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paisano

Tin Star Christmas

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I agree the game should be set up so everyone can enjoy the match. I guess that I have just not been shooting Sass long enough to know a good set-up. If you are talking about the Team Shoot........I would pass on that if it were offered again under those conditions. You probably have more insight on what went on behind the scenes than I do.......I hope the club listens to the suggestions and next year is better.

 

I too hope they listen to the suggestions. It's a great venue for Cowboy Shooting and it's a shame that they are not drawing in 150-200 shooters to their annual match.

 

:D

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I too hope they listen to the suggestions. It's a great venue for Cowboy Shooting and it's a shame that they are not drawing in 150-200 shooters to their annual match.

 

:D

 

 

Good Night.......wish I was shooting tomorrow......

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So the actual stage designs have nothing to do with whether it's a good shoot?

 

Frankly, just about every shoot that I've gone to have:

 

1. Good People

2. Most are nice places...or as nice as the club can do.

3. Safe? Most are safe...haven't had too many shoots where safety was an issue.

4. Learn something new...interesting...don't know how anyone can design that into a match...perhaps a Jeopardy side match?

5. Food...good food...that's important? Well...okay...if you think that good food is on the list of what's important to the majority of SASS shooters...guess I'll take your word for it. Hasn't been my experience...but okay. Of course to me, any food is good...and I'm thankful for whatever meal I'm given...wouldn't judge a match based on the quality of the food.

6. Share a story or two...again, don't know how anyone can design that into a match. That said, most matches I've been to generate a few good stories.

 

So having stage designs that can yield a clean stage for 90% of the people 90% of the time is not on your list? Having stage designs that allow those with shaky hands to be able to have a chance at shooting clean isn't important?

 

Clubs that don't listen to everyone...to everyone's opinion...ends up being nothing but a cozy little private Cowboy Club. This does not grow the game...this doesn't help keep the game alive.

 

:D

 

Stage design is important..... certainly not the most important thing about a match but it definitely has a bearing on whether I enjoy shooting the match or not.

I can and have over looked things that were lacking in a match and still had a great time... but a match that is disorganized to the point of frustrating a large number of shooters and those putting on the match chosing to turn down suggestions from veteran shooters who were willing to work to build the club.... frustrating.

Please note that I am not including myself in those I called "veteran shooters". I have been doing this for 6 years now but I still do not consider myself a veteran shooter. I know of 3 gentlemen that have tried to help and been frustrated at the response they got.

 

I will say it again... I like these folks but if they don't listen to what the shooters want they will end up with... "a cozy little private Cowboy Club"

I just hate that for them. Tin Star is too nice a place for only a few people to shoot there. It has such potential....

 

I wish they would let someone help them.

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Well, I have been without an RV AND a computer for a while....I AM FRED!!!!

 

While I appreciate all the kind words and compliments---I DID NOT design this shoot, and I WAS NOT the match director. I just saw a great place to shoot and some wonderful folks who weren't getting the local support that they needed. Like Indian Jack said, I am retired and went down early to help with anything I could. Were there some issues? Of course there were. (I've never seen a match that EVERYTHING went 100% right). Can these things be corrected and/or avoided in the future? Sure they can.

 

Tin Star Ranch is a GREAT venue, run by the nicest people with the best of intentions, HOWEVER it takes more than 4-5 people to run a match and they do not get the local support that they need. WHY? THAT I can't answer.

You can never please EVERYONE but the goal is to please as much of the majority of shooters as possible. If you don't know what the majority wants you can't make the changes that need to be made.

 

WE Cowboy shooters get out of a match what only what SOMEONE has put into it, and trust me a lot of work was put into this as well as all CAS Matches.

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Yes I too wonder why Tin Star can't get "local support". Perhaps instead of casting aspersions on the "local clubs", you should ask the Tin Star management.

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Yes I too wonder why Tin Star can't get "local support". Perhaps instead of casting aspersions on the "local clubs", you should ask the Tin Star management.

