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Wolf Bane, SASS 13557

ATF Letter on Shotguns

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ATF announced at SHOT that they'd be issuing a letter today on shotgun imports. Of course, it's past end-of-day in D.C. and no letter, so maybe they changed their minds. There have been a lot of rumors, but the most credible today seem to suggest that the letter was going to address shotguns from China. I'll let you know if and when such a letter gets posted...

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

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What's your bet? Are we gonna be legislated to buy FEWER shotguns from China to reduce the trade deficit or to punish them for not playing fair?

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I believe it will be declaring the Saigas as not suitable for "sporting purposes" and the new Rossie/Taurus 28 gauge pistol as a SBS.

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My WAG is that the 410 Ranch Hand and the 28 gauge Raging Judge will be declared "destructive devices". In other words, banned from importation and us citizens cannot possess them. The box mag Saiga's I fear are history.

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I had a posting from Gunsamerica , I think , that said the 28ga revolver had been pulled from the booth and the people there said they had changed thier mind and would not be producing it. That came over my E-mail yesterday.

Personally , I would never have missed it anyway. YMMV. Rex :D

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I had a posting from Gunsamerica , I think , that said the 28ga revolver had been pulled from the booth and the people there said they had changed thier mind and would not be producing it. That came over my E-mail yesterday.

Personally , I would never have missed it anyway. YMMV. Rex :D

 

 

I sure wish I had gotten to the Shot Show to see and hear about all those wonderful, coming pieces, that are now shadows in the sand. Why not stick with what we have and improve those needing improving. I am in the market for an 11 guage squirrel pistol with selective ejectors. Oh yes, in break top design, and nickel plated for easy care and being manufactured with coil springs and lowered hammer.

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Guest diablo slim shootist

I sure wish I had gotten to the Shot Show to see and hear about all those wonderful, coming pieces, that are now shadows in the sand. Why not stick with what we have and improve those needing improving. I am in the market for an 11 guage squirrel pistol with selective ejectors. Oh yes, in break top design, and nickel plated for easy care and being manufactured with coil springs and lowered hammer.

Got one in 13 gage ill sell you :P:lol:;)

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Well, I'll sure miss the Raging Judge. I always said the Judge held no appeal for me if I couldn't get it in something bigger than 410 gauge. Now the bloody ATF has to go and ruin things...

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Wait a minute isnt a 50 the largest handgun caliber you can produce in a modern firearm? IIRC a conversation with a dealer when the 50AE came out I asked whats next a 60 caliber? His response was that 50 was as big as you can go in a handgun per BATF. If this is correct then someone really dropped the ball by producing something that is a SBS and trying to market it like the Judge.

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I believe it will be declaring the Saigas as not suitable for "sporting purposes" and the new Rossie/Taurus 28 gauge pistol as a SBS.

 

 

Saigas are now illegal..shotguns with high capacity external magazines are illegal

The entire breadth of this new ATF ruling has not been sent to FFL's yet, but I am sure there will be other shotguns(long guns and pistols) that are now illegal.

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Sixgun Shorty,

 

Do you have a web citation for that or did you get paper?

Thanks,

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Good Lord Sixgun Shorty,

 

I was looking at your post and your "interest stuff". Is there anything you don't do??? :):)

 

Chicken Coop

 

PS: Ya'll going to WR this year?

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How about we start a ban on the ATF! :angry: They have not helped anything. :FlagAm:

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Interesting. Thanks for the link. I didn't read the whole study, but one thing popped out immediately. The words "sporting purposes" were used several times. Funny, I don't remember the 2nd Amendment using that phrase.

:angry:

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Item #4 on Page 10 says that any shotgun holding more than 5 rounds in the magazine is not for "sporting purposes," and would not be imported if this becomes law.

 

I guess I need to stop shooting my '97 (which holds six rounds in the tube magazine) in Wild Bunch matches. And I'll need to go check my '87 to see how many it holds.

