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Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L

Make the call!

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A while back we had a thread which discussed if a "sweep" could start in the middle or not. I tried to search for that thread but no luck and cannot recall what the final result was.

 

Just got back from a match with a stage that had the regular 10-10-4 round count and there were 5 R/P targets going left to right. The relevant stage write-up was:

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols

in any combination and in any order, putting ONE

round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE

rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE

rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

I was the TO and helped a shooter through on this one. She used her rifle and then pistol to properly complete the first 15 rds. She used her second pistol for the sweep and before I could coach her shot the targets starting on R/P4, then R/P3, then R/P2, then R/P1. She was now hesitating and I had her swing over to shoot R/P5 which she did. No misses

 

Now since the instructions did not specifically say you had to shoot the sweep starting from the end but said sweep targets from either direction I did not give her a procedural and some felt it was since the sweep was not shot from the "end".

 

What say y'all??

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I agree with your call...

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+1 Good Call :)

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I would say a "P" since it says either end not any target. That to me would mean R/P 1 or R/P 5.

 

But some may disagree. After seeing Matt and turkey I reread and on the sweep you are correct says either direction. So I will change and go with no call.

 

Painted Filly

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Sounds like the stage writer wanted to give choices and left it up to the shooter.

 

As written, good call.

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IMO stage would have been better written to say "sweep starting from either end"

 

"With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction."

 

5 targets 5 rounds sweep "from either direction" certainly implies starting at one end to me.

 

YMMV

 

Grizz

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I would say a "P" since it says either end not any target. That to me would mean R/P 1 or R/P 5.....Filly

 

 

 

Actually it said from either direction....not either end.No P

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It was our match.......

 

Please note - it says in any combination and in any order. This is copied and pasted from our shooter booklet.

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols in any combination and in any order, putting ONE round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe. Pick up shotgun and engage the two shotgun targets closest to you. Move to the wagon and engage the last two shotgun targets. Shotgun make- ups must be made on first 2 targets before moving.

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A while back we had a thread which discussed if a "sweep" could start in the middle or not. I tried to search for that thread but no luck and cannot recall what the final result was.

 

Just got back from a match with a stage that had the regular 10-10-4 round count and there were 5 R/P targets going left to right. The relevant stage write-up was:

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols

in any combination and in any order, putting ONE

round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE

rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE

rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

I was the TO and helped a shooter through on this one. She used her rifle and then pistol to properly complete the first 15 rds. She used her second pistol for the sweep and before I could coach her shot the targets starting on R/P4, then R/P3, then R/P2, then R/P1. She was now hesitating and I had her swing over to shoot R/P5 which she did. No misses

 

Now since the instructions did not specifically say you had to shoot the sweep starting from the end but said sweep targets from either direction I did not give her a procedural and some felt it was since the sweep was not shot from the "end".

 

What say y'all??

 

 

Howdy.

its say either direction, direction means either left or right, it did not say any order so I think a P would be in order, also what was said at the walk thru?

 

KK

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A good GF would have been in 7th Heaven on a stage like this. Starting with left pistol and alternating for 10 pistol shots, it would have looked like this:

 

P1 P3 P2 P3 P2 P3 P4 P4 P4 P4

 

I say its a NO CALL on what the shooter did.

 

EDIT: can the phrase 'either direction' imply 'both directions' if the shooter so decides?

 

..........Widder

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It was our match.......

 

Please note - it says in any combination and in any order. This is copied and pasted from our shooter booklet.

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols in any combination and in any order, putting ONE round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe. Pick up shotgun and engage the two shotgun targets closest to you. Move to the wagon and engage the last two shotgun targets. Shotgun make- ups must be made on first 2 targets before moving.

 

 

I agree you said any combination and in any order for the first sequence, then you said with last 5 rounds sweep pistol from either direction, does the first statement apply to the last 5 targets, if so why did you tell the shooter to sweep from either direction which by definition doesn't mean any order.

 

KK

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I agree you said any combination and in any order for the first sequence, then you said with last 5 rounds sweep pistol from either direction, does the first statement apply to the last 5 targets, if so why did you tell the shooter to sweep from either direction which by definition doesn't mean any order.

