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Knarley Bob

Any "Out of the box" shooters?

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You and Oddnews should get together. We could call y'all the Odd Couple.But wait. That would involve doing something. And not just talk.

Never mind. That won't happen. They would rather just yak about it than do it.

:FlagAm:;):D And Buck D Law you say that I'm not right? It took me a while to post because I had to clean the coffee off of my keyboard, monitor and walls. AA- you should warn a feller that kinda stuff is coming.

 

Wild Shot, thanks for cleaning up my post. Really I didn't mean to say A** my fingers just slipped... sort of like a slip-hammer, but it went off.

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I don't know you from Adam so I come to this discussion with a completely unbiased point of view. From what I recall, the only time you and I have ever chatted about anything was when discussing allowing expansion of the adjustable sight rules. You made some very good points then so I'm hoping you can do that again with my next questions. This may seem obvious but, if you can only manage to shoot once a year, why are you so Hell bent on forming an entire new category in the first place? Or for that matter, why would an organization, ANY organization, make such a drastic change to its rules for a memeber who didn't support said organization any more than you do? Would you then work to change your schedule to allow you to shoot more? Please don't take that as being mean spirited, it's most certainly not meant to be. Just simple curiosity.

 

I was a shooter and a match director for eight or nine years, and I love and care about the sport. I distinctly hope that I can go back to shooting as I once did, as I miss it very greatly. The fact that I don't get to participate the way I'd like to does not diminish my passion for nor concern about the sport and its rules. It doesn't look like they're moving me this summer, maybe I can shoot more and get that particular criticism off my back.

 

But I'll take exception to one thing -- I'm not calling for a "drastic" change to the rules. Anyone competing with a short stroke, modified gun today would still be doing so tomorrow with the sort of change I envision -- there would merely be the same courtesy extended to those of us who don't use unmodified equipment as is extended to people who shoot BP; shoot with one hand; dress B-western, etc. That's not all that drastic in my view.

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My point is proved. The first response came from someone whining about whining. Perfect. Then the nay sayers with their attempts to make you think that the rules cannot be enforced. We have a limit on the length of short strokes. Cannot that be enforced? It can. Then there are those that want everyone to believe that a stock class means you cannot tune the firearm. That is like saying that stock cars must be rolled off the showroom floor and raced without so much as a change of spark plugs. Foolishness at its best.

 

Then we get the "Why can't you just be happy and shoot in the categories that allow short strokes, choke tubes, modified hammers and all the other mods?" Why don't we allow smokeless powder in the black powder categories? That is simple to answer. So simple, it doesn't even need to be answered. But there are those who love the modified firearms who have numerous categories to shoot in who will begrudge those who have a different notion a single category of their own. Then we get the "Go join NCOWS crowd." Oh, how proud I am to be a member of an organization who welcomes this sort of nonsense. Proud indeed.

 

Thanks for so soundly proving my point.

 

Then we get your response, QED!

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I was a shooter and a match director for eight or nine years, and I love and care about the sport. I distinctly hope that I can go back to shooting as I once did, as I miss it very greatly. The fact that I don't get to participate the way I'd like to does not diminish my passion for nor concern about the sport and its rules. It doesn't look like they're moving me this summer, maybe I can shoot more and get that particular criticism off my back.

 

But I'll take exception to one thing -- I'm not calling for a "drastic" change to the rules. Anyone competing with a short stroke, modified gun today would still be doing so tomorrow with the sort of change I envision -- there would merely be the same courtesy extended to those of us who don't use unmodified equipment as is extended to people who shoot BP; shoot with one hand; dress B-western, etc. That's not all that drastic in my view.

 

At least make an attempt to get the Wild Bunch put it on the agenda for the SASS TG Summit. Then watch it go down in a ball of flames when it doesn't get the 2/3 majority. At least then you could quit whining about it.

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I suppose it depends on how you define "out of the box." There's nothing done to my guns that wasn't done before 1900 -- no short-strokes, coil springs, etc. The internals have been polished, and I've either put a leather pad under the mainspring or purchased Wolf springs for my revolvers -- but these are "period correct" modifications. I used an Uberti 1873 just as it came out of the box for a long time, but now it has a tang sight.

 

 

Here is where one of your problems exist. WHO is to determine the definition of 'Modified'?

 

In my opin, your firearms have been modified. You called them "Period Correct" modifications.

 

And don't get me wrong, thats fine with me. But WHO will be the Stock Category CZAR to oversee this?

 

What is Stock?

What is Modified?

What is 'Period Correct' modification?

