Artic Fox, SASS# 39883 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Colt, Here's a probable "first" for "What's the Call". The stage in question, viewed from a hat cam, one of your pards, "The Boy". It is Stage 8, located at time 4:06. Artic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Blood Washed: about 5-10 seconds. I love mixing em up. Goody: yes, that is an excellent way and probably preferred by most GFer's. But I really like splitting my pistols and in most cases, anytime I can engage targets in the manner I listed, I split em up. In my example, Left pistol only moves to engage 3 targets (P1, P2, P4) and Right pistol only has to move to engage 2 targets (P3, P4). But, thats just me. Best regards ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Seems to me that "Either" would indicate that you had to choose ONE direction(Either Left to Right or Right to Left).......otherwise it would say from "Both" directions. I'm all for giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt but the fact is that folks screw up and EARN penalties. When we don't give apply them then we are doing two things...... 1. Penalizing all the other shooters that did shoot it correctly 2. Setting the stage for that particular shooter to get upset when they are somewhere else and get called for it....."Well they don't call it like that back home". More and More I see calls not being made......sometimes from lack of knowledge of the rules and sometimes not wanting to be the "bad guy". We should encourage everyone to take the RO1 course and WE should endeavor to make ALL the calls.......In my mind the "bad guy" is the one that doesn't penalize the shooter and allows them to continue doing things wrong. Stan - who would have called a "P" So are you saying all sweeps must start on an end target!! How about "sweep the five targets, from either direction,starting on the center target" I take it that would be an impossible task!!How about 3,4,5,1,2 or 3,2,1,5,4. Both of those sequences are in one direction. No starting point was give...shooters choice.The whole scenario was encouraging doing it in different ways!! Her sweep 4,3,2,1,5 is in one direction. In the very least there is the rule "doubt goes to the shooter" not "doubt goes to everyone shooting against the shooter" The "I wouldn't shoot it that way" confusion, doesn't earn her a P!!! BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 So are you saying all sweeps must start on an end target!! NO that would be a retarded statement! How about "sweep the five targets, from either direction,starting on the center target" I take it that would be an impossible task!!How about 3,4,5,1,2 or 3,2,1,5,4. Both of those sequences are in one direction. Obviously the stage instructions you gave call for starting on a target other then an end target. No starting point was give...shooters choice.The whole scenario was encouraging doing it in different ways!! Her sweep 4,3,2,1,5 is in one direction. This is where we disagree.....starting on the right sweeping left then sweeping all the way back to the right to engage the last target is not 1 direction. In the very least there is the rule "doubt goes to the shooter" not "doubt goes to everyone shooting against the shooter" The "I wouldn't shoot it that way" confusion, doesn't earn her a P!!! Bottom line is that the Match Director at THAT particular match would have the final call as to what the stage called for. You can disagree with me all you want and you can claim benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter BUT if you apply the meaning of the words as written it is difficult to come up with any other call then "P". BH Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Around here. Think most places. That would be a P. As pointed out. Either direction. Which to me would be left to right. Or right to left. She went from left to right and then back left again. Think sometimes we try to hard to find a way to NOT give a shooter a P. Finding anything we can to hang onto to have to not call something. The shooter knows they screwed it up. I would take my P and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 If you can end a "Sweep" on a target other then an end target, you can start a "Sweep" on a target other then an end target. Sweep 4 targets with 10 rifle - no double taps...either direction. Come on, Sweeping doesn't HAVE to start on an end target unless it's stated to do so. Stop trying to take all the fun and creativity from this game. OY! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Stan- This is where we disagree.....starting on the right sweeping left then sweeping all the way back to the right to engage the last target is not 1 direction Really!! Than educate me!! How would you shoot any sweep right to left, that starts on any target other than an end target. BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 If you can end a "Sweep" on a target other then an end target, you can start a "Sweep" on a target other then an end target. Sweep 4 targets with 10 rifle - no double taps...either direction. Come on, Sweeping doesn't HAVE to start on an end target unless it's stated to do so. Stop trying to take all the fun and creativity from this game. OY! Phantom In the overall scheme of things I absolutely agree with you, don't EVER limit the possibilities of how things can be done. That would only serve to limit the amount of fun we can have. But in this specific instance I'm not so sure. The stage instructions state to sweep for EITHER direction. To me "either" is a singular instruction. It implies one OR the other. The shooter shot four targets in one direction then reversed and moved in the opposite direction to pick up the fifth. That's two, not one. As I stated earlier, my initial call would be a P for the above stated reason but, I wouldn't argue the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 In the overall scheme of things I absolutely agree with you, don't EVER limit the possibilities of how things can