 

KK

 

 

ps again what was said during walk thru.

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It was our match.......

 

Please note - it says in any combination and in any order. This is copied and pasted from our shooter booklet.

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols in any combination and in any order, putting ONE round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe. Pick up shotgun and engage the two shotgun targets closest to you. Move to the wagon and engage the last two shotgun targets. Shotgun make- ups must be made on first 2 targets before moving.

 

From the stage description, the "in any combination and in any order" clearly addresses the first 15 rounds ONLY as any additional rounds would result in the wrong number of shots on target. "With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction" tells you what to do with those 5 rounds. To me, I dissect that as follows:

FROM - a starting point

EITHER - one or the other, left or right

DIRECTION - orientation or the goal to which you are progressing

SWEEP - shoot in order

 

Put it together and to me it says starting at the left or right sweep thru the targets ending on the far side.

 

You can lawyer it to death, I'd probably call a P, but wouldn't argue the point if overruled.

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From the stage description, the "in any combination and in any order" clearly addresses the first 15 rounds ONLY as any additional rounds would result in the wrong number of shots on target. "With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction" tells you what to do with those 5 rounds. To me, I dissect that as follows:

FROM - a starting point

EITHER - one or the other, left or right

DIRECTION - orientation or the goal to which you are progressing

SWEEP - shoot in order

 

Put it together and to me it says starting at the left or right sweep thru the targets ending on the far side.

 

You can lawyer it to death, I'd probably call a P, but wouldn't argue the point if overruled.

 

What he said. ;)

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ps again what was said during walk thru.

 

 

Kiowa - this specific situation wasn't addressed during the walk thru - as you can appreciate not all are!

 

If the instructions had said "from either end" we wouldn't be discussing this. Thankfully, stages are written giving the shooter choices and when they do we get surprises. I wish I had remembered the results from the post originally addressing this situation but I didn't and still don't recall. Now it's a chance to learn. If anyone can refer us to that original thread that would be great or if they can recall the answer would be just as good. In the meantime I await a response from "The One" or better known as PWB.

Colt

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Kiowa - this specific situation wasn't addressed during the walk thru - as you can appreciate not all are!

 

If the instructions had said "from either end" we wouldn't be discussing this. Thankfully, stages are written giving the shooter choices and when they do we get surprises. I wish I had remembered the results from the post originally addressing this situation but I didn't and still don't recall. Now it's a chance to learn. If anyone can refer us to that original thread that would be great or if they can recall the answer would be just as good. In the meantime I await a response from "The One" or better known as PWB.

Colt

 

 

agreed

 

KK

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What would the call be if directions simply state sweep p/r targets? How would you shoot it?

To me its a P.

 

 

El Muerto Negro

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It was our match.......

 

Please note - it says in any combination and in any order. This is copied and pasted from our shooter booklet.

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols in any combination and in any order, putting ONE round on R/P 1, . . .

 

According to the introductory statement, as long as you put one round (and only 1 round) on the first target, two on the second, etc you meet the requirements of the stage. It said any combination and any order. So you would not have to even do a double tap on the second target, as long as you shot it twice (and only twice) during the sequence.

 

Since the introduction says "rifle and pistols", again, the order is sort of ambiguous since it later says sweep plus either direction. Since there is no advantaged gained, it would be hard to support a P.

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The instructions are:

With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

My take from either direction would indicate one direction. If the shooter engages targets 4-3-2-1, then engages target 5. Haven't they essentially gone in 2 directions?

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Name that sweep 4-3-2-1-5 ?

If you can and have shot it then it could be no P.

Normally we think of a sweep as Left to right, right to left, nevada, etc

When the stage instructions state either direction that normally means L to R or R to L.

 

I say a Procedural for the last 5 pistol shots.

The first 15 shots appear to have been done ok.

 

I would suggest the author of this stage revise it slightly to eliminate this ambiguity.

Our stages should be confusion proof.

IE not a Procedural trap.