 

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder (hey, my Widdermatic and Widdermajik could be considered Stock because there is nothing done to them that couldn't have been done in 1894 with a good file and sand paper. No new parts have been added and no parts taken out. Just a couple springs and they originally came from the factory with coil springs.

 

Just a thought!

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GKC

 

Let's say I take your advice. Before I even go to the TG's, I want to know your objections to the idea.

 

So far I've hears

 

1. It can't be policed.

 

My real response to that is that if we can't police whether or not a rifle has a short stroke, then we are even less able to police whether or not an existing short stroke is within the rules, but we're able to do that. This also seems to assume that most people would cheat, but my experience is that most SASS shooters aren't cheaters.

 

2. We already have too many categories.

 

And I agree -- personally, I'd rather see one of the existing categories modified so that it doesn't allow short strokes -- maybe one that already attracts a heavy number of "real life Old West" shooters: Classic Cowboy or BP (yes, I'd be willing to shoot BP if this is what it takes).

 

Those are the only substantive objections I've heard, and I can't see that they're insurmountable. Let's at least have a real discussion of other objections, if they exist.

 

Upstream in this discussion someone linked to a bunch of the excellent Freedom Arms revolvers and asked if they'd be allowed in this category. I think under the current rules, the answer would be "yes" unless the "no-short strokes" category is placed inside another category that bans them (No, I'm not wild about this fact, but I think it is a fact given the current rules -- no one ever gave me a vote on whether we should do away with the Modern category).

 

Are there other substantive objections -- merely saying that I'm unwilling to do the work isn't an objection as you don't know, for a fact, that I won't (you only know that I haven't). If I'm going to take this on, let's break it down fully.

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GKC

 

Let's say I take your advice. Before I even go to the TG's, I want to know your objections to the idea.

 

So far I've hears

 

1. It can't be policed.

 

My real response to that is that if we can't police whether or not a rifle has a short stroke, then we are even less able to police whether or not an existing short stroke is within the rules, but we're able to do that. This also seems to assume that most people would cheat, but my experience is that most SASS shooters aren't cheaters.

 

2. We already have too many categories.

 

And I agree -- personally, I'd rather see one of the existing categories modified so that it doesn't allow short strokes -- maybe one that already attracts a heavy number of "real life Old West" shooters: Classic Cowboy or BP (yes, I'd be willing to shoot BP if this is what it takes).

 

Those are the only substantive objections I've heard, and I can't see that they're insurmountable. Let's at least have a real discussion of other objections, if they exist.

 

Upstream in this discussion someone linked to a bunch of the excellent Freedom Arms revolvers and asked if they'd be allowed in this category. I think under the current rules, the answer would be "yes" unless the "no-short strokes" category is placed inside another category that bans them (No, I'm not wild about this fact, but I think it is a fact given the current rules -- no one ever gave me a vote on whether we should do away with the Modern category).

 

Are there other substantive objections -- merely saying that I'm unwilling to do the work isn't an objection as you don't know, for a fact, that I won't (you only know that I haven't). If I'm going to take this on, let's break it down fully.

 

You have had all these discussions over and over and over again. You don't need my input. It is time to go to the Wild Bunch directly. I am sure Tex will love it. Good Luck.

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Here is where one of your problems exist. WHO is to determine the definition of 'Modified'?

 

In my opin, your firearms have been modified. You called them "Period Correct" modifications.

 

And don't get me wrong, thats fine with me. But WHO will be the Stock Category CZAR to oversee this?

 

What is Stock?

What is Modified?

What is 'Period Correct' modification?

 

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder (hey, my Widdermatic and Widdermajik could be considered Stock because there is nothing done to them that couldn't have been done in 1894 with a good file and sand paper. No new parts have been added and no parts taken out. Just a couple springs and they originally came from the factory with coil springs.

 

Just a thought!

 

OK, that's a legitimate point -- and one reason I think any such rules change should be put inside a category that excludes more modern arms (although as I said above, right now those wouldn't be excluded -- we're talking theory here).

 

To me this is simple: For any replica guns or guns made in the period -- no changes to their internal geometry so that their actions operate differently than can be achieved through normal slicking up. No short stroke shorter than factory throw length -- new models to be reviewed (the way Henry Big Boy, USFA Optimator, etc. are reviewed) to make certain they are not factory attempts to circumvent the rule. The Widdermatic might satisfy my view of this rule -- I frankly don't know enough about the Widdermatic to know.

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You have had all these discussions over and over and over again. You don't need my input. It is time to go to the Wild Bunch directly. I am sure Tex will love it. Good Luck.

 

OK, you have nothing substantive to offer. Thank you for your input.