be done. That would only serve to limit the amount of fun we can have. But in this specific instance I'm not so sure. The stage instructions state to sweep for EITHER direction. To me "either" is a singular instruction. It implies one OR the other. The shooter shot four targets in one direction then reversed and moved in the opposite direction to pick up the fifth. That's two, not one. As I stated earlier, my initial call would be a P for the above stated reason but, I wouldn't argue the issue. I'm not Phantom, but I have a question. How would you shoot any sweep in either direction that doesn't start on an end target? Moving right to left, you must go back to target 5 to complete your sweep. Moving left to right, you must go back to target 1 to complete your sweep. BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I'm not Phantom, but I have a question. How would you shoot any sweep in either direction that doesn't start on an end target? Moving right to left, you must go back to target 5 to complete your sweep. Moving left to right, you must go back to target 1 to complete your sweep. BH If I see "Sweep targets from right to left", my mind tells me that's a singular instruction (Perform one sweep in one direction) and therefore I should start from the right end target. On the other hand, if the stage writer wants me to start from any other position or gives me the option to start from any other position, I'd hope they'd put that in the instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 If I see "Sweep targets from right to left", my mind tells me that's a singular instruction (Perform one sweep in one direction) and therefore I should start from the right end target. (So would I, easiest = fastest and less chance ta screw up!! But does "right to left" dictate which target you must start on when no starting point is given? Must everyone think alike or get a P?) On the other hand, if the stage writer wants me to start from any other position or gives me the option to start from any other position, I'd hope they'd put that in the instructions. The OP's scenario (either direction, any order)seems to be giving many options, until we get to "sweep the five targets in either direction". Still no starting point!! But now all options are gone some how!! But this still does not answer the question. How can you shoot any sweep in either direction that does not start on an end target? If it's "sweep the 5 targets in either direction, starting on the center target" Right to left would be T3, T2, T1...are we now going to get a P, because we must swing our gun from left to right to complete the sweep shooting T5, T4. BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 The OP's scenario (either direction, any order)seems to be giving many options, until we get to "sweep the five targets in either direction". Still no starting point!! But now all options are gone some how!! But this still does not answer the question. How can you shoot any sweep in either direction that does not start on an end target? If it's "sweep the 5 targets in either direction, starting on the center target" Right to left would be T3, T2, T1...are we now going to get a P, because we must swing our gun from left to right to complete the sweep shooting T5, T4. BH It can't even be written as a continuous sweep, starting on the middle target, as that would have you doing P3 - P2 - P1 - P2 - P3, thus leaving P4 and P5 un-engaged. About the only way I can think to write it would be 'engage P1 - P5 with one round each in any order.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Howdy Pards, After 12 years of going on the implication that a sweep starts on an end, unless stated otherwise, and never seen it done another way, I guess things have changed in some places. How "special." Regards, Allie Mo PS Hubby says it never occured to him either; but, he would not give a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Really!! Than educate me!! How would you shoot any sweep right to left, that starts on any target other than an end target. BH I would say that's NOT sweeping the targets from either direction........ Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 But this still does not answer the question. How can you shoot any sweep in either direction that does not start on an end target? If it's "sweep the 5 targets in either direction, starting on the center target" Right to left would be T3, T2, T1...are we now going to get a P, because we must swing our gun from left to right to complete the sweep shooting T5, T4. Bad Hombre, You've asked this question several times, trying to make a point that not all sweeps begin on an end target. So...here goes. You are absolutely correct. Are you happy now? What you fail to understand, or maybe you are just baiting someone, is the QUALIFYING PHRASE OF INSTRUCTION. In your stated example, that phrase is "...starting on the center target." In my part of the SASS world, GENERALLY speaking, a SWEEP begins on an end target. That said, the basic definition of a sweep can be MODIFIED with a qualifying phrase of instruction, which is what you are adding and repeatedly trying to argue the point. Seems like you are trying to compare apples and oranges, as it were. Again, in this part of the country a SWEEP, by definition, begins at an end target. Guess we get that from the common sense rule of the origin of the word sweep, as in sweeping the floor. I don't know of many folks who sweep the floor starting in the middle and working out to the edges of the room. Instead, they start at one end and go all the way across. Simple. So, in your example, YES it is possible to start in the middle and sweep the targets BECAUSE THE INSTRUCTIONS STATED SUCH. Without those specific instructions, however, you'd get a P every time in this part of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 The OP's scenario (either direction, any order) But that's another area that's under review, did the "any order" apply to the final 5 round sweep? The