 

Bad Hand, I wasn't casting aspersions on anyone, or at least didn't intend to. I was just asking a question that I DON'T know the answer to, and from several peoples statements and even your response no one else does either.

 

I HAVE talked to Jim and Cherry and they don't seem to know either. I DO know that they are frustrated by trying to please everyone, and that can't be done.

I would just hate that such a great place to shoot could go away from lack of support and participation.

 

I enjoyed shooting with you and having you on my posse at State last year, and look forward to shooting with you again.

 

One more important thing: CONGRATULATIONS Concho Billy for a Clean Match.....ALWAYS something to be proud of! (I'd have been there with you but dropped my last pistol round of the match.....MY Bad)

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Yes I too wonder why Tin Star can't get "local support". Perhaps instead of casting aspersions on the "local clubs", you should ask the Tin Star management.

 

 

I have asked Jim/Micky the same thing. His answer is that he really doesn't know. I'm sure he would tell me since we have become friends over the last year. We found out that we grew up in Mid Ohio about 8 miles apart.

 

This support thing isn't new. I shoot at two clubs that are about 10 miles apart and they shoot on different weekends. Guess what very little support between the two clubs. What a shame. I guess when you let the politics and opinions of a few get involved in running a club it's bad for all. I don't know if that is always the case or not, just in some.

 

Jim

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I am one of the orginal members of Tin Star when it first started. It is a nice place. I shot this match last year and had a good time, but it was the last draw for my knee, I have been limping ever since. Our range is easier on my knees. Maybe other folks have problems too with all the stairs/hills, up and down at loading and unloading for most stages. We are getting older and paying for life's earlier injuries. 10 years ago at Tin Star I could carry the stairs on my shoulders while shooting, not anymore.

One issue around here could be location, this area has many clubs and Tin Star sits out of the way for most folks compared to other clubs here. Another is that folks are busy with their own clubs. I know I am. I have a 50 hour a week full time job and the Texicans come first in CAS, my home club and I am the President. I don't have the time or desire for another responsibilty outside of family. Could be for others too.

The Texicans have a larger range, with cows to break things and we work hard at our club to keep it running and have good turnouts. The San Antonio and Austin clubs probably have the same issues, deep into their own needs. You can't help/shoot 2 different matches at the same time. San Antonio had a shoot the same day. There was another shoot in the area on the same weekend, at Plum Creek that would draw Austin area shooters. We had a very important meeting/lunch that Sunday for the SASS Texas State match in 2011. With a dozen or so at the meeting it was the best date we could plan In December for full turnout.

The Texican Rangers do not shoot November and December because of deer hunters using the ranch and I for one enjoy the winter break. I can do things around the house that are put off as I am on our range many weekends the other 10 months working. I also do a lot of work at home for the club. Sometimes I get a little burned out with keeping up with those first 10 months.

Maybe shooters are spread too thin. I don't think it's fair to call out other clubs in this area for anything going on at Tin Star. They have helped in the past, some folks did try.

I know more about this issue, but I would not post it, that's for Jim's ears if he wants to hear it.

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"""So having stage designs that can yield a clean stage for 90% of the people 90% of the time is not on your list? Having stage designs that allow those with shaky hands to be able to have a chance at shooting clean isn't important?"""

 

No one said it's supposed to be easy. It wouldn't be a competition if it were. There are many clubs around who design stages so that it is difficult (if not down right hard) to shoot a clean match. I still feel there should be some allowance for accuracy. Just "fanning" (really thumbing, is that a word?) your guns as fast as you can at targets you could touch with the end of the barrel isn't really a measure of the best shooter. It sounds and looks cool, I guess.

 

I don't think that having to be a member of MENSA and remembering target order is the answer either. I know that you can't please or include everyone all of the time. Some folks want the matches to be an IDPA match and some want it to be very easy to attract new shooters. (If it was easy - everyone could do it!!)

