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Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L

Make the call!

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Everyone seems to be arguing intent here:

 

1. The instructions most likely intended to have the final sweep to start from the end, but didn't say so specificaly.

 

2. The shooter most likely intended to start on the end and sweep from right to left but got messed up (as is described by her confusion in the OP).

 

given the information at hand and based on not being able to know the intent of either 1 or 2, there is doubt and the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

I follow Philly's logic on this but that logic is based on the intent of the instructions and not the actual wording.

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OK, one more time from a slightly different direction...

I'm a computer programmer, sometimes when you have a bug one way to find it is to take away extra code and come up with the smallest amount of code that will replicate the problem, so, using that logic, here goes...

 

What is known and not in question - there are 5 targets.

 

With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction

With stage writing it is general practice to state direction if you want one, so if no direction is stated, it means either, so now we have the following...

 

With last 5 rounds sweep targets

 

So now we have 5 rounds to be shot at 5 targets, we seem to all agree on that.

 

What we are left with is "sweep." No specific type of sweep was stated, so a 'standard sweep' can be assumed.

 

Some seem to think that a 'standard sweep' means something other than shooting the targets in order starting from either end. I don't.

 

Grizz

PS, looking back at the OP quoted below I noticed that the shooter in question shot it 4, 3, 2, 1, 5, and not the 3, 2, 1, 5, 4 that I referenced in several posts, I was wrong about that, but stick with my reasoning for why it was a P.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols

in any combination and in any order, putting ONE

round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE

rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE

rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

I was the TO and helped a shooter through on this one. She used her rifle and then pistol to properly complete the first 15 rds. She used her second pistol for the sweep and before I could coach her shot the targets starting on R/P4, then R/P3, then R/P2, then R/P1. She was now hesitating and I had her swing over to shoot R/P5 which she did. No misses

 

...

(highlighting added)

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Some seem to think that a 'standard sweep' means something other than shooting the targets in order starting from either end. I don't.

 

 

And here inlays the crux of the disagreement. I agree with the in order but don't necessarily agree with "starting from either end".

 

I see it more as a circular pattern or clockwise and counter clockwise motion.

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Show me the rule that says a nevada sweep is engaging the targets in a back and forth sweep.

 

Stan

[/quote) There is no such rule, that's why it has to be explained every-time!!

Same with an sweep in either direction...if you need it to start on an end ,say so. PS: Any P given on a Nevada sweep would be "failure to follow stage instructions".

But stage instructions would have to be given, including a starting point!!

Or you could start anywhere you want!!

If I were to say "on the 3 pistol targets, shoot a Nevada sweep"...could I than give you a P for not starting were I did?

 

BH

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OK, one more time from a slightly different direction...

I'm a computer programmer, sometimes when you have a bug one way to find it is to take away extra code and come up with the smallest amount of code that will replicate the problem, so, using that logic, here goes...

 

What is known and not in question - there are 5 targets.

 

With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction

With stage writing it is general practice to state direction if you want one, so if no direction is stated, it means either, so now we have the following...

 

With last 5 rounds sweep targets

 

So now we have 5 rounds to be shot at 5 targets, we seem to all agree on that.

 

What we are left with is "sweep." No specific type of sweep was stated, so a 'standard sweep' can be assumed.

 

Some seem to think that a 'standard sweep' means something other than shooting the targets in order starting from either end. I don't.

 

Grizz

PS, looking back at the OP quoted below I noticed that the shooter in question shot it 4, 3, 2, 1, 5, and not the 3, 2, 1, 5, 4 that I referenced in several posts, I was wrong about that, but stick with my reasoning for why it was a P.

 

(highlighting added)

 

 

Well Gents this has been interesting. Seems the old rule applies - as far as opinions go everyone has one. I really should not have expected a definitive answer and I think most of us could agree (maybe) that there isn't one. What I did learn from all the answers is that there are different ways to look at the stage write-ups and to think "outside the box" when it comes to interpretation and intent.

 

Grizz - I can tell you while running the Timer at this event after two days I saw several people take advantage of the shooters choice for target selection and saw some new "sweeps" I had not seen before and a few are worthy of their own name for sure!! A lot of shooters don't care one bit about the timer running and are looking only to get as much fun out of shooting as they can and God bless em. Now for the shooter in question for this post, I can tell you that no one lost the Cadillac as a result thereof, nor was anyone cheated out of a rank point that would have made any difference. I can tell you the smile on her face when I told her "clean" made my day.

