What is: "a standard .38 Special 158 gr. factory load?"

[Cowboy Junky]

While I understand the need for a PF and minimum velocity I know my pistols and rifle say .357 on them.....so I have some loads that are pretty darn hot for any 38 and yet I have hit some KD's that didn't go down. It's not often but sometimes I think some folks make em' hard to try to "teach" us gamers a lesson. I wish they would try to stick to the rules rather than trying to teach us life lessons. I'm kinda' thinkin' these are the same folks that drive 55 in the left lane in front of 10 cars to police the other drivers from going 5 mph over. I can guarantee my KD loads are above any "standard" 38 load and pushing SASS limits as close as I feel comfortable doing and sometimes still can't take em' down.

 

IMO when if you are going to use KD's make em' fair or don't use em.....there is a lot of wiggle room to do it right and if you exceed that point you probably short cut the setup, have non-adjustable targets or want to make a point.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Same way me an' teddy finished 5 and 6 (or maybe it was 6 & 7 or 7 & 8) one year cuz we BOTH had SDQ's for dropped guns!

 

Just goes to show ya (close yer eyes and imagine Dubious polishin' his perfectly manicured fingernails on his vest with a smug look on his kisser) that if you're FAST enough, you can overcome ANY handicap!

 

Please note, this year I used my FIVE SHOT 97, most people could load six, I used my 1911 with REAL stingy military fixed sights and not them BIG commercial sights that a lot of people use, a 1912 FLAP swivel holster (ok, I pinned the flap out of the way and it even stayed a couple of times) and MILITARY style mag pouches, not them speedy-bikini mag pouches but NEXT year, I'm a gunnin..... gonna get all gamey and such, gonna whoop up on my pards but good NEXT year, I'm a gonna look like a tornado goin through a Kansas trailerpark!

 

Come watch me shoot at Rio this Sat and get a preview!

 

Edit, darn can't type with my thumbs on Blackberry any better than I can shoot sometimes.

 

Arizona Sunshine's barely legal power factor 65 32s took all the pistol targets down and we both used 105 g 38 spl rifle loads on the rifle targets. They all went down easily with center of mass hits. Arizona Sunshine's 32s even took down two plates at once, only shooter on our WR posse that did this.

 

What I really want to know tho, is how you managed to finish 5th in Wild Bunch with a SDQ. Ah the beauty of Rank Points.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Same way me an' teddy finished 5 and 6 (or maybe it was 6 & 7 or 7 & 8) one year cuz we BOTH had SDQ's for dropped guns!

 

Just goes to show ya (close yer eyes and imagine Dubious polishin' his perfectly manicured fingernails on his vest with a smug look on his kisser) that if you're FAST enough, you can overcome ANY handicap!

 

Please note, this year I used my FIVE SHOT 97, most people could load six, I used my 1911 with REAL stingy military fixed sights and not them BIG commercial sights that a lot of people use, a 1912 FLAP swivel holster (ok, I pinned the flap out of the way and it even stayed a couple of times) and MILITARY style mag pouches, not them speedy-bikini mag pouches but NEXT year, I'm a gunnin..... gonna get all gamey and such, gonna whoop up on my pards but good NEXT year, I'm a gonna look like a tornado goin through a Kansas trailerpark!

 

Come watch me shoot at Rio this Sat and get a preview!

Will be at Rio Sat. You can blame me for the Idaho Shuffle stage.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Will be at Rio Sat. You can blame me for the Idaho Shuffle stage.

 

Idaho Shuffle? Couple of nasty crossovers for goonfighters but it does look FUN!

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Yep Phantom ,,,, I is Fat 195 pounds at 6'1".......

 

And yes I like shooting loads that are with-in what the rules call for ,,,, and are Balistic twins for the loads that the cowboys shot in the 70s,80s & 90s .....

 

 

And Phantom ,,,, I do try not to be Rude ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Yep Phantom ,,,, I is Fat 195 pounds at 6'1".......