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I was going through my saved CAS stuff in Word. I often copy a reply to Word for the fifteen minute rule. Often they just sit in the file and never get posted. This came about from a thread simular to this one in April of 07. Allie Mo scolded some of us for the tone of our posts. She suggested we wait 15 minutes to post our reply to make sure that's what we really want to say. I decided then that all of my posts would be positive or informitive, so I've had to use the 15 minute rule a bunch since then. Here's one from April of 09 on the same topic that I never posted. I don't think it's offensive, only a suggestion, plus it shows the results of what happens when like minded folks get together.

 

quote name='Oddnews SASS# 24779' date='Apr 14 2009, 11:14 PM' post='1591266']

I don't want a stock guns category. I want a category where guns are modified only in ways they would have been before 1900.

Pard, it's really simple, all you gotta do is go to a match and start. I've only been around CAS bout four years, but from the first time I visited the SASS wire, there was a five page thread going about you wanting a no short stroke category. Since then there have been at least three or four successful sub categories started around the country. None of these to my knowledge started here on the wire, they started on the ground at a match. Once they became popular at a match, support for them on the wire grew. If you would go to a match, even if you don't shoot, you would find alota folks shooting categories not recognized by SASS. Many of these sub categories can be found at regional, state and large annual matches. Just to name a few;

 

Josey Wales

4 main match pistols (either cap and ball or standard cartridge) and a double barrel or lever shotgun.

Pistols shot duelist or gun fighter one pair on person in holsters. Second pair will be staged where rifle would normally be staged. Posse will assist in getting all back to table.

 

Pale Rider Category

Full-load BP shooters shooting Duelist AND Gunfighter (Separate categories):

Load requirements.

 

Revolver and Rifle:

40 caliber and above

200 grain projectile

25 grains by volume of BP or SASS-approved BP substitute

*note: 38-40 shooters may use a 180 grain projectile BUT must use 30 grains by volume of BP/sub.

 

Shotgun:

 

Double or 87 Only

60 grs by volume of BP/sub

1 1/8 oz or more of shot

 

Plainsman

Cap and Ball pistols shot duelist style, lever action shotgun or double barrel only, single shot rifle caliber rifle, light loads so as not to damage the targets and the fact close range. Plainsman will fire half the rifle rounds as called for on the stage.

 

Categories

For those with their “I wish it was a SASS Category” style of shooting (within reason), this is your big chance to do so at a State Match, and, if you have a few pards that want to shoot that style as well, get an award for doing so. For you pards, like that bunch of “Outlaw” shooters in Tennessee that tried to corrupt my morals at the Tennessee State Match, that always wanted to shoot Black Powder Gunfighter, Senior Gunfighter, Outlaw, Pale Rider, Modern diehards, etc. this is your big chance.

 

Outlaw

All firearms shot from the hip.

 

In addition, we are offering the opening of the match to different non-SASS recognized categories, such as Frontier Cowboy (Classic Cowboy shooting only Black Powder). So if you can get 5 or more people as demented as you are, we can include your category in the main match and recognize it at the awards ceremony

 

 

I copied and pasted all of these from a couple state match pages. As you can see there are plenty of clubs more than willing to recognize a non SASS category, not only at the local level, but state matches and many more. At our state match if you can round up five or more shooters, they will recognize the category and include it in the awards ceremony. I shoot BPGF knowing it's not an approved category, however it is recognized at four out of five of the states matches I attended. Heck I even win our monthly match, cause I'm the only one shooting BPGF. The bottom line is the opportunity is there. It's time to put away the drum, step away from the keyboard, put the boots on the ground, and go to a match. That's how you grow a category. Good Luck.

 

Jefro :FlagAm: Relax-Enjoy

 

 

 

Jefro

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GKC

 

Before I even go to the TG's, I want to know your objections to the idea.

 

 

All the years you have been harping on this. And you have not even got THAT far??

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All the years you have been harping on this. And you have not even got THAT far??

 

Let's assume I'm comparing these to previous notes, so that there aren't any redundancies in the presentation.

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Not about winning, losing or whining -- it's about the fantasy. My fantasy doesn't include guns that don't operate as they did in the Old West, and I want to compete against people using the same sort of guns, not modern ones.

 

No different than the set aside made for gunfighter, duellist, BP, Frontier Cartridge, etcetera.

 

 

 

If you really want the complete fantasy, ride a horse or a horse/mule drawn cart to the next match. Don't worry about a gun cart, that's what the horse is for. Saddlebag on the

horse for your ammo. Canteen for your beverage. After the two day (or more) ride, what could be more relaxing than shooting stock guns?