way I read it, no. All it says is, "With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 If you saw a stage direction that said "using the final five rounds, sweep the five targets from either direction starting on the second from the right target" would it confuse you or would you assume a sweep would continue on the other side when one direction was complete? Cheers, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Really!! Than educate me!! How would you shoot any sweep right to left, that starts on any target other than an end target. BH Very simple. The direction of a sweep means the order of the targets - NOT the movement of the gun. Sweep RIGHT to LEFT Shooter starts on target 2. T2 - T1 (right to left) Shooter continues sweeping on the available targets T5 - T4 - T3 (right to left) The movement of the gun does not matter. Every shot placed on a target was followed up by another to the LEFT of the preceding target. When the shooter runs out of targets to the left - they continue, starting on furthermost RIGHT target of the available targets. It is sorta like typing - everyone will agree that (in the english language), our printed word goes left to right. Every sentence does not HAVE to begin at the far left margin and if the sentence continues on further than the right margin, we return to the left margin to continue and complete our sentence. And no one would argue that simply because your typewriter carriage went leftward to get to the left margin that your sentence went both left AND right. Only the results on the page count, just as only the rounds on target count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Very simple. The direction of a sweep means the order of the targets - NOT the movement of the gun. Sweep RIGHT to LEFT Shooter starts on target 2. T2 - T1 (right to left) Shooter continues sweeping on the available targets T5 - T4 - T3 (right to left) The movement of the gun does not matter. Every shot placed on a target was followed up by another to the LEFT of the preceding target.When the shooter runs out of targets to the left - they continue, starting on furthermost RIGHT target of the available targets. It is sorta like typing - everyone will agree that (in the english language), our printed word goes left to right. Every sentence does not HAVE to begin at the far left margin and if the sentence continues on further than the right margin, we return to the left margin to continue and complete our sentence. And no one would argue that simply because your typewriter carriage went leftward to get to the left margin that your sentence went both left AND right. Only the results on the page count, just as only the rounds on target count. Nope. You moved from shooting T1 and then shot T5, that's movement to the RIGHT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Nope. You moved from shooting T1 and then shot T5, that's movement to the RIGHT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Wow. shocked that this thread is still going.....Summa you people..... The steering wheel in my car turns in EITHER direction. In this case either does not mean ONLY left or ONLY right. It turns equally well EITHER way. I have a porch that adjoins the house. The best way to SWEEP the porcch is from the door; which is in the middle...going out. So in this case, the SWEEP begins in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Nope. You moved from shooting T1 and then shot T5, that's movement to the RIGHT. The movement of the gun is immaterial. Show me how the available TARGETS were not swept RIGHT to LEFT. T5-T4-T3-T2-T1 is right to left. So is T4-T3-T2-T1-T5 as is T3-T2-T1-T5-T4 as is T2-T1-T5-T4-T3 as is T1-T5-T4-T3-T2 Five rounds to engage five targets. The OP says from either direction - It does not say in order. So by using your five rounds to engage the five targets, as long as you engage the available target to you in a right to left (or left to right) sweep - you have fulfilled the requirement of the stage. Once you hit T3 - that target is no longer available for striking. The only target you can hit from there is T2, then T1. Once those targets are gone - the only remaining targets are T5 and then T4. ALL engaged Right to Left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 3-2-1-5-4 is not a sweep in either direction, it is two sweeps. Just give me the P and lets move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 3-2-1-5-4 is not a sweep in either direction, it is two sweeps. Just give me the P and lets move on. Now, who will give me a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 The movement of the gun is immaterial. Show me how the available TARGETS were not swept RIGHT to LEFT. T5-T4-T3-T2-T1 is right to left. So is T4-T3-T2-T1-T5 as is T3-T2-T1-T5-T4 as is T2-T1-T5-T4-T3 as is T1-T5-T4-T3-T2 Five rounds to engage five targets. The OP says from either direction - It does not say in order. So by using your five rounds to engage the five targets, as long as you engage the available target to you in a right to left (or left to right) sweep - you have fulfilled the requirement of the stage. Yer blowin' my mind with this: "The movement of the gun is immaterial." Then what in the Wide Wide World of Sports are you hitting the targets with, rocks??? Here, I'll use just one of your examples: T4-T3-T2-T1-T5 In this case T5 is to the RIGHT of T1. That, by definition, is left to right movement. Once you hit T3 - that target is no longer available for striking. The only target you can hit from there is T2, then T1. Once those targets are gone - the only remaining targets are T5 and then T4. ALL engaged Right to Left. That is patently false, they were NOT all engaged right to left. You hit T1 and THEN you hit T5, that is left to right. As far as "The OP says from either direction - It does not say in order." A sweep IS an order. We have a Nevada Sweep, a Badger Sweep, a Rattlesnake sweep and even the world famous Creeker sweep. They all specify an order. If no order is needed then the stage