Winchester Pump Main Match

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

There was an article in the new American Rifleman about the Winchester 1890 pump action .22.  I bet most of us are familiar with this rifle, and that many of us have one, one of it's "successor models"  or the replica by Rossi.  It's a great little rifle.

But there was something in the article I did not know that caught my eye.   There was an offhand comment about how the rifle was originally designed for the same cartridges that could be found in the 73, and 76 centerfire rifles, but they decided to make it a .22 only because they didn't want to be competing with themselves.

Well, needless to say, I found this very intriguing.  I found myself wondering about a great rifle that never was, but could have been.   And that leads me to the following speculation.   If someone, Uberti, Rossi, Chiappa, whoever, were to actually market a version of this rifle that could shoot "main match" calibers, would anyone be interested in it?   I have to be honest and say that I would be, even if I never used it for SASS, I think it'd be a cool one to have in the collection.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts on this very curious idea?

[Yul Lose]

I doubt that there would be enough interest in it to ever get it into production. The start up costs, design, tooling, etc.. nowadays would be huge.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE for Yul Lose.  No where near enough interest to even begin to amortize tooling and startup.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Oh, I know it'll never happen.   I just think it's an interesting what might have been kind of speculation.

[Yul Lose]

Don’t get me wrong, I love pump action rifles and would most certainly buy one if they produced them in 44-40 but that ain’t ever going to happen.

[Michigan Slim]

I would snap up a couple. I had a Rossi many years ago. Darn fine gun.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I do occasionally buy guns for the 'cool' factor even though I know I won't be shooting them much.  I'm keeping my eyes open for a reasonable deal on an 1887 shotgun even though I doubt I would shoot it very often.  I never saw pump rifles in any westerns, or any other movies that I can recall, so they've never really appealed to me from a cool factor perspective.  If I thought shooting one might help from a competitive perspective that would be different, but I doubt that's the case.

[Lucky R. K.]

14 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 If I thought shooting one might help from a competitive perspective that would be different, but I doubt that's the case.

Have you ever seen Lassiter shot one?

Lucky 

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 minutes ago, Lucky R. K. said:

Have you ever seen Lassiter shot one?

Lucky 

I have.

 

In the last 10 years have you ever seen anyone in the top ten at EOT who was shooting a pump rifle?  How about anyone winning the overall at a State or Regional match with a pump rifle?

[Lucky R. K.]

1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I have.

Then you know that the gun is capable of winning championships in the right hands.

Lucky 

[Captain Bill Burt]

4 minutes ago, Lucky R. K. said:

Then you know that the gun is capable of winning championships in the right hands.

Lucky 

Respectfully, I disagree that a pump rifle is a good choice for a shooter who wants to be competitive simply because you can cite a single shooter who does well in his category with one.

 

I could easily counter by mentioning dozens of shooters who do even better shooting a lever gun.

[Lucky R. K.]

1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Respectfully, I disagree that a pump rifle is a good choice for a shooter who wants to be competitive simply because you can cite a single shooter who does well in his category with one.

Just remember the famous quote "It's not the gun, It's the shooter".

Lucky 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Lucky R. K. said:

Just remember the famous quote "It's not the gun, It's the shooter".

Lucky 

I agree, up to a point.  Dead Eye Dillard (or any number of top shooters) with a pump rifle would certainly beat me with a lever gun, but would he choose to compete against Matt Black with one?  I think not.

 

I appreciate your point of view, but let's be real, pump rifles aren't popular in CAS, and there are multiple reasons for that.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

In my collection, I have a 73, 2 66's, 3 92's, a Henry, and 5 Lightings in main match calibers.

I am fastest with the Lightning.    Granted, I am a bottom of the pack shooter no matter what, but I do notice better performance with the pump gun.  But that very well could come down to personal preference.  If I was to make the effort to try to get faster, it would be with the Lightning, as I already "do better" with it.   Note that all of my guns are either stock, or with minimal tuning.  No race guns for me.   That may also be a factor, but who knows?

In any event, based on the performance of my (brother's) Rossi repro in .22, I think a scaled up version of the Winchester in a main match caliber would be faster than a Lightning.  Just a guess on my part, but anything's possible.

[The Verdigris Kid]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:24 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I never saw pump rifles in any westerns, or any other movies that I can recall, so they've never really appealed to me from a cool factor perspective.

There was an episode of "The Rifleman" where a guy had invented a new rifle that he thought was better than the Winchester Lucus used. He challenged Lucus to a duel to try to prove it. From what I remember the rifle in question looked like a Lightning.

 

Just found it. Season 4 Episode 18 "Sporting Chance."

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

9 hours ago, The Verdigris Kid said:

There was an episode of "The Rifleman" where a guy had invented a new rifle that he thought was better than the Winchester Lucus used. He challenged Lucus to a duel to try to prove it. From what I remember the rifle in question looked like a Lightning.

 

Just found it. Season 4 Episode 18 "Sporting Chance."

 

There is also one seen hanging in the window of the gunsmith's shop in a couple of episodes of the same show.

That being said, it does not seem to have gotten a lot of use in other things...

https://imfdb.org/wiki/Colt_Lightning_Carbine

 

[Fretless]

Unaltered, original guns, the slide action would more than likely allow any person to fire more rounds in less time, compared to a lever gun.  Original springs were stout.  However, staying on target between shots with a slide action takes real practice.  In real life, just as in CAS, missing fast isn't as good as hitting at a moderate pace.  Like the man said "take your time in a hurry". 

That, I believe, is why the lever gun dominates the scene.

 

Also, you can't simultaneously twirl and cock a slide action rifle.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

8 hours ago, Fretless said:

Also, you can't simultaneously twirl and cock a slide action rifle.

 

Yeah, but, while I do have three "large loop" style lever guns, I can tell you, it doesn't work.  Tried it, with snap caps, and as the gun is upside down, the cartridge falls out and rolls across the floor.

 

[Tom Bullweed]

On 5/24/2024 at 9:24 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I do occasionally buy guns for the 'cool' factor even though I know I won't be shooting them much.  I'm keeping my eyes open for a reasonable deal on an 1887 shotgun even though I doubt I would shoot it very often.  I never saw pump rifles in any westerns, or any other movies that I can recall, so they've never really appealed to me from a cool factor perspective.  If I thought shooting one might help from a competitive perspective that would be different, but I doubt that's the case.

The bank guard in A Few Dollars More carried a CLMR.

Lee Van Cleef had a CLMR in a roll of guns in Death Rides a Horse.

[watab kid]

yes i have an 1890 , as well as a number of the ones that followed , while i love them asa 22s im not going down the rabit fole of pistol caliber rifles in pumps , one can get a colt or one of the clones but they are not well liked except by those few that can get one to work well or just enjoy shooting them , i understand that but wont personally be going there ..............if i had a buckaroo/ette to supply guns to id give them the option of either the pump or lever , i never want someone tpo think i prefer - i like both , each has its place in my life , i just dont mix the two , 

 

thus why my 97 sees so little time on the shoots ,