 

Oh, almost forgot, you have to ride the horse home also........you know, for the fantasy to be complete and all.

 

C.S.

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If you really want the complete fantasy, ride a horse or a horse/mule drawn cart to the next match. Don't worry about a gun cart, that's what the horse is for. Saddlebag on the

horse for your ammo. Canteen for your beverage. After the two day (or more) ride, what could be more relaxing than shooting stock guns?

 

Oh, almost forgot, you have to ride the horse home also........you know, for the fantasy to be complete and all.

 

C.S.

 

The fantasy is at the firing line, the same place where the competition is (the place where the gunfight is going on). I'll stick to my Mustang for getting to the range (but it's an '05, made by Ford).

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So. In other words. You are not doing one thing in all this time to get a stock categoy except yak on the wire??

 

Just so we are all clear on how much you really want it.

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So. In other words. You are not doing one thing in all this time to get a stock categoy except yak on the wire??

 

Just so we are all clear on how much you really want it.

 

I mean no insult when I say I don't think you're reading carefully enough. I'm now gathering data so that I can do something (even though that something may not use the same approach you would use).

 

Do you have data to contribute?

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I mean no insult when I say I don't think you're reading carefully enough. I'm now gathering data so that I can do something (even though that something may not use the same approach you would use).

 

Do you have data to contribute?

 

Now you're just doin a Bisley Joe.

 

Many folks have given ideas...right down to category name suggestions.

 

So to now sit here and pretend as if this is all a brand new discussion is beyond belief.

 

You obviously are nothing more then a follower...may I suggest that you find a LEADER that will champion your cause? Because if you soooo dearly desire to have this "Stock" class, then you must admit that the ability to get it off the ground far exceeds your capabilities.

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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I mean no insult when I say I don't think you're reading carefully enough. I'm now gathering data so that I can do something (even though that something may not use the same approach you would use).

 

Do you have data to contribute?

 

 

You have been at this for YEARS.

How long to you need to gather data???

How many YEARS does it take??

 

You and the Riv really are a pair.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
OK, that's a legitimate point -- and one reason I think any such rules change should be put inside a category that excludes more modern arms (although as I said above, right now those wouldn't be excluded -- we're talking theory here).

 

To me this is simple: For any replica guns or guns made in the period -- no changes to their internal geometry so that their actions operate differently than can be achieved through normal slicking up. No short stroke shorter than factory throw length -- new models to be reviewed (the way Henry Big Boy, USFA Optimator, etc. are reviewed) to make certain they are not factory attempts to circumvent the rule. The Widdermatic might satisfy my view of this rule -- I frankly don't know enough about the Widdermatic to know.

 

 

Didn't you say somewhere that you only wanted guns with "modifications" that could only have been done in the 19th Century?

 

Would that mean the Rugers with transfer bars and Marlins with Ballard Groves are out because neither was around in the 1800s?

 

But here's another thought for you, how many "Gun Men", "Assasins", "Gun Fighters" do you think "modified" their guns in the Old West? To my knowledge, most all did. From cutting off hammer spurs and trigger guards, to shortening barrels, I beieve most (if not all) who were in the business of "Gun Fighting" had their pistols "modified" in one way or another.

 

And aren't those the people we're supposedly mimicking or portraying here. Heck, the last time I checked there weren't a whole lot of folks in SASS who took the persona of the Stock Tender who shovels manure in the Livery Stable.

 

We are all Shootists. We portray people in gun battles. Why shouldn't our guns be "modified" or "tuned" in the same way as those people who we are simulating. The Gun Fighter Category is full of Wyatt Earps, Doc Holidays and the rest. Go to a match and check it out.

 

Pard, you told me that you "have no problem with having work done to anyone's guns, so long as that work is the sort of work that could have been done in the pre-1898 era SASS says it wants to portray."

 

The modifications that I sited are exactly what was done in the Old West. I know because I've seen them in museums.

 

So if I show up with "modified" hammers "modified" just as they did in the Old West, would my "modification" be OK? Do you see my point? Those in the business of shooting others took every advantage that they could either afford or think of to do what they did best.

 

You say that it is an advantage is someone in says "tunes up", "short strokes", or has some other work done to their guns. You say that some folks here in SASS "modify" their guns to seek an advantage. But Pard, guess what ... it's not considered an "advantage" if everyone can do the same thing. And there's nothing stopping anyone in SASS as long as the stay with the set Rules.

 

Pard, like it or not because of SASS Rules where everyone can do all of the same things as anyone else to their guns, the only "advantage" someone has over another in this sport comes from what Brother King said in an earlier post, "dedication, determination and talent." Oh, and also, "practice, practice, practice."