 

 

I am sure there is some middle ground. :)

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"""So having stage designs that can yield a clean stage for 90% of the people 90% of the time is not on your list? Having stage designs that allow those with shaky hands to be able to have a chance at shooting clean isn't important?"""

 

No one said it's supposed to be easy. It wouldn't be a competition if it were. There are many clubs around who design stages so that it is difficult (if not down right hard) to shoot a clean match. I still feel there should be some allowance for accuracy. Just "fanning" (really thumbing, is that a word?) your guns as fast as you can at targets you could touch with the end of the barrel isn't really a measure of the best shooter. It sounds and looks cool, I guess.

 

I don't think that having to be a member of MENSA and remembering target order is the answer either. I know that you can't please or include everyone all of the time. Some folks want the matches to be an IDPA match and some want it to be very easy to attract new shooters. (If it was easy - everyone could do it!!)

 

 

I am sure there is some middle ground. :ph34r:

 

First, the statement that I made was a paraphrasing of a statement that the Judge made...I've got a feeling that he has an idea of what this game was/is supposed to be about.

 

Also, my statement says NOTHING about being so close you can touch the target with the end of one's barrel...as if this is the only alternative to small and far target placement.

 

And lastly, speed IS an element of this game. By simply having NOTHING but small and far targets at a match you are eliminating this aspect of the game...

 

Phantom

:)

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Does this place shoot monthly????

 

Or is it just a twice a year thing????

 

If they do not have a CLUB there. That shoots regularly. Then they just don't have a shooter pool to draw from for help.

 

Sounds like they REALLY need someone to hold there hand and really show them what it takes to put one on.

 

Hope they figure it out. Sure sounds like a nice place. And sounds like they are running out of chances for some.

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Does this place shoot monthly????

 

Or is it just a twice a year thing????

 

If they do not have a CLUB there. That shoots regularly. Then they just don't have a shooter pool to draw from for help.

 

Sounds like they REALLY need someone to hold there hand and really show them what it takes to put one on.

 

Hope they figure it out. Sure sounds like a nice place. And sounds like they are running out of chances for some.

 

I went to a montly match there last November and there were only five or six shooters........

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Well, if Texican Rangers get a big turnout and Tin Star doesn't, maybe Micky and Col. Callan need to go over to Texican Rangers and see how it's done!

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Congratulation Concho Billy for shooting a Clean Match!![/size]

 

Happy Trails

Navasota Kid

Wow.......was Concho Billy the only clean shooter? must have been a fun match :D

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How does a public castration of a club help it to improve and grow?

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Matthew- I don't think it's quite that. Perhaps if the folks at Tin Star read these posts they'll realize that many shooters were less than completely happy about things at the shoot. Especially if no one who's unhappy about things has the guts to TELL them! It's very easy to talk on here, but someone needs to let Mickey and Cherie know there is dissatisfaction.

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Matthew- I don't think it's quite that. Perhaps if the folks at Tin Star read these posts they'll realize that many shooters were less than completely happy about things at the shoot. Especially if no one who's unhappy about things has the guts to TELL them! It's very easy to talk on here, but someone needs to let Mickey and Cherie know there is dissatisfaction.

 

I believe they have...and ya know, sometimes folks don't make it easy to give constructive criticism. Perhaps they should be a bit more observent...ask for opinions and suggestions and then perhaps LISTEN and INCORPORATE some of them!

 

So let's not automatically assume that those voicing opinions here are nothing but back stabbin, bitchin and whinin, lowdown chickensh**s.

 

:(

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I was just lookin' at the scores and noticed they have gone to total time instead of rank points. Should make you happy Phantom. I don't care for it. Can't tell how I did on any individual stage without a major effort. Something else to consider before(if) we go again.

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I was just lookin' at the scores and noticed they have gone to total time instead of rank points. Should make you happy Phantom. I don't care for it. Can't tell how I did on any individual stage without a major effort. Something else to consider before(if) we go again.

 

 

Was gong to say.

That this is one of the last things I look at when picking matches to go to.