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FROM - a starting point

EITHER - one or the other, left or right

DIRECTION - orientation or the goal to which you are progressing

SWEEP - shoot in order

Put it together and to me it says starting at the left or right sweep thru the targets ending on the far side.

You can lawyer it to death, I'd probably call a P, but wouldn't argue the point if overruled.

 

The shooter chose to start FROM target #4.

With the written allowance that the shooter may go in EITHER DIRECTION - the shooter decided to go right to left.

With remaining five rounds - the shooter SWEPT T4, T3, T2, T1 and T5.

 

If the shooter had swept T5 thru T1, by placing a single round on each, no one would have an issue.

I contend that T4 thru T1 and the remaining round on T5 is EXACTLY the same "Sweep".

 

If you had 8 rounds to do a sweep - would:

T5, T4, T3, T2, T1, T5, T4, T3 be any different from

T3, T2, T1, T5, T4, T3, T2, T1?

 

It is the same sweep - immaterial of the start and stop positions.

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The instructions are:

With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

My take from either direction would indicate one direction. If the shooter engages targets 4-3-2-1, then engages target 5. Haven't they essentially gone in 2 directions?

 

My thoughts exactly.

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The instructions are:

With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

My take from either direction would indicate one direction. If the shooter engages targets 4-3-2-1, then engages target 5. Haven't they essentially gone in 2 directions?

 

To make it interesting....You might think the direction she went was counter-clockwise.

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i say (and no offense intended)poorly written stage and the benny goes to the shooter. it says 'any combo and any order' and then preceeds to tell you what to do with the last five rounds. thats not any order.

"start at ..." implies a starting point and the stage writer failed to identify the starting point, leaving the shooters to question the intent of the stage writer. that creates doubt and, again, benny goes to the shooter. could have easily written "start on either end". the sweep is already defining the action.

CC

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A good GF would have been in 7th Heaven on a stage like this. Starting with left pistol and alternating for 10 pistol shots, it would have looked like this:

 

P1 P3 P2 P3 P2 P3 P4 P4 P4 P4

 

I say its a NO CALL on what the shooter did.

 

EDIT: can the phrase 'either direction' imply 'both directions' if the shooter so decides?

 

..........Widder

I just gotta know.............how long dit it took ya ta figure this sequence out?????????????

Seems like I'm always timin,spottin, pickin brass er repairin someody's gun. No time fer figurn......hehehe!

Oh and I say the shooter gits a P.

Blood Washed

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For what it is worth, IMO, once the shooter fired that first of last five shots on #4 there was no way out of P. Again, just my opinion, but to me a sweep must start on the end unless some particular sweep is suggested otherwise(example-PeaPatch sweep). To me either direction implies either end.

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A good GF would have been in 7th Heaven on a stage like this. Starting with left pistol and alternating for 10 pistol shots, it would have looked like this:

 

P1 P3 P2 P3 P2 P3 P4 P4 P4 P4

 

I say its a NO CALL on what the shooter did.

 

EDIT: can the phrase 'either direction' imply 'both directions' if the shooter so decides?

 

..........Widder

 

I hate to interrupt the discussion, but I think a more efficient method is this.

Pistols first, alternating hands. L1-R2-L2-R3-LR3-LR4-LR4. Then with rifle engage target 5 six times, 4,3,2,1.

 

Thanks you for your support.

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A while back we had a thread which discussed if a "sweep" could start in the middle or not. I tried to search for that thread but no luck and cannot recall what the final result was.

 

Just got back from a match with a stage that had the regular 10-10-4 round count and there were 5 R/P targets going left to right. The relevant stage write-up was:

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols

in any combination and in any order, putting ONE

round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE

rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE

rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

I was the TO and helped a shooter through on this one. She used her rifle and then pistol to properly complete the first 15 rds. She used her second pistol for the sweep and before I could coach her shot the targets starting on R/P4, then R/P3, then R/P2, then R/P1. She was now hesitating and I had her swing over to shoot R/P5 which she did. No misses

 

Now since the instructions did not specifically say you had to shoot the sweep starting from the end but said sweep targets from either direction I did not give her a procedural and some felt it was since the sweep was not shot from the "end".

