", and your response is? Sure it sounds silly, but that is only til it happens, then it shows up here as serious and we will have a group who will attempt to legitimize it under the guise of just getting along. If you want the rules to read a full unloading table recheck at the loading table, then lobby for it, do not try and sneak it in the back door. Lets pretend it is 1950 again and things are once again either black or white, if it is right, do it, otherwise do not.

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I'm surprised this thread is still going on.I figured by now most points of view would have been hashed and re-hashed to death.Maybe it's time to move onto something else instead of argueing about opinions of others as to do we need one or not in the grand scope of CAS.

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4 pages, and still at the loading table. Isn't anyone being called up to shoot? :) :) MT

why do that according to some there has been enough shootings at the unloading table :lol: :lol:

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..

Dang Dog....Your part of TX must be out there to only muster 5...the minimum SASS requires to have a match...

Where does it say you have to have five? Don't make me come over there and put a whompin' on you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hijack alert. tongue.gif

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Dang Buck, yer little smiley face thingies is broke, does it hurt? :D

 

I reckon he figured the 5 as one shooter, a TO, and 3 spotters. Sure don't know that 5 is mandated though, and even if it were, local clubs are free to do as they please for monthly matches.

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4 pages, and still at the loading table. Isn't anyone being called up to shoot? :) :) MT

 

 

wow

its the wire

 

it must be 110 outside on my patio

 

yikes

yup it is, and thats in the shade

oh well

it gives me something to read

 

same deal

iffen ya want LTO's then have em

Iffen ya dont want LTO's then dont have em

 

if ya have em, and they NICELY ask ya ta spin your cylinder

what the hec

why not do it

 

 

its time to move on to

power factor or sumethin else

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Where does it say you have to have five? Don't make me come over there and put a whompin' on you.

 

Oh No my gun in each hand cross eyed friend...I get all my info from the best RO I know...Big John Denny....Now if you just need whompin practice see him....I don't argue with with a man that big...man is so big every time he buys a holster cows across the county grow faint...He said it..I took it as fact...if you need to give or recieve a whopmpin or proof...well...you know him...better yet send Sugah....yea that's the ticket...she'll drag him around by his nose...But by the way....will I see you at the Alabama or Tenn State match?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hijack alert. tongue.gif

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Not going to voice an opinion one way or the other except to say."yes there are some arrogant LTO's out there and there are some arrogant shooters at the loading table". Everyone is an "Expert". :blush:

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