 

And yes I like shooting loads that are with-in what the rules call for ,,,, and are Balistic twins for the loads that the cowboys shot in the 70s,80s & 90s .....

 

 

And Phantom ,,,, I do try not to be Rude ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

So why do you want everyone else to shoot what you like to shoot. You raise loads issues on most all of your posts. Everyone should be able to shoot whatever they want within the rules without ridicule. I like to shoot ballistic twins to all the 32/36 caliber loads shot way back then. What is wrong with that?

[Oklahomabound]

You folks have convinced me I need to go chrono my rounds.....

 

I'm shooting .38 Special out of 1851 R/M Open Tops... I ain't had no problem with knock down targets when I hit them.... but I may be one of them seismic causing shooters 'cause my .38 Special rounds are stuffed plumb full of Black Powder.....

 

...gotta go get me one of them chrono thingys....

[Griff]

I don't believe reloading manuals and SAAMI specs are necessarily the correct way to look at what constitutes a "standard FACTORY load". All three major companies making .38Spl loads for YEARS... have listed their standard 158grain lead loads @ ~755fps.

 

And that's been the standard for KDs for as long as I've been playing this game. Frankly, if my .36cal RBs can take 'em down, anyone's .38s that meet the PF oughta. (My .36 RBs don't... but then they don't have to!)

[Cowboy Junky]

So why do you want everyone else to shoot what you like to shoot. You raise loads issues on most all of your posts. Everyone should be able to shoot whatever they want within the rules without ridicule. I like to shoot ballistic twins to all the 32/36 caliber loads shot way back then. What is wrong with that?

 

+1 GCK

 

That’s kinda’ what I’m thinkin’ too. Most of the bullets I see from the 1800’s were not that stout compared to today’s guns. The 36 caliber Navy Colt shoots a 81 gr bullet @ 750 – 800 fps and not to many folks would probably laugh at Wild Bill if he drew one on ya’. My “gamey” 38’s are hitting a lot harder than that.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Yep Phantom ,,,, I is Fat 195 pounds at 6'1".......

 

And yes I like shooting loads that are with-in what the rules call for ,,,, and are Balistic twins for the loads that the cowboys shot in the 70s,80s & 90s .....

 

 

And Phantom ,,,, I do try not to be Rude ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

Fact is that you have a bias (which in and of itself is fine...as we all do), but you make it a point push your way of havin fun on others. Typical of many that shoot hotter loads, why an issue of KD's come up, you laugh at those that have issues...oh...just put more powder in your rounds...well, believe it or not, many have issues with shooting hotter rounds.

 

The game should be fun...not a game of proving how tough ya are...it should be fun and success should be AVAILABLE (not guaranteed), to everyone...OLD, YOUNG...WEAK...

 

So really, no one...or very few really gives a rats ass about how your loads are like your grandfathers...

 

Having KDs in a match should not be something that my friend who is old(er) and has health issues in his joints should be worried about successfully kd'ing.

 

 

PS: Yer short!!

[Waterloo]

In response to your 5th question, yes, I think it is an intelligent idea to bring two loads with you to a match. If there is any doubt you will always have that option.

 

Dubious, I think you might have edged one or two of them. My Mod P doubled on one of them, sometimes it thinks its a Glock 18. Wish I could make it do that on command, oh well at least it went down with authority.

[Anvil Al #59168]

All this standard load *&^% should not mean ANYTHING.

WE HAVE A PF.

 

If someone has a LEGAL load of a PF of 60.

Then that is what should be able to take a KD.

 

I don't think a GOOD match director should set anything up that a shooter

shooting any LEGAL loads should have to worry about. PERIOD.

 

IF they do. That is a Match Director problem. Not a shooter load problem.

 

SASS set the Power Factor So a shooter shooting legal loads SHOULD be able to

walk up to any match and not worry about WHAT they are going to shoot.