 

That's how I see it.

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I know! Let's dig a hole to China! Everybody who wants to dig a hole to China come to my house Saturday! We'll dig 'till we get tired and if we don't make it to China, we can always just toss in a dead horse and fill the hole back in!

 

What? You say China ain't on the opposite side of the Earth? Why, what in the wide world of sports does fact have to do with anything? This is the Wire where fantasies come true and even if they don't, you can still argue that they would if only...............well, you can't prove that China would not be there until you dig a hole all the way through the Earth....'cause nobody's done it...and until they do...well...the inside of the Earth might be warped like space for all we know.

 

If I'm not there when it's time to start digging, ya'll go ahead and start without me! I'm expecting a huge turnout! Who's bringin' the beer? Be sure to let me know when you will arrive with the beer so I can be sure to be back from my...uh...errands. :FlagAm:

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And you have the unmitigated audacity to swear that it's ME that ain't right! Go ahead- laugh- I got my hole already started. :FlagAm:

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And you have the unmitigated audacity to swear that it's ME that ain't right! Go ahead- laugh- I got my hole already started. :FlagAm:

 

Dang if we ain't screwed before we start. You see, everybody can't dig their own dang hole and this thing work. Tell you what, you just bring the beer and we'll see who else shows up to dig. And quit using words that I have to look up! Unmitigated my...(looking for an A word here)...audacity! Now, I done already knowed that there word audacity. I use Audacity to make little ringy tones fer ma sale fone.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
GKC

 

Let's say I take your advice. Before I even go to the TG's, I want to know your objections to the idea.

 

So far I've hears

 

1. It can't be policed.

 

My real response to that is that if we can't police whether or not a rifle has a short stroke, then we are even less able to police whether or not an existing short stroke is within the rules, but we're able to do that. This also seems to assume that most people would cheat, but my experience is that most SASS shooters aren't cheaters.

 

2. We already have too many categories.

 

And I agree -- personally, I'd rather see one of the existing categories modified so that it doesn't allow short strokes -- maybe one that already attracts a heavy number of "real life Old West" shooters: Classic Cowboy or BP (yes, I'd be willing to shoot BP if this is what it takes).

 

Those are the only substantive objections I've heard, and I can't see that they're insurmountable. Let's at least have a real discussion of other objections, if they exist.

 

Upstream in this discussion someone linked to a bunch of the excellent Freedom Arms revolvers and asked if they'd be allowed in this category. I think under the current rules, the answer would be "yes" unless the "no-short strokes" category is placed inside another category that bans them (No, I'm not wild about this fact, but I think it is a fact given the current rules -- no one ever gave me a vote on whether we should do away with the Modern category).

 

Are there other substantive objections -- merely saying that I'm unwilling to do the work isn't an objection as you don't know, for a fact, that I won't (you only know that I haven't). If I'm going to take this on, let's break it down fully.

 

It can't be Policed ... meaning that if it is a Category purely set up based on the "equipement" being used and nothing else ... then someone has got to be assigned to check the "equipment" to see if all persons signing up for that Category actually qualifies for that Category.

 

Afterall we wouldn't want a "post-1900 modification" to slip into the Category and taint the competition.

 

And as for too many Categories, yes we have too many Categories already. It's gotten rediculous.

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I know! Let's dig a hole to China! Everybody who wants to dig a hole to China come to my house Saturday! We'll dig 'till we get tired and if we don't make it to China, we can always just toss in a dead horse and fill the hole back in!

 

What? You say China ain't on the opposite side of the Earth? Why, what in the wide world of sports does fact have to do with anything? This is the Wire where fantasies come true and even if they don't, you can still argue that they would if only...............well, you can't prove that China would not be there until you dig a hole all the way through the Earth....'cause nobody's done it...and until they do...well...the inside of the Earth might be warped like space for all we know.

 

If I'm not there when it's time to start digging, ya'll go ahead and start without me! I'm expecting a huge turnout! Who's bringin' the beer? Be sure to let me know when you will arrive with the beer so I can be sure to be back from my...uh...errands. :FlagAm:

 

 

 

Hey Buck, sorry about your horse.

 

Can't get there to help ya bury it though.

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It's painfully obvious that Oddnews is TROLLING because Jefro gave the most reasoned response in this entire thread in post #220.

 

Oddnews has totally ignored Jefro, yet he posted responses to posters AFTER Jefro in an attempt to keep himself in the limelight and make them defend themselves instead of answering Jefro.

 

His tactics have become way too obvious.

 

Ignore him.