 

Thank you to all that posted!

Colt

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If you can end a "Sweep" on a target other then an end target, you can start a "Sweep" on a target other then an end target.

 

Sweep 4 targets with 10 rifle - no double taps...either direction.

 

Come on, Sweeping doesn't HAVE to start on an end target unless it's stated to do so. Stop trying to take all the fun and creativity from this game.

 

OY!

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

 

exactly!

 

 

If I see "Sweep targets from right to left", my mind tells me that's a singular instruction (Perform one sweep in one direction) and therefore I should start from the right end target.

 

On the other hand, if the stage writer wants me to start from any other position or gives me the option to start from any other position, I'd hope they'd put that in the instructions.

 

simply because YOUR mind dint choose it doesnt make it wrong.

 

OK, one more time from a slightly different direction...

I'm a computer programmer, sometimes when you have a bug one way to find it is to take away extra code and come up with the smallest amount of code that will replicate the problem, so, using that logic, here goes...

 

What is known and not in question - there are 5 targets.

 

With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction

With stage writing it is general practice to state direction if you want one, so if no direction is stated, it means either, so now we have the following...

 

With last 5 rounds sweep targets

 

So now we have 5 rounds to be shot at 5 targets, we seem to all agree on that.

 

What we are left with is "sweep." No specific type of sweep was stated, so a 'standard sweep' can be assumed.

 

Some seem to think that a 'standard sweep' means something other than shooting the targets in order starting from either end. I don't.

 

Grizz

PS, looking back at the OP quoted below I noticed that the shooter in question shot it 4, 3, 2, 1, 5, and not the 3, 2, 1, 5, 4 that I referenced in several posts, I was wrong about that, but stick with my reasoning for why it was a P.

 

(highlighting added)

maybe when you get a bit more experience, you will.

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Some of you are gonna hate me for this but, I might have just changed my mind.

 

Stage instructions: "With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction"

 

As I stated in an earlier post, there are dozens of different types of sweeps. Since the stage instructions don't specify what type of sweep, it's pretty much up to the shooter to do whatever he wants.

 

 

You can go ahead and start calling me Mike because I'm drivin' myself MADDDDDD :wacko:

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Some of you are gonna hate me for this but, I might have just changed my mind.

 

Stage instructions: "With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction"

 

As I stated in an earlier post, there are dozens of different types of sweeps. Since the stage instructions don't specify what type of sweep, it's pretty much up to the shooter to do whatever he wants.

 

 

You can go ahead and start calling me Mike because I'm drivin' myself MADDDDDD :wacko:

Well ya put up a good argument and ya spoke your mind!!

What else could anyone do?

Even thou ya was wrong :P .

Now iffin we can get ya ta get off that swingin your Dang gun back is a P.

Been sittin here trying ta figure out how I was ever gonna to shoot 2 sweeps of 5 targets with a rifle again!!

I always go left to right 1,2,3,4,5...1,2,3,4,5. Couldn't figure out how I was gonna get back to target 1 without swingin the rifle right to left!!

 

BH :D

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exactly!

 

 

 

 

simply because YOUR mind dint choose it doesnt make it wrong.

 

 

maybe when you get a bit more experience, you will.

 

Lets not get personal, ok?

 

I often shoot things in odd ways when the stage scenario allows it. In your mind this one does, fine. In mine and other's it doesn't fine. If PWB or the RO commitee makes a ruling one way or the other, I'll abide by it, until then I will play by the rules, and call penalties by the rules as I understand them.

 

BH, I guess you and I agree to disagree on this one.

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Some of you are gonna hate me for this but, I might have just changed my mind.

 

Stage instructions: "With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction"

 

As I stated in an earlier post, there are dozens of different types of sweeps. Since the stage instructions don't specify what type of sweep, it's pretty much up to the shooter to do whatever he wants.

 

 

You can go ahead and start calling me Mike because I'm drivin' myself MADDDDDD :wacko:

 

In fact there are few sweeps they could do to put 5 rounds on 5 targets hitting them each once. There are several, and different ways of doing it, it all depends on your definition.

 

But ya thought about it and made up yer mind, can't fault cha for that.

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I for one hate stages that are written shooters choice. Thats tha "IN" thing, well my problem is if tha shooters got any juice to him or her and they start in tha middle for a so called sweep on 5 targets well tha spotters are most likely lookin at target 1 or 5 for tha first shot and by tha second shot they have no idea where tha shooter is shooting! And tha RO sure as heck can't help with tha shooting order if he jacks one out. I like it when we are told how to do it where ta do it and how many times to do it!!