 

If it will not fall with anything at a 60 PF. Then it should not be used. Because SASS

has said that load was legal.

 

Having said that. I have never had one of my loads not take a KD down.

And I do carry heavier loads with my just in case.

Because they are not all GOOD MD's out there.

 

Don't matter what you like to shoot personally. That don't matter.

SASS set the load. We should live by it

 

Just my take on it.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

So, does all this mean I have to put gunpowder in my bullets???

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Standard velocity .38 Special SAAMI Specs are app. 750-800 FPS and pessure of 17,000 PSI. Plus P's have a pressure average of 21,000.

 

The above listed WW-231/Hodgdon HP38, (same powders) at 14,600 PSI are actually well below SAAMI Specs

 

Taken from WIKIPEDIA:

 

Type Revolver

Place of origin United States

Production history

Designer Smith & Wesson

Designed 1902

Specifications

Parent case .38 Long Colt

Case type Rimmed, straight

Bullet diameter .357 in (9.1 mm)

Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)

Base diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)

Rim diameter .44 in (11 mm)

Rim thickness .058 in (1.5 mm)

Case length 1.155 in (29.3 mm)

Overall length 1.55 in (39 mm)

Primer type Small pistol

Ballistic performance

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy

110 gr (7.1 g) JHP 980 ft/s (300 m/s) 235 ft·lbf (319 J)

130 gr (8.4 g) FMJ 810 ft/s (250 m/s) 189 ft·lbf (256 J)

148 gr (9.6 g) LWC 690 ft/s (210 m/s) 156 ft·lbf (212 J)

158 gr (10.2 g) LRN 770 ft/s (230 m/s) 208 ft·lbf (282 J)

Test barrel length: 4 in (vented)

Source(s): [1][2][3][4][5]

 

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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This article is about the cartridge. For the band, see 38 Special (band).

.38 Special

 

.38 Special rounds

Type Revolver

Place of origin United States

Production history

Designer Smith & Wesson

Designed 1902

Specifications

Parent case .38 Long Colt

Case type Rimmed, straight

Bullet diameter .357 in (9.1 mm)

Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)

Base diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)

Rim diameter .44 in (11 mm)

Rim thickness .058 in (1.5 mm)

Case length 1.155 in (29.3 mm)

Overall length 1.55 in (39 mm)

Primer type Small pistol

Ballistic performance

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy

110 gr (7.1 g) JHP 980 ft/s (300 m/s) 235 ft·lbf (319 J)

130 gr (8.4 g) FMJ 810 ft/s (250 m/s) 189 ft·lbf (256 J)

148 gr (9.6 g) LWC 690 ft/s (210 m/s) 156 ft·lbf (212 J)

158 gr (10.2 g) LRN 770 ft/s (230 m/s) 208 ft·lbf (282 J)

Test barrel length: 4 in (vented)

Source(s): [1][2][3][4][5]

The .38 Smith & Wesson Special (commonly .38 Special, .38 Spl, or .38 Spc, pronounced "thirty-eight special") is a rimmed, centerfire cartridge designed by Smith & Wesson. It is most commonly used in revolvers, although some semi-automatic pistols and carbines also use this round. The .38 Special was the standard service cartridge of most police departments in the United States from the 1920s to the early 1990s, and was also a common sidearm cartridge used by soldiers in World War One. In other parts of the world, particularly Europe, it is known by its metric designation 9×29mmR.

 

Contents [hide]

1 History

2 Performance

3 Handloading

4 See also

5 References

6 External links

 

[edit] History

First model M&P revolver designed in 1899 for the .38 Special cartridge. This particular revolver left the factory in 1900.

Letter from Roy Jinks, Smith and Wesson Historian. Provenance of first model M&P revolver in .38 Special.The .38 Special was introduced in 1899 as an improvement over the .38 Long Colt which, as a military service cartridge, was found to have inadequate stopping power against the wooden shields of charging Moros during the Philippine-American War.[6] Most hand-loading manuals and other references date the cartridge to 1902 and the Smith & Wesson Military and Police revolver variation of that year.