But can not say that.

Because I don't look at that at all when picking matches to go to.

 

Target placement, stages, shooter friendly. YEP.

Scoreing. NOPE.

Will shoot a good match either way.

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I was just lookin' at the scores and noticed they have gone to total time instead of rank points. Should make you happy Phantom. I don't care for it. Can't tell how I did on any individual stage without a major effort. Something else to consider before(if) we go again.

 

Why do folk do this?

 

Should make me happy....yea, it does. I'm not going to turn this into a TT vs. RP debate. Perhaps you can PM me why you think that misses, P's and Safeties should be weighed differently. Perhaps you should tell me why you think that middle of the packers should be penalized more for a miss then those on the extreme end of the bell curve distribution of stage times...I'm allllll ears.

 

Oy!!

:lol:

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I was just lookin' at the scores and noticed they have gone to total time instead of rank points. Should make you happy Phantom. I don't care for it. Can't tell how I did on any individual stage without a major effort. Something else to consider before(if) we go again.

 

 

 

:lol: Weren't you there and shooting???? I can tell how I did on a stage after I did it. Don't need no score sheet to remind me niether.

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Wow.......was Concho Billy the only clean shooter? must have been a fun match :lol:

Cowhand, ....and another thing, Concho Billy did not slow down! Just good shootin'. And...It was a fun match even through I had 6 misses and a P.

 

Cowhand, please PM me Partner.

 

Ghost

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I was just lookin' at the scores and noticed they have gone to total time instead of rank points. Should make you happy Phantom. I don't care for it. Can't tell how I did on any individual stage without a major effort. Something else to consider before(if) we go again.

 

They evidently just showed the abbreviated scores.

 

I too like to see where I ranked on each stage as do many others. There is not reason not to show individual stage ranks whether the match is scored by rank or by total time. Many of us like the details - misses, penalties, bonus and rank.

 

I do this all the time for both types of matches, I just leave off the total rank if it is a total time match, since the total rank is then irrelevant.

For example:

http://www.gacowboy.com/10_match_results.htm

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Cowhand, ....and another thing, Concho Billy did not slow down! Just good shootin'. And...It was a fun match even through I had 6 misses and a P.

 

Cowhand, please PM me Partner.

 

Ghost

I was looking at the scores to see how many shooters shot clean. I couldn't tell or I was doing something wrong. I read here where Concho Billy shot clean and was wondering if he was the only one? I shot there before and know it aint easy to do. I had a good match. (I just slow down) and still had a few misses.

If I lived closer, I would be there more often. It's a very beautiful place! The wagon they had in front of the saloon was the best one I ever seen. The creek is also a great place to clean up before the match.

 

About the RT/TT....doesn't matter to me. I believe I have the ability and the right approach to do both.

Be happy and Merry Christmas to all!!!

Cowhand

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Well Pards,

 

If ya think this is a hard match to shoot due to far and small targets. I just don't know what to tell ya. Other than. I think that is crap. Everybody has to Whine about something

 

Why???????????????? Well let me tell ya why. I shot FC with my C&B Old Ruger Armys and came in 16Th overall with one miss and this was a stupid miss with the rifle. Now remember this is the first time I have ever shot these big ole 7 1/2"ers this way. There just weren't any other Frontiersman to shoot with. I thought there would be some other FCs out there. WRONG.

 

Bottom line is when someone like me can shoot that fast with that few of misses. Maybe something at this shoot is OK. Trust me there were a lot of great shooters there thatt shot real fast.

 

You be the judge.

 

Wyandot

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Phantom- I'm not trying to start a new debate or anything. You like TT, I prefer RP. There. We're done with that discussion. To each his own.

Yeah, I can tell how I did after shooting a stage. At Tin Star that weekend, not too good! RP makes it easier to tell how I did in comparison to the GOOD shooters. Once again, not too good!

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Phantom- I'm not trying to start a new debate or anything. You like TT, I prefer RP. There. We're done with that discussion. To each his own.