 

 

RRR

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Well Gents this has been interesting. Seems the old rule applies - as far as opinions go everyone has one. I really should not have expected a definitive answer and I think most of us could agree (maybe) that there isn't one. What I did learn from all the answers is that there are different ways to look at the stage write-ups and to think "outside the box" when it comes to interpretation and intent.

 

Grizz - I can tell you while running the Timer at this event after two days I saw several people take advantage of the shooters choice for target selection and saw some new "sweeps" I had not seen before and a few are worthy of their own name for sure!! A lot of shooters don't care one bit about the timer running and are looking only to get as much fun out of shooting as they can and God bless em. Now for the shooter in question for this post, I can tell you that no one lost the Cadillac as a result thereof, nor was anyone cheated out of a rank point that would have made any difference. I can tell you the smile on her face when I told her "clean" made my day.

 

Thank you to all that posted!

Colt

 

Colt - I love stages that allow creativity and fun sequences. But for the TO's, the spotters, and the shooters sakes stage instructions should be clear so that all posse's and shooter's have the same opportunity to shoot it with the same options.

 

As I said in my first post (IIRC) I'd have called a P, if over rules I'd let it go after explaining why and getting an explanation why I was over ruled. I go to matches to have fun, not to argue rules.

 

Take care

Grizz

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I often shoot things in odd ways when the stage scenario allows it. In your mind this one does, fine. In mine and other's it doesn't fine. If PWB or the RO commitee makes a ruling one way or the other, I'll abide by it, until then I will play by the rules, and call penalties by the rules as I understand them.

 

BH, I guess you and I agree to disagree on this one.

Well Dave that's perfectly fine!!

We should always go by the rules.

Two procedural penalties could apply to the OP scenario.

1.Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

2.Engaging the stage (firearms,targets or stage maneuver) in an order other than as required by stage description.

As you can see both rules require a stage description.

 

"Stage instructions: "With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction."

Looks kinda open to me and I think that was the idea "out of the box".

There is no written target order, only assumptions.

BH

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I for one hate stages that are written shooters choice. Thats tha "IN" thing, well my problem is if tha shooters got any juice to him or her and they start in tha middle for a so called sweep on 5 targets well tha spotters are most likely lookin at target 1 or 5 for tha first shot and by tha second shot they have no idea where tha shooter is shooting! And tha RO sure as heck can't help with tha shooting order if he jacks one out. I like it when we are told how to do it where ta do it and how many times to do it!!

 

 

RRR

 

And once again - we agree.

Now I do write some shooters choice stages from time to time simply because shooters will see them at other shoots and they need to understand how to think their way thru them.

But, when the match is predominantly shooters choice stages - comparing scores becomes less meaningful because everyone did not shoot the same match.

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Yup, heard of them, and yup, you could do that. But in the scenario presented it is the last 5 shots that are to be expending by 'sweep P1 - P5 either direction' and the shooter shot it P3, P2, P1, P5, P4, that is not a Nevada sweep.

 

A Nevada sweep on a 5 target array starting in the middle would be P3, P2, P1, P2, P3 and would earn the shooter a P as P4 and P5 were not engaged.

Dave,

I just reread the instructions and it doesn’t say anything about sweeping targets P1-P5 from either direction, all it says is sweep the five targets No Call- No P

Respectfully

Jasper

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Jasper, go back to the original post in this thread on page one, that is what I'm going off of.

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Well ya put up a good argument and ya spoke your mind!!

What else could anyone do?

Even thou ya was wrong :P .

Now iffin we can get ya ta get off that swingin your Dang gun back is a P.

Been sittin here trying ta figure out how I was ever gonna to shoot 2 sweeps of 5 targets with a rifle again!!

I always go left to right 1,2,3,4,5...1,2,3,4,5. Couldn't figure out how I was gonna get back to target 1 without swingin the rifle right to left!!

 

BH :D

 

 

Uh oh, now you're trying to get me to move back to my original opinion.

 

You CAN'T do two sweeps of five targets without moving your rifle back to the beginning position but, that's got nothing to do with the original argument. We're talking about ONE sweep in ONE direction. If you shoot 3-2-1-5-4, you went right to left, back to the right and then finally to the left. You get a P.