 

Although it was introduced thirteen years into the smokeless powder era, the .38 Special was originally loaded with black powder, but was offered with smokeless loads within a year of its introduction.[7]

 

Despite its name, the .38 Special caliber is actually .357–.358 inches (9.0678 mm), with the ".38" referring to the approximate diameter of the loaded brass case. This came about because the original .38-caliber cartridge, the .38 Short Colt, was designed for use in converted .36-caliber cap-and-ball (muzzleloading) Navy revolvers, which had cylindrical firing chambers of approximately 0.374-inch (9.5 mm) diameter, requiring heeled bullets, the exposed portion of which was the same diameter as the cartridge case (see the section on the .38 Long Colt).

 

Except for its length, the .38 Special case is identical to that of the .38 Long Colt, and to the .357 Magnum which was developed from the earlier cartridge in 1935. This allows the .38 Special round to be safely fired in revolvers chambered for the .357 Magnum. The reverse, however, is not true; the .357 Magnum case was specifically designed to be longer than that of the .38 Special so that .357-caliber ammunition would not chamber in .38-caliber weapons, which are not designed for the greatly increased pressure of the magnum rounds.

 

The .38 Special is very accurate in a quality revolver, produces little recoil, and remains the most popular revolver cartridge in the world more than a century after its introduction.[8] It is used for target shooting, formal target competition, personal defense, and for hunting small game.

 

In the 1930s, heavy framed revolvers oriented toward target shooting, such as the Smith & Wesson 38/44 Heavy Duty, allowed development of a higher pressure (and therefore higher power) version called the .38 Special Hi-Speed and eventually, the .357 Magnum. Today, versions of this cartridge loaded to slightly higher pressure are available, called .38 Special +P; these are usable in .38 revolvers rated +P and in .357 revolvers.

 

There is also a high-velocity load made by manufacturers such as Federal and Winchester, usually labeled "For Law Enforcement Only" and designated .38 Special +P+.[9] This ammunition is meant to be only used in .38 Special revolvers specially proofed for this load and can cause significant damage to firearms rated for only .38 Special or .38 Special +P. As with other .38 Special rounds, it can also be fired safely in .357 revolvers, since the pressure developed by the .38 Special +P+ load is typically about 22,000 PSI and .357 revolvers are rated for 35,000 PSI.[10]

 

Because the .38 Special also works in .357 revolvers, it is popular with users of the .357 for the reduced recoil, lower noise, and lower cost. A number of lever action rifles are also chambered in .357 Magnum and .38 Special.

 

[edit] PerformanceDue to its black powder heritage, the .38 Special is a low pressure cartridge, one of the lowest in common use today at 17,000 PSI. By modern standards, the .38 Special fires a medium-sized bullet at rather low speeds. The closest comparisons are the .380 ACP, which fires much lighter bullets slightly faster than most .38 Special loads; the 9x19mm Parabellum, which fires a somewhat lighter bullet significantly faster; and the .38 Colt Super, which fires a comparable bullet significantly faster. All three of these are usually found in semi-automatic pistols.

 

The higher-pressure .38 +P loads at 20,000 PSI offer about 20% more muzzle energy than standard-pressure loads and places between .380 ACP and 9 mm Parabellum, similar to that of 9x18mm Makarov.