 

What say y'all??

Seems like everyone agrees that the first 15 were no issue, the only debate is on what does the phrase "sweep from either direction" mean.

 

There are one thousand four hundred and eleventy nine named sweeps and two thousand six hundred and three wannabee's. Not everyone agrees on any of them

except maybe 10 or so.

 

Given the absolute meaningless gaggle of sweeps people want to impose on each other, why would anyone care if the shooter invented a new one, as long as

they started in "SOME' direction.

 

Benefit goes to the shooter - nothing stipulated was ignored, nothing required was not done, and obviously there was no gaming advantage to the sweep.

 

This is not the catechism, there's room for freedom of thought in the game (at least for a little while longer).

 

Shadow Catcher

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.....The relevant stage write-up was:

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols

in any combination and in any order, putting ONE

round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE

rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE

rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

I was the TO and helped a shooter through on this one. She used her rifle and then pistol to properly complete the first 15 rds. She used her second pistol for the sweep and before I could coach her shot the targets starting on R/P4, then R/P3, then R/P2, then R/P1. She was now hesitating and I had her swing over to shoot R/P5 which she did. No misses

 

Now since the instructions did not specifically say you had to shoot the sweep starting from the end but said sweep targets from either direction I did not give her a procedural and some felt it was since the sweep was not shot from the "end".

 

What say y'all??

 

It says what it says. Instructions could have been more clear but, I agree with your call given the description above.

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No call!!

No starting point given, sweep From either direction.

May have been easier to understand if she had started in the middle.

3,2,1,5,4 = right to left...4,3,2,1,5 = right to left also.

It's the direction you engage the targets not the directions you swing the gun.

I've shot a lot of sweeps that did not start on an end.

 

BH

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the term either suggests that there are two choices on how this could be shot what are they? the term any would mean two or more combinations.

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Seems to me that "Either" would indicate that you had to choose ONE direction(Either Left to Right or Right to Left).......otherwise it would say from "Both" directions.

 

I'm all for giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt but the fact is that folks screw up and EARN penalties. When we don't give apply them then we are doing two things......

1. Penalizing all the other shooters that did shoot it correctly

2. Setting the stage for that particular shooter to get upset when they are somewhere else and get called for it....."Well they don't call it like that back home".

 

More and More I see calls not being made......sometimes from lack of knowledge of the rules and sometimes not wanting to be the "bad guy". We should encourage everyone to take the RO1 course and WE should endeavor to make ALL the calls.......In my mind the "bad guy" is the one that doesn't penalize the shooter and allows them to continue doing things wrong.

 

 

Stan - who would have called a "P"

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I'm all for giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt but the fact is that folks screw up and EARN penalties. When we don't give apply them then we are doing two things......

1. Penalizing all the other shooters that did shoot it correctly

2. Setting the stage for that particular shooter to get upset when they are somewhere else and get called for it....."Well they don't call it like that back home".

 

More and More I see calls not being made......sometimes from lack of knowledge of the rules and sometimes not wanting to be the "bad guy". We should encourage everyone to take the RO1 course and WE should endeavor to make ALL the calls.......In my mind the "bad guy" is the one that doesn't penalize the shooter and allows them to continue doing things wrong.

 

Precisely.

 

I would have called a 'P'.

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Very, Very Interesting. For those of you that say "no call", would your call be the same if the shooter had shot the last five in an "in 'n' out" sweep? I.e.: 3, 2, 4 1, 5. If so, I laude you on your adherence to Rule # 4 in the ROI manual.

 

But, I hafta say, if the stage directions would have said "engage last five shots in any sweep," I'd agree with you. But, with the "from either direction," direction, it's clear as molasses that allows only two choices of sweeps, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; or, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. From a shooter's standpoint, great stage, lots of options, and unfortunately, this shooter found one of very few ways to get a "P".

 

However, as a famous person once said, there's not amount of explaining something in English, that it can't be mis-interpreted, especially to another English speaker. (Ok, maybe not so famous, otherwise I could remember who to quote)!

 

Goody, nice take on the GF sequence... I like it.

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