 

I'm just trying to give this poor deceased equine the proper burial it deserves...unless y'all are really that bored.

 

 

It's not like most of you don't already know this, but.....

 

"There are a number of different types of trolls. In the most classic case, a troll harasses an Internet community for a few weeks, posting contradictory opinions or statements on bulletin boards in an attempt to stimulate a response. Internet trolls are differentiated from people who genuinely wish to present a different viewpoint by their attitudes and aggressiveness; their goal is not to discuss a situation, but to frustrate the members of a discussion board. They often use fallacious arguments or attack the users of a site when they attempt to defend themselves from the troll's activities.

 

In some cases, a troll becomes a recurring figure who is well known by long-term members of a bulletin board. The individuals often tell newcomers to the community to ignore the troll, who may use various tactics to get a rise from newbies. In more serious cases, an Internet troll may try to drive a wedge through a community, often with the assistance of sock puppet accounts. A sock puppet is a fake identity which is used by someone who does not want to post under his or her regular name; some trolls have multitudes of sock puppets to make their side of an argument look like it has a large number of supporters. "

 

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html

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Oddnews, you are wasting your breath on the nay sayers. Like I said before, they have nothing to add and they have no power to stop you. All they can do is throw up nonsensical reasons for why you can't do what will be done. They ask you what you have done, when they themselves have done nothing. Just how lazy do you have to be to do that? There are a handful of folks around here that have shown an interest in a stock category. I imagine that any new category starts in a similar manner. The club I shoot at most is small, but the shooters there shoot at several other clubs. I imagine it will take time for anything we do to trickle outward to the other clubs.

 

Frankly, almost no one I shoot with posts on The Wire, which tells you just how little what you hear on The Wire really has to do with anything at the matches. I don't know what you do for a living, and personally I don't believe you owe anyone here on The wire an apology for having a career that keeps you from shooting. My slow season is from mid January to late July, which is when I can shoot most. From August on, I have little time to shoot. This Fall, I decided that I would spend my free time hunting, rather than shooting CAS. Frankly, this is the first season since my stroke I have felt well enough to hunt. I have no regrets about my decision. But, those that want to see you fail will ask why it is taking you so long, as if they care what your time frame is, or that your success has anything to do with what they think. It doesn't, so don't waste your breath answering the any sayers.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
Oddnews, you are wasting your breath on the nay sayers. Like I said before, they have nothing to add and they have no power to stop you. All they can do is throw up nonsensical reasons for why you can't do what will be done. They ask you what you have done, when they themselves have done nothing. Just how lazy do you have to be to do that? There are a handful of folks around here that have shown an interest in a stock category. I imagine that any new category starts in a similar manner. The club I shoot at most is small, but the shooters there shoot at several other clubs. I imagine it will take time for anything we do to trickle outward to the other clubs.

 

Frankly, almost no one I shoot with posts on The Wire, which tells you just how little what you hear on The Wire really has to do with anything at the matches. I don't know what you do for a living, and personally I don't believe you owe anyone here on The wire an apology for having a career that keeps you from shooting. My slow season is from mid January to late July, which is when I can shoot most. From August on, I have little time to shoot. This Fall, I decided that I would spend my free time hunting, rather than shooting CAS. Frankly, this is the first season since my stroke I have felt well enough to hunt. I have no regrets about my decision. But, those that want to see you fail will ask why it is taking you so long, as if they care what your time frame is, or that your success has anything to do with what they think. It doesn't, so don't waste your breath answering the any sayers.

 

Rev,

 

Just curiosity, but how has your own club accepted the idea of a "Stock Gun" Category?

 

What sort of reception has it gotten where you shoot?

 

Have you talked to local Match Directors about this?

 

What parameters do you use at your club to determine who shoots in that Category?

 

How do you determine elegibility? And who determines it?

 

I'm curious because I would think that that's where you start if you want to start a new Category, ie; at the local level. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the way some Categories like the "Josie Wales" started?

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You obviously haven't been following along. Furthermore, I have little faith that you actually have any real interest here, except to stir the pot. Perhaps if you actually followed along, you would already know the answer to your questions. Certainly you would at least know that I believe the local level is where it should start. Given that I don't shoot at the national level, anything outside my region holds little interest with me. And, correcting you when you are wrong isn't something I have time for either. I already have a full time job. :FlagAm:

 

But, for your amusement:

 

Rev,

 

Just curiosity, but how has your own club accepted the idea of a "Stock Gun" Category? They are open to new categories, including a Stock Category.