 

.38 Comparisons Cartridge Bullet weight Muzzle velocity Muzzle energy Max pressure

.38 Short Colt 135 gr (8.7 g) 777 ft/s (237 m/s) 181 ft·lbf (245 J) 7,500 CUP

.38 Long Colt 150 gr (9.7 g) 777 ft/s (237 m/s) 201 ft·lbf (273 J) 12,000 CUP

.38 S&W 158 gr (10.2 g) 767 ft/s (234 m/s) 206 ft·lbf (279 J) 14,500 PSI

.38 S&W Special 158 gr (10.2 g) 940 ft/s (290 m/s) 310 ft·lbf (420 J) 17,000 PSI

.38 Special +P 158 gr (10.2 g) 1,000 ft/s (300 m/s) 351 ft·lbf (476 J) 20,000 PSI

.38 Special +P+ 110 gr (7.1 g) 1,100 ft/s (340 m/s) 295 ft·lbf (400 J) >20,000 PSI

.380 ACP 100 gr (6.5 g) 895 ft/s (273 m/s) 178 ft·lbf (241 J) 21,500 PSI

9x19mm Parabellum 115 gr (7.5 g) 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 420 ft·lbf (570 J) 39,200 PSI

9x19mm Parabellum 124 gr (8.0 g) 1,180 ft/s (360 m/s) 383 ft·lbf (520 J) 39,200 PSI

9x18mm Makarov 95 gr (6.2 g) 1,050 ft/s (320 m/s) 231 ft·lbf (313 J) 23,206 PSI

.38 Super 130 grains (8.4 g) 1,275 ft/s (389 m/s) 468 ft·lbf (634 J) 36,500 PSI

.357 Magnum 158 grains (10.2 g) 1,349 ft/s (411 m/s) 639 ft·lbf (866 J) 35,000 PSI

.357 SIG 125 grains (8.1 g) 1,350 ft/s (410 m/s) 506 ft·lbf (686 J) 40,000 PSI

 

All of the above specifications for .38 loadings, and the .357 Magnum, are applicable when fired from a 6 inch barreled revolver. The velocity is reduced when using the more standard 4 inch barreled guns.[11] Power (Muzzle energy) will, of course, decrease accordingly.

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

The last time I had to calibrate knockdowns for a major match I used 100 grain wadcutters from the 3D company [chrono avg under 700fps from 3" barrel] and my wife's 3" barrel Cimarron Lightning at the maximum range of the stage. Each target was checked. Shotgun targets were checked with an open choke 20 guage using light field loads AA winchester.

I had experienced some knockdown problems myself at various places over the years and my loads are not light. I wanted to avoid those problems for our matches as I know the knock downs shift some and build up lead so they were set as light as possible and still stand up. Yet still some shooters failed to knock them down with hits even freshly set. I believe they shot low or very very light loads.

I don't think any place I've been set anything "heavy to punish gamers". I think that was just a matter of the proper set up and maintenance of the targets being overlooked due to chronic shortage of help and time.

I've seen a real improvement in knockdown targets since the eary homemade ones we started with and I haven't had a problem in quite awhile *if I hit them*.

My suggestion is to test all major match knockdowns with off the shelf name brand factory .38 spl ammo , your club to specify what that will be, and to address any complaints about knock downs with a test with the same ammo.

Joe

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Good match directors set their knockdowns to fall when hit.

 

When I use knockdowns - I calibrate them with my 11 year old Buckarettes 22 LR Frontier Scouts.

And I tell people in the shooters meeting pre match - If it don't go down, it's cause you missed it.

 

We just shot the nationals and had two stages of knockdowns (one rifle - one pistol) and on the third day of the match, after 500+ shooters had shot at these knockdowns, they were still set so that a 105 grain 38 special out of a 4 5/8" inch barrel would take them down.

 

Good match directors set their knockdowns to fall when hit.

See how simple it is?

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I have seen shooters complain that knock-downs were set to hard ,,,,,, pulled a "bearcat" .22 and downed the too tough target .....

 

No reshoot was granted ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

The target in question will fall every time when struck with 36gr. Winchester "Wildcat" ammo,,, more than 3 inches above the bottom edge ....

 

So if you complain about my knock-downs ,,,, prepare to be laughed at !!! My baby Remmie will put them down when struck in the top 6 inches ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

 

Good match directors set their knockdowns to fall when hit.

See how simple it is?

Ta Daaa!!

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy