Crinkled Brass After Reloading on my Dillion 650

[Texas Maverick]

UPDATE:

 

I just backed off the station 5 crimp die and then started it down until its crimp made it through the case checker. Here is a bullet after stage 4 (bullet seating with no crimp.

 

 

Here is the new bullet with just enough crimp to slide into the case checker. Does this look like enough crimp to you guys?

 

 

I loaded 60 rounds after this adjustment without anymore crinkles. Hopefully that fixed it. I did find station 5 die loose and not tight against the head like it should have been. Guessing it worked itself loose and I never caught it until now. I still plan on taking it down and doing a good cleaning of the plate and head area.

 

Thanks everyone for the input.

 

TM

[Eyesa Horg]

My feeling would be to go a little more based on the pic. I crimp mine so I can't see/feel the end of the case. Glad that was the issue. It's always nice to have an easy and inexpensive fix!

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Yeah, I think you need a little more crimp now, too.  But glad you got it sorted out.  As for those wrinkled rounds, just push them real, real hard into the case checker - that will iron them out and then you can shoot them next month at State. 

[Eyesa Horg]

5 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Yeah, I think you need a little more crimp now, too.  But glad you got it sorted out.  As for those wrinkled rounds, just push them real, real hard into the case checker - that will iron them out and then you can shoot them next month at State. 

In your rifle 

[Rip Snorter]

Actually, I have a box somewhere marked Rifle Only.  Can work!

[Texas Maverick]

1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Yeah, I think you need a little more crimp now, too.  But glad you got it sorted out.  As for those wrinkled rounds, just push them real, real hard into the case checker - that will iron them out and then you can shoot them next month at State. 

Thanks for the suggestion? Now I know who my true friends are. Lol

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

39 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Actually, I have a box somewhere marked Rifle Only.  Can work!

Might try them out after my monthly match just to try and recover the brass.

 

TM

[El Sobrante Kid]

You might consider belling the case a little less, your cases will last longer. You only need enough flare, in the shortest case, so that you don't shave any lead off the bullet when it is seated. Congrats on finding the problem.

[Texas Maverick]

On 4/25/2024 at 5:56 PM, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Yeah, I think you need a little more crimp now, too.  But glad you got it sorted out.  As for those wrinkled rounds, just push them real, real hard into the case checker - that will iron them out and then you can shoot them next month at State. 

Ok, here are new pics from todays loading. Before cleaning and removing the shell plate.

 

Crimps before cleaning

 

Crimp after cleaning. They look pretty much the same to me but wanted to make sure no one sees anything I am missing.

 

 

I loaded around 100 rounds after cleaning and so far haven't had anymore crinkles.

 

Abilene, you asked me how many stations the 650 has and it is 5.

 

this pic was before cleaning but after adjusting the stage 5 crimp die about 1/2 to 3/4 turn more.

 

thanks

 

TM 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

On 4/25/2024 at 2:51 PM, Texas Maverick said:

UPDATE:

 

I just backed off the station 5 crimp die and then started it down until its crimp made it through the case checker. Here is a bullet after stage 4 (bullet seating with no crimp.

 

 

Here is the new bullet with just enough crimp to slide into the case checker. Does this look like enough crimp to you guys?

 

 

I loaded 60 rounds after this adjustment without anymore crinkles. Hopefully that fixed it. I did find station 5 die loose and not tight against the head like it should have been. Guessing it worked itself loose and I never caught it until now. I still plan on taking it down and doing a good cleaning of the plate and head area.

 

Thanks everyone for the input.

 

TM

Turn the crimp die 1/8 turn clockwise. 

How much did you back it off?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

22 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said:

Ok, here are new pics from todays loading. Before cleaning and removing the shell plate.

 

Crimps before cleaning

 

Crimp after cleaning. They look pretty much the same to me but wanted to make sure no one sees anything I am missing.

 

 

I loaded around 100 rounds after cleaning and so far haven't had anymore crinkles.

 

Abilene, you asked me how many stations the 650 has and it is 5.

 

this pic was before cleaning but after adjusting the stage 5 crimp die about 1/2 to 3/4 turn more.

 

thanks

 

TM 

 

Clean and lube the press

[Texas Maverick]

31 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Clean and lube the press

That is what I just did.

 

Thanks

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

34 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Turn the crimp die 1/8 turn clockwise. 

How much did you back it off?

Didn't back off. Others said the crimp needed to be more so I tightened it more by about 1/2 to 3/4 turn clockwise.

 

TM

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Ok.. I ain’t a professional but by just looking..

it seems (from the picture) that maybe your bullet

needs to be seated just a little bit deeper.. 

when ya do the crimp it should crimp right into the crimp groove..

you can get a little tighter crimp that way..

Now.. by doing this you will get a tighter crimp but..

it will change your total bullets over all length..

If your rifle is finicky to a certain overall length..

go back to where ya had it..

a tighter