 

What sort of reception has it gotten where you shoot? A handful of shooters are interested (that's perhaps 5, out of 30 regulars at the club where I shoot) I shoot at two other clubs where between 65 and 90 shooters typically show up. All of us shoot at those clubs, but I have not taken the time to discuss it with members of those clubs yet. I simply have not had time since July, which was when I was just getting started on arrainging for a group of us to shoot.

 

Have you talked to local Match Directors about this? Yes

 

What parameters do you use at your club to determine who shoots in that Category? Anyone, with any SASS legal caliber, no short strokes, no choke tubes, no modified hammers, tuning and slicking is allowed.

How do you determine elegibility? And who determines it? We are considering the honor system at this time, until we can come to some conclusion on measurable parameters for the short strokes. Choke tubes and modified hammers are easy to spot. But, so far, no one I have talked to seems to have any issue with the notion that they have to show their firearms to the MD before they shoot. Given that no one who wants to shoot the stock category is interested in Winning a match as Top Gun, there really is no impetus to cheat.

 

I'm curious because I would think that that's where you start if you want to start a new Category, ie; at the local level. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the way some Categories like the "Josie Wales" started?

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PC, Ballard rifling is the type used in the 19th Century. Perhaps you meant to say the new-fangled "micro-groove" rifling wasn't around back then. And there have never been groves in barrels, groves are for trees.

 

We will never have a stock category for the simple reason that there is NO demand for one. None. Zero. Nada. Only the two folks prominent on this thread advocate for one. Every newb I ever saw was only shooting out of the box guns out of necessity and only just until they could upgrade. If there were the least interest in any kind of a stock category, rest assured there would have been one created long ago. But there's just not. Never hoppen, GI.

 

I have no ideer what whinning is, not that I'm whining ya unnerstand. Maybe some activity done down in da groves.

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You have been at this for YEARS.

How long to you need to gather data???

How many YEARS does it take??

 

You and the Riv really are a pair.

 

Sometimes something worth doing takes time. I've never heard of anyone paying premium dollars for an instant bottle of wine.

 

And more data is always valuable than less data.

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Oddnews, you are wasting your breath on the nay sayers. Like I said before, they have nothing to add and they have no power to stop you. All they can do is throw up nonsensical reasons for why you can't do what will be done. They ask you what you have done, when they themselves have done nothing. Just how lazy do you have to be to do that? There are a handful of folks around here that have shown an interest in a stock category. I imagine that any new category starts in a similar manner. The club I shoot at most is small, but the shooters there shoot at several other clubs. I imagine it will take time for anything we do to trickle outward to the other clubs.

 

Frankly, almost no one I shoot with posts on The Wire, which tells you just how little what you hear on The Wire really has to do with anything at the matches. I don't know what you do for a living, and personally I don't believe you owe anyone here on The wire an apology for having a career that keeps you from shooting. My slow season is from mid January to late July, which is when I can shoot most. From August on, I have little time to shoot. This Fall, I decided that I would spend my free time hunting, rather than shooting CAS. Frankly, this is the first season since my stroke I have felt well enough to hunt. I have no regrets about my decision. But, those that want to see you fail will ask why it is taking you so long, as if they care what your time frame is, or that your success has anything to do with what they think. It doesn't, so don't waste your breath answering the any sayers.

 

You're dellusional...

 

How many times have the "Nay Sayers" told you wackos to go and get it done at your local level and see how it goes? I'll tell ya - many times!!!!

 

You belittle the value of the Wire yet you and Oddie keep coming on the Wire with your desires for this "Stock" class...that's just really weird ;)

 

Like I said, Allie Mo did so much to try and help you guys...working on a name...and rule ideas...she doesn't want the "Stock" class for herself yet she did more then you and Oddness have done combined. Why? Because she's a DO'er and not a WHINNER!

 

Again, you and Oddness have proven that the Bisley Joe Complex was not unique to him.

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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:FlagAm: If I remember right, last time a stock catergory was brought up it was because "we cant compete" then it was realized that Shalako Joe won EOT a couple of years ago using a non short stroked '73 so that kind of dropped that argument.

 

 

How about a Beretta Renegade that comes factory short stroked ? its stock out of box

 

 

At a club level you might get something started somewhere,but I doubt anything would happen above that folks seem to be against any new catergories as well.

 

 

Good luck AO

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It's painfully obvious that Oddnews is TROLLING because Jefro gave the most reasoned response in this entire thread in post #220.

 

Oddnews has totally ignored Jefro, yet he posted responses to posters AFTER Jefro in an attempt to keep himself in the limelight and make them defend themselves instead of answering Jefro.

 

His tactics have become way too obvious.

 

Ignore him.