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Page 1 of the report or page 6 of the pdf file

 

The largest commonly available gauge is 10 gauge (.0775 in. bore diameter).

I think they got their decimal in the wrong place. Don't those guys ever review their own work!

 

Dogmeat (Who Hates Errors In Published Reports) Dad

 

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"Sporting Purposes" is more clearly defined in the ATF study....and is yet to include use in IPSC, USPSA or SASS/CAS or other combat/LEO competition as sporting purposes.

 

The SAIGA 12 looks to be in jeopardy.

 

Note: This study ONLY applies to importation of shotguns and NOT to shotguns produced within the USA. This has nothing to do with 2nd Amendment rights. Congress has the authority under the Constitution to regulate commerce and importation from other countries falls within their purview.

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Congress has the authority under the Constitution to regulate commerce and importation from other countries falls within their purview.

 

Indeed they do, but what's objectionable in this instance is how a regulatory agency is in effect side-stepping Congress to impose their will (or agenda).

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Actually, they aren't. Congress gave the Sec of Treas the authority in 1968 (now it's the AG as the federal organization changed after 9-11).

 

1968....wasn't that a Republican President?

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I don't know about 'free'. It sure will put a kink in competitions since the guns won't be able to move over state lines without ATF approval (if I remember right).

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Actually, they aren't. Congress gave the Sec of Treas the authority in 1968 (now it's the AG as the federal organization changed after 9-11).

 

1968....wasn't that a Republican President?

 

 

Actually NO. Although we did elect Nixon in 1968 -- Johnson was the President in 1968. Nixon didn't take office until 1969 -- AND -- more important -- it was a Democratic Congress AND Senate.

 

Let us not forget, the Democrats have always been the party of more gun control.

 

Conejo

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So, if these are placed under the NFA what happens to all those that are currently owned? Free Form 4's for everyone?

 

I didn't read the entire form (I only skimmed it), but it sounds like they are only trying to prevent the importation of what they are referring to as non-sporting shotguns. This is similar to the ban on importing non-sporting rifles which ended the importation of Norinco AK's to the US. You can still buy, sell, own, and transport AK's; they just can't be imported anymore. Same will be true for Saiga shotguns. This has nothing to do with NFA.

 

Of course, I'm not a lawyer and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night so I could be wrong.

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It all depends on whether they get classified as Destructive Devices. (remember the streetsweeper?).

 

The SAIGA-12 forum boys know the rules inside and out and it appears they are very upset about this study. Can't say that I blame them.

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The cover indicates that comments can be made via fax or e-mail during the comment period. I e-mailed a comment urging no final adoption of these standards to the e-mail address shotgunstud@atf.gov

 

If you're reading this, you're on a computer and have e-mail. Send a polite e-mail voicing your objections to the measure. This may not affect its final adoption given that the ATF is an executive branch department and we have an anti-gun presidence, but a few hundred thousand negative comments will give our elected officials ammo if they object to the matter in Congress.

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It all depends on whether they get classified as Destructive Devices. (remember the streetsweeper?).

 

The SAIGA-12 forum boys know the rules inside and out and it appears they are very upset about this study. Can't say that I blame them.

 

 

OK- I just read the entire paper. Here are the cliff notes for those who don't want to read the whole thing:

 


  •  
  • The 1968 law banned the importation of firearms to this country, but left an exemption for guns used for sporting purposes.
  • On two occasions they tried to define what is considered for sporting-purposes. The latest resulted in the importation ban of non-sporting rifles, aka "assault rifles".
  • This new study, is trying to define what a non-sporting shotgun is, which will remove them from the exemption which currently allows them to be imported.

 

It doesn't mention anything about reclassifying anything as an NFA or destructive devise. I can see why the Saiga fans are mad because Saigas would no longer be able to be imported, but I don't see any effect to what they already own or what is already in the US. Also, US made versions (doesn't Arsenal make a shotgun?) could still be made and sold in the US.

