Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I am seeing a lot of stages with a "Low Port Arms" starting position for rifle for example. Since I am not familiar with this starting position, I ask each time and every RO seems to have his own idea of what it means. So what does it mean? Is it defined anywhere in writing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Randall, SASS #45902 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Stage conventions 11. Cowboy port arms is defined as standing fully erect with the butt of the long gun at or below the waist of the shooter, the muzzle at or above the shoulder, and the long gun held with both hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Annie SASS #37063 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I believe his question was about "low port arms." I've never heard of that one either. Is it the same as "cowboy port arms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden A. Grudge Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Stage conventions 11. Cowboy port arms is defined as standing fully erect with the butt of the long gun at or below the waist of the shooter, the muzzle at or above the shoulder, and the long gun held with both hands. pointed downrange? Pointed to the side? I too have had this position explained to me differently each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I believe his question was about "low port arms." I've never heard of that one either. Is it the same as "cowboy port arms? We use it at a range I go to because a highway is behind the range and they don't want to take a chance of a round over the berm, the starting position is basically butt stock at waist and barrel lowered close to vertical, instead of shoulder height. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Where I shoot in CO - low port arms is butt on leather, muzzle essentially level & pointed down range. Some places have highways or homes directly behind the birms. Any chance to prevent an AD over the birm is prudent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Ranges where ROs like to argue over port arms position might use "low port arms". Suggest using "rifle in hands" as a replacement, as we do at Founders Ranch. Rifle starts pointed at the target by almost all shooters that way. Some places have highways or homes directly behind the berms Someone has figured out how to outlaw edge hits and ricochets that exit the range at low angles? Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Ranges where ROs like to argue over port arms position might use "low port arms". Suggest using "rifle in hands" as a replacement, as we do at Founders Ranch. Rifle starts pointed at the target by almost all shooters that way. Someone has figured out how to outlaw edge hits and ricochets that exit the range at low angles? Good luck, GJ An edger or riccochet will have a considerable amount less steam than a round fired straight over a berm. Clubs do what they consider best. No big deal to comply with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Fingered Fred 59408 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 We use it at a range I go to because a highway is behind the range and they don't want to take a chance of a round over the berm, the starting position is basically butt stock at waist and barrel lowered close to vertical, instead of shoulder height. KK Barrel vertical, wouldn't that be straight up or down. I think it means gun about parallel to the ground but where positioned vertically is totally up to the RO it would appear. One time it is at shotgun belt height, other times it is below holster belt level. Would be nice to not use such undefined terms and just tell the shooter to hold gun with both hands with barrel pointing below rear berm IF there were a safety issue beyond the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Yet another reason for Stage Writers to spell out non-standard starting positions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 All of the questions and talk is why a good stage writer will never start shotgun port arms. Try holding a double barrel butt of gun at or below waist and barrels above shoulder. Tell me the pump gun shooters don't have an advantage. The best port arms starting position with a long gun is butt stock touching gun leather (holster or gun belt not shotgun belt.) With the butt stock position defined who cares where the muzzle starts. With the stock position defined it is more equal for everybody. Long gun in hand is the most pathetic and uncreative starting position I've ever seen. I was told this starting position was created because matches couldn't police the port arms starting position. If we've gotten to that point in this sport and this is the best answer then we are all in trouble. If you have a range that you have to start stages with no prop for staging your long gun you can get creative and come up with things to do to start the stage with a long that is fair to everybody and not so boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 We use it at a range I go to because a highway is behind the range and they don't want to take a chance of a round over the berm, the starting position is basically butt stock at waist and barrel lowered close to vertical, instead of shoulder height. KK That's what I see at a few ranges out my way. I have quit writing stages with any kind of port arms. I just say 'rifle in hand pointed safely down range' which lets the shooter decide. Obviously most have it on their shoulder pointed at the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Never Mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Barrel vertical, wouldn't that be straight up or down. I think it means gun about parallel to the ground but where positioned vertically is totally up to the RO it would appear. One time it is at shotgun belt height, other times it is below holster belt level. Would be nice to not use such undefined terms and just tell the shooter to hold gun with both hands with barrel pointing below rear berm IF there were a safety issue beyond the targets. Yep was typing to fast thanks for the clarification. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 pointed downrange? Pointed to the side? I too have had this position explained to me differently each time. The 170 rule would apply here as in any other situation. Common sense would conclude that it would be to the shooters advantage to have the rifle pointed generally in the direction of the target. Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Stage conventions 11. Cowboy port arms is defined as standing fully erect "fully erect", I see many that don't even understand this portion. Some of the positions of a shooter look like they're readying for a bayonet charge. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 We use it at a range I go to because a highway is behind the range and they don't want to take a chance of a round over the berm, the starting position is basically butt stock at waist and barrel lowered close to vertical, instead of shoulder height.KK +1 we have houses that have encroached the property around our range over the years so we do it for the extra safety factor too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassalong Hopidy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I have done a fair amount of RO-ing and have to agree with those who say that both "Cowboy Port Arms" and "Low Port Arms" leave a lot to be desired definitionally. Not only is the "fully erect" command for CPA routinely ignored as MT states (and virtually impossible to enforce), but the "held in both hands" position is regularly interpreted to allow the forward hand to rest under, rather than grip, the forearm. I have seen some ROs insist that the butt touch leather (not expressly in the definition) and about every muzzle height you can imagine-especially with doubles. I concur in Dubious Don's admonition --the stage writer needs to be explict as to position of gun and hands. Anything else virtually insures that competitors will assume a variety of positions--with the arguable result that the clock times are apples and oranges. Cassalong Hopidy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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