instructions say, "In any order". Admittedly, there's some discussion as to whether or not that was said in this case but, as written I don't believe it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Very, Very Interesting. For those of you that say "no call", would your call be the same if the shooter had shot the last five in an "in 'n' out" sweep? I.e.: 3, 2, 4 1, 5. If so, I laude you on your adherence to Rule # 4 in the ROI manual. But, I hafta say, if the stage directions would have said "engage last five shots in any sweep," I'd agree with you. But, with the "from either direction," direction, it's clear as molasses that allows only two choices of sweeps, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; or, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. From a shooter's standpoint, great stage, lots of options, and unfortunately, this shooter found one of very few ways to get a "P". However, as a famous person once said, there's not amount of explaining something in English, that it can't be mis-interpreted, especially to another English speaker. (Ok, maybe not so famous, otherwise I could remember who to quote)! Goody, nice take on the GF sequence... I like it. "Either" is not "both". If the old man points a shotgun at you and says, "You are gonna marry either Kate or Lizzie!", you better not assume he meant both. It's a "P" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 "Either" is not "both". If the old man points a shotgun at you and says, "You are gonna marry either Kate or Lizzie!", you better not assume he meant both. It's a "P" Got one! Regards, Allie Mo PS Philly, good post. Too elequent to about. It did deserve a though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 That's a good idea Noz, I'll be right back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 But this still does not answer the question. How can you shoot any sweep in either direction that does not start on an end target? If it's "sweep the 5 targets in either direction, starting on the center target" Right to left would be T3, T2, T1...are we now going to get a P, because we must swing our gun from left to right to complete the sweep shooting T5, T4. Bad Hombre, You've asked this question several times, trying to make a point that not all sweeps begin on an end target. So...here goes. You are absolutely correct. Are you happy now? What you fail to understand, or maybe you are just baiting someone, is the QUALIFYING PHRASE OF INSTRUCTION. In your stated example, that phrase is "...starting on the center target." In my part of the SASS world, GENERALLY speaking, a SWEEP begins on an end target. That said, the basic definition of a sweep can be MODIFIED with a qualifying phrase of instruction, which is what you are adding and repeatedly trying to argue the point. Seems like you are trying to compare apples and oranges, as it were. Again, in this part of the country a SWEEP, by definition, begins at an end target. Guess we get that from the common sense rule of the origin of the word sweep, as in sweeping the floor. I don't know of many folks who sweep the floor starting in the middle and working out to the edges of the room. Instead, they start at one end and go all the way across. Simple. So, in your example, YES it is possible to start in the middle and sweep the targets BECAUSE THE INSTRUCTIONS STATED SUCH. Without those specific instructions, however, you'd get a P every time in this part of the country. What you fail to understand is we go by rules, not what SASS world your in or what part of the country your in...that's the whole idea of "one set of rules". We give Ps for breaking the rules, not because ya did it different than we do!! So what rule states a sweep must start on an end target, unless an order is given or no order at all? BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 What you fail to understand is we go by rules, not what SASS world your in or what part of the country your in...that's the whole idea of "one set of rules". We give Ps for breaking the rules, not because ya did it different than we do!! So what rule states a sweep must start on an end target, unless an order is given or no order at all? BH Show me the rule that says a nevada sweep is engaging the targets in a back and forth sweep. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Dave, Ever hear of a Nevada sweep? It goes one way and another and then back again. If an instruction were to use first revolver to Nevada sweep three targets starting in the middle and going "either direction", it would hardly limit me to one direction..... Very Best Regards, BJT 3-2-1-5-4 is not a sweep in either direction, it is two sweeps. Just give me the P and lets move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 BH, Thanks, Santa Fe River Stan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Show me the rule that says a nevada sweep is engaging the targets in a back and forth sweep. Stan There is no such rule, that's why it has to be explaned every-time!! Same with an sweep in either direction...if you need it to start on an end ,say so!! BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 3-2-1-5-4 is not a sweep in either direction, it is two sweeps. Just give me the P and lets move on. Dave, Ever hear of a Nevada sweep? It goes one way and another and then back again. If an instruction were to use first revolver to Nevada sweep three targets starting in the middle and going "either direction", it would hardly limit me to one direction..... Very Best Regards, BJT Yup, heard of them, and yup, you could do that. But in the scenario presented it is the last 5 shots that are to be expending by 'sweep P1 - P5 either direction' and the shooter shot it P3, P2, P1, P5, P4, that is not a Nevada sweep. A Nevada sweep on a 5 target array starting in the middle would be P3, P2, P1, P2, P3 and would earn the shooter a P as P4 and P5 were not engaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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