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OK- I just read the entire paper. Here are the cliff notes for those who don't want to read the whole thing:

 


  •  
  • The 1968 law banned the importation of firearms to this country, but left an exemption for guns used for sporting purposes.
  • On two occasions they tried to define what is considered for sporting-purposes. The latest resulted in the importation ban of non-sporting rifles, aka "assault rifles".
  • This new study, is trying to define what a non-sporting shotgun is, which will remove them from the exemption which currently allows them to be imported.

 

It doesn't mention anything about reclassifying anything as an NFA or destructive devise. I can see why the Saiga fans are mad because Saigas would no longer be able to be imported, but I don't see any effect to what they already own or what is already in the US. Also, US made versions (doesn't Arsenal make a shotgun?) could still be made and sold in the US.

 

frank,

Yes, that's it in a nutshell. The study starts out by saying the shotguns were never included in the original regs. Mainly because there were no M&P or non-sporting shotguns back then. What they want to do now is close the door on them like they did the rifles.

As for banning the Saiga as it is configured now, that is not likely to happen. As imported it doesn't have any of the disqualifiers mentioned in the tudy.

You won't ever be able to IMPORT a non-sporting shotgun version of the Saiga. But, you will still be able to buy the Sporting version and then have it converted to 922R specs into a more tactical version.

 

MY 922 compliant SAIGA 12

 

MY SAIGA 12 again

 

Here's a good read from a gun rights lawyer.

Prince law on ATf Study

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While we are talking about the ATF and shotguns, here's something to remember for Mossberg Cruisers and the like.

 

"Federal law provides under 18 U.S.C. 922(B)(1), that if the firearm to be

transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser

must be 21 years of age or older.

 

Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within

the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though

they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example,

firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of

the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.

A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is

not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore,

is not a shotgun. Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or

shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older.

Additionally, interstate controls apply. The licensee and

transferee must be residents of the same State.

Other questions raised pertain to entries made in the

licensee’s required records with respect to firearm “type.”

These entries should indicate the firearm type as “pistol grip

firearm.”

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My impression is that it is applying only to semi-auto shotguns and not to pump, bolt action or lever action shotguns. Im I right or wrong??

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My impression is that it is applying only to semi-auto shotguns and not to pump, bolt action or lever action shotguns. Im I right or wrong??

 

The 89 and 98 study's were specifically about semi auto rifles, for sure. But, this current study does not specify semi auto shotguns. It just says shotguns. So, it could well mean any shotgun. But, it would have to have at least one of the several prohibited features to be banned from importing.

 

As it stands the Saiga as currently imported has none of those prohibited features so it shouldn't be affected.

 

The one grey area that most of the Saiga Owners are concerned about is if the converted 922 compliant saiga's are declared destructive device like the So. African Streetsweepers and strikers were.

 

We have three months to voice our views. I encourage all to do so, and do so in a reasonable manor and leave your emotions out of it.

 

 

 

"All interested persons may submit comments on this study.

 

 

Comments may be submitted by e-mail to shotgunstudy@atf.gov or by fax to (202)648-9601.

 

 

Faxed comments may not exceed 5 pages.

 

 

All comments must include name and mailing address."

 

ATF encourages submission of comments no later than May 1, 2011.

 

 

I think I would point out, in lieu of the recent Heller decision, the sporting aspect should be null and void. If not then practical shooting games particularly the shotgun part have grown considerably in the last 10 to 15 years and should be considered as sporting events.

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When a Saiga drum magazine shows up in the report in the Appendix in full color....

 

and the ATF resends the memorandum on a shotgun with pistol grip in lieu of a shoulder stock (received a month or two back)....

 

and Gibbs mentions today that Obama will be discussing gun violence in the near future....

 

....I guess I just don't believe in coincidences.

 

Magazines and magazine-fed firearms are in for a review. The Saiga may be the least of the problems.

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Agree we all need to send comments as suggested and I will do so shortly. My thought is the price on the Saiga's is going to go up pronto and mucho.

 

If these do wind up on a form 4 are they going to be a short bbl shotgun or destructive device?

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