 

Finally, I'm utterly confused about your and Creeker's assertion that the gun's got nothing to do with this. When the stage instructions dictate direction of engagement, what's moving? It sure isn't the targets. You might answer that the direction is for the order of target engagement. Okay, engagement with WHAT?

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Jasper, go back to the original post in this thread on page one, that is what I'm going off of.

Dave,

Yep, heres the quote "With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction"

If the stage descriptions are not spelled out then we owe it to the shooter to quote my buddy Dutch Dalton “ think outside the box”. If we don’t we are doing a serious disservice to the shooter. It’s the stage writer’s job to make his intent known not for us to try to interpret what the writer’s intent was.

Jasper

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A good GF would have been in 7th Heaven on a stage like this. Starting with left pistol and alternating for 10 pistol shots, it would have looked like this:

 

P1 P3 P2 P3 P2 P3 P4 P4 P4 P4

 

I say its a NO CALL on what the shooter did.

 

EDIT: can the phrase 'either direction' imply 'both directions' if the shooter so decides?

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

I would have given you a P..for shooting the stage .P1 P3 P2 P3 P2 P3 P4 P4 P4 P4...giving you the benefit of doubt that you had a brain fart just forgot to shoot P/R5 and not doing a failure to engage :rolleyes:

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"With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction."

 

Five rounds left to put on 5 targets...one round per target.

 

"...from either direction." = TWO choices (from the LEFT to the RIGHT OR from the RIGHT to the LEFT) which, IMO,

implies starting on ONE END of the target array or the other & engaging the targets by SWEEPING across to the other end.

 

The TYPE of "sweep" not being specified (e.g. Nevada, IRS, &tc)...the default (again IMO) should be a simple L>R or R>L.

 

PWB

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Five rounds left to put on 5 targets...one round per target.

 

"...from either direction." = TWO choices (from the LEFT to the RIGHT OR from the RIGHT to the LEFT) which, IMO,

implies starting on ONE END of the target array or the other & engaging the targets by SWEEPING across to the other end.

 

The TYPE of "sweep" not being specified (e.g. Nevada, IRS, &tc)...the default (again IMO) should be a simple L>R or R>L.

 

PWB

 

Is this a...rule?

 

Come on PWB, Direction is one aspect of the sweep, Starting position is another. If you WANT them to start on the end, say so.

 

Or are we truly so dependent that we must have everything spelled out for us...that creativity...is a thing of the past. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know if someone is sweeping from one direction and starts on target 2, then 3, 4, 5, that he/she will have to go back to one to complete the sweep...and their direction was left to right.

 

But hey, I'm not all that smart.

 

;)

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Is this a...rule?

 

Come on PWB, Direction is one aspect of the sweep, Starting position is another. If you WANT them to start on the end, say so.

 

Or are we truly so dependent that we must have everything spelled out for us...that creativity...is a thing of the past. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know if someone is sweeping from one direction and starts on target 2, then 3, 4, 5, that he/she will have to go back to one to complete the sweep...and their direction was left to right.

 

But hey, I'm not all that smart.

 

;)

 

NO...it's NOT a "rule"...I was stating an OPINION (thus the multiple "IMO"s) ;) , given the lack of rulebook definition of what constitutes a five-round "sweep" on five targets.

Given the TWO choices, that's how I read the stage directions...from one end to the other.

It would certainly have been MUCH clearer if written "...starting on either end."

It may have been the intent of the stage writer (or not) to rely on that being understood.

 

IMO

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Uh oh, now you're trying to get me to move back to my original opinion.

 

You CAN'T do two sweeps of five targets without moving your rifle back to the beginning position but, that's got nothing to do with the original argument. We're talking about ONE sweep in ONE direction. If you shoot 3-2-1-5-4, you went right to left, back to the right and then finally to the left. You get a P.

 

Finally, I'm utterly confused about your and Creeker's assertion that the gun's got nothing to do with this. When the stage instructions dictate direction of engagement, what's moving? It sure isn't the targets. You might answer that the direction is for the order of target engagement. Okay, engagement with WHAT?

I would hate to see you move back to your original opinion!!

You've come so far!!

"Engagement with what"...Bullets, I never throw my guns at the targets!!

Although I sometimes feel like it.

In your right to left scenario you move from T1 to T5 L to R, so you say that's a P.

So lets make my rifle scenario R to L also...two R to L sweeps 5,4,3,2,1...5,4,3,2,1.

I too must move from T1 to T5 L to R...if the guns movement is part of the engagement, I too would get a P for doing what I was asked to do!!