Yeah, I can tell how I did after shooting a stage. At Tin Star that weekend, not too good! RP makes it easier to tell how I did in comparison to the GOOD shooters. Once again, not too good!

 

Sorry Tell...got a little touchy cuz I'm sick and I didn't want to get into the TT vs RP thing.

 

:mellow:

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I was looking at the scores to see how many shooters shot clean. I couldn't tell or I was doing something wrong. I read here where Concho Billy shot clean and was wondering if he was the only one? I shot there before and know it aint easy to do. I had a good match. (I just slow down) and still had a few misses.

If I lived closer, I would be there more often. It's a very beautiful place! The wagon they had in front of the saloon was the best one I ever seen. The creek is also a great place to clean up before the match.

 

About the RT/TT....doesn't matter to me. I believe I have the ability and the right approach to do both.

Be happy and Merry Christmas to all!!!

Cowhand

 

Merry Christmas to you Cowhand

 

I think it might be a little too cold to be a "Freak in the Creek" right now but I did think about y'all when we drove past.....

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Merry Christmas to you Cowhand

 

I think it might be a little too cold to be a "Freak in the Creek" right now but I did think about y'all when we drove past.....

 

Yea...every damn time I drove by the creek I got that...image...in my head.

 

:wacko:

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I HAVE talked to Jim and Cherry and they don't seem to know either. I DO know that they are frustrated by trying to please everyone, and that can't be done.

I would just hate that such a great place to shoot could go away from lack of support and participation.

 

I'm sure that "Jim & Cherry" are aware of this thread, yet I don't think either has posted to encourage the posters to contact them. Fred, I know why I don't shoot there and have made the owners aware of it.

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Here is a video of one of the stages, it gives you a pretty good idea of the stage design used throughout the match. Yes, after taking forever to line it up I missed the 10 sec(?!) bonus target. Dang. Decide for yourselves, I thought it was a kinda like shooting THSS uphill with wider spaced targets.

 

 

Here is one more but you can't see anything but pistol targets.

 

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Here is a video of one of the stages, it gives you a pretty good idea of the stage design used throughout the match. Yes, after taking forever to line it up I missed the 10 sec(?!) bonus target. Dang. Decide for yourselves, I thought it was a kinda like shooting THSS uphill with wider spaced targets.

 

 

Here is one more but you can't see anything but pistol targets.

 

 

Hey you Young Whippersnapper. At least I can say I beat ya on that one :blink: Next time we are together I will be more than glad to give you some Wyandot Jim schooling on LONG RANGE SHOOTING :D I have spent a lot of time doing that at THSS and Tejas Pistoleros. :FlagAm: Welcome to my world Son. Really it was good seeing you again.

Take care

WJ

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Targets close or far! Targets big or small! Really what difference does it make? Everybody is shooting on the same playing field at a match.

 

Maybe we need to look at some of the other "speed and accuracy" matches such as IDPA and 3 Gun. Many of their targets are smaller than the "normal" CAS target and many times pistol targets are at 25 yards and sometimes the target is moving pretty fast. The people shooting those matches seem to be able to hit their targets at a very fast speed.

 

I know, those are a different sport, but why not just accept the targets as presented and do the best you can. It's only a game!

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Your absolutely right Jonah:) Shoot where the targets are at and do your best. I actually enjoy shooting THSS so I wasn't saying it was a horrible thing. I shoot IDPA and a little 3 Gun too, accuracy is def more paramount but that is why I like shooting in different disciplines, their different:) Cowboy shooting is still the most fun for me and has some of the absolutely best people in the world IMHO.

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Been reading through this thread... I shot last year's Tin Star Christmas shoot. Gunstock Smith and I planned on being there again this year cuz I want to shoot a BP night shoot, but we went deer hunting instead and I got my second buck!! Sorry, Fred, you know I love to shoot with you! The BP night shoot will have to wait until we go to Winter Range..... can't wait... :rolleyes:

 

Miss Cubbie

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