 

I'm just trying to give this poor deceased equine the proper burial it deserves...unless y'all are really that bored.

 

 

It's not like most of you don't already know this, but.....

 

"There are a number of different types of trolls. In the most classic case, a troll harasses an Internet community for a few weeks, posting contradictory opinions or statements on bulletin boards in an attempt to stimulate a response. Internet trolls are differentiated from people who genuinely wish to present a different viewpoint by their attitudes and aggressiveness; their goal is not to discuss a situation, but to frustrate the members of a discussion board. They often use fallacious arguments or attack the users of a site when they attempt to defend themselves from the troll's activities.

 

In some cases, a troll becomes a recurring figure who is well known by long-term members of a bulletin board. The individuals often tell newcomers to the community to ignore the troll, who may use various tactics to get a rise from newbies. In more serious cases, an Internet troll may try to drive a wedge through a community, often with the assistance of sock puppet accounts. A sock puppet is a fake identity which is used by someone who does not want to post under his or her regular name; some trolls have multitudes of sock puppets to make their side of an argument look like it has a large number of supporters. "

 

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html

 

I didn't respond to Jefro because his "suggestion" is the same "you should start it yourself" suggestion I've heard a million times. I don't want to start a grass-roots local freak show, I want rules set across the board -- just like they did with the age based categories. Only one authority can do that, the Wild Bunch. I'm in communication with others outside this forum, and that's the way I choose to pursue the matter. If my sole source of change was this forum, that would also be my business. I've suffered the slings and arrows of everything from "it can't be policed" to depthy personal insult -- one more criticism isn't going to hurt me. Certainly being called a troll when I've been a SASS member and contributor on this forum for more than 12 years isn't going to bother me. It certainly won't stop me. I refuse to insult other people, and while I cannot require the same of them, I can assume that once they've elected to descend to insult rather than discussing the issue, their comments have less merit.

 

And I admit I don't understand the objection to what I propose, and I probably never will. Really, the only substantial argument is "it can't be policed" and that is a humbug. It is far easier to tell the difference between a rifle that has been short stroked and one that hasn't been, than it is to tell the difference between two rifles which have been short stroked to different degrees, yet we can police that enough to limit, with the rules, the amount of short stroke. How come, then, it would is impossible to police the difference between something that HAS been short stroked and something that HAS NOT been? The logic certainly escapes me.

 

Personally, I admit to a completely negative emotional response to short-stroked guns in any sport that calls itself "cowboy" action shooting and says it's based on the Old West. Short-strokes have the same relationship to the Old West that Glocks have -- neither were there. And for all that, I'm not trying to ban short strokes, revoke the Covenant, or make any drastic rule change. I just want one portion of the sport set aside for those of us who don't want to use the blasted things in the same category with people who do.

 

And I don't regard the matter as a "deceased equine" (I admire your choice of words, by the way -- very clever and amusing). It will be dead when there aren't people like me and the Rev., or when SASS quits saying its the next best thing to a time machine.

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You are right Riv.

I have not done anything to get a stock category going. BECAUSE I am not the one wanting it. YOU ARE.

If you say folk in your area want it. Then WHY have you not started it??? Please tell me???

You have had a few YEARS to get it started.

 

Oddnews. Yes it might take a little time. BUT YEARS??? Even at a local level????? YEARS????

 

Sure did not take that long for some of the other categories to pop up. I am seeing Outlaw category all over the place. ALong with Josey Wales, Pale Rider.

 

There are doers and talkers. Both of you are just a bunch of talk.

 

You both seem to be waiting for someone else to do it for you.

 

Collecting data you say.

After you being is SASS this long. And yaking about this for YEARS. You should have all the data you need.

 

Where is a working outline of your category??? You have had years.

Would you not want to give the WB a working outline of your category??

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You are right Riv.

I have not done anything to get a stock category going. BECAUSE I am not the one wanting it. YOU ARE.

If you say folk in your area want it. Then WHY have you not started it??? Please tell me???

You have had a few YEARS to get it started.

 

Oddnews. Yes it might take a little time. BUT YEARS??? Even at a local level????? YEARS????

 

Sure did not take that long for some of the other categories to pop up. I am seeing Outlaw category all over the place. ALong with Josey Wales, Pale Rider.

 

There are doers and talkers. Both of you are just a bunch of talk.

 

You both seem to be waiting for someone else to do it for you.

 

Collecting data you say.

After you being is SASS this long. And yaking about this for YEARS. You should have all the data you need.

 

Where is a working outline of your category??? You have had years.

Would you not want to give the WB a working outline of your category??

 

Yep, years. Decades if necessary.

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