And that's the best I can explain it!!

BH

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Dave,

Yep, heres the quote "With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction"

If the stage descriptions are not spelled out then we owe it to the shooter to quote my buddy Dutch Dalton “ think outside the box”. If we don’t we are doing a serious disservice to the shooter. It’s the stage writer’s job to make his intent known not for us to try to interpret what the writer’s intent was.

Jasper

 

Jasper,

 

as I read this post and as a brand spanking new ROII my thoughts were the same as yours and called it clean...as the definition of "sweep" means to clean or clear and the definition of either is one or the other....now the stage writer did not give a starting point or for that mater say in a continuous sweep...left the stage open to as Dutch says "think outside the box" and have some fun with the stage...so as written and if it was not not discussed and clarified before the stage it would be left up to the shooter as to were to start and what way to go ...so starting on 4 and circling back to 5 is a good sweep.....I just woder how a GF feeling his oats would have shot it :)

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It would certainly have been MUCH clearer if written "...starting on either end."

It may have been the intent of the stage writer (or not) to rely on that being understood.

 

IMO

 

Exactly..."it may have been", (an in my opinion probably was the intent of the stage writer) but not being able to judge intent we just don't know, therefore without knowing, the benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter.

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I'd have called a "P". Wouldn't care if it was over ruled, though. However, if one posse scores a "P" and another does not, then you've got a true problem. Vague stage writing or "philadelphia lawyering" creates the problem. The simplest interpretation(but only one interpretation) is that from either direction means from either end. OR, as someone mentioned "from either direction" means only one direction; "from the left to the right" or "from the right to the left", but not both directions.

 

Final analysis, pick an interpretation and assess or don't assess penalties for all shooters on all posses the same as needed.

 

Next shooter...

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There is no default "sweep". There are many different sweeps. We are shooters not mind readers. If a stage writer wants us to "sweep" in a certain manner, then it must be spelled out. Otherwise the shooter is free to "interpret" on his own.

 

The sweep was not defined adequately to make it carved in stone that it had to be 5-4-3-2-1 OR 1-2-3-4-5, therefore and thusly the shooter is clean.

 

No P.

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Remove one of the TWO choices in the OP.

 

"Sweep the five targets from LEFT to RIGHT".

 

So that means any of the following orders of engagement would be acceptable (as no starting point is specified)?:

 

1-2-3-4-5

5-1-2-3-4

3-4-1-2-3 (edit: s/b 3-4-5-1-2) :blush:

2-4-1-3-5

 

?

:unsure:

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Remove one of the TWO choices in the OP.

 

"Sweep the five targets from LEFT to RIGHT".

 

So that means any of the following orders of engagement would be acceptable (as no starting point is specified)?:

 

1-2-3-4-5

5-1-2-3-4

3-4-1-2-3

2-4-1-3-5

 

?

:unsure:

 

Actually, yes for the first two. A plain "Sweep" is one after the other...no skipping. The fact that you can go back isn't considered skipping...you could go 4-5-1-2-3...or 3-4-5-1-2...etc.

 

Isn't it grand that we have a game that allows creativity?

 

;)

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Actually, yes for the first two. A plain "Sweep" is one after the other...no skipping. The fact that you can go back isn't considered skipping...you could go 4-5-1-2-3...or 3-4-5-1-2...etc.

 

Isn't it grand that we have a game that allows creativity?

 

;)

 

 

Individuality, yeah verily, thought even!!!

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I would hate to see you move back to your original opinion!!

You've come so far!!

"Engagement with what"...Bullets, I never throw my guns at the targets!!

Although I sometimes feel like it.

In your right to left scenario you move from T1 to T5 L to R, so you say that's a P.

So lets make my rifle scenario R to L also...two R to L sweeps 5,4,3,2,1...5,4,3,2,1.

I too must move from T1 to T5 L to R...if the guns movement is part of the engagement, I too would get a P for doing what I was asked to do!!

And that's the best I can explain it!!

BH

 

You keep interjecting TWO sweeps, that's comparing apples and handgrenades. We're not talking about two sweeps, we're talking about ONE sweep, either from right to left or left to right. If you are in the process of shooting ONE sweep from right to left and you move from T1 on the far left to T5 on the far right, that's a P.

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So if I am going FROM Los Angeles TO Kansas City I can start in Denver, go thru Limon, Salina, Topeka, Kansas City the jump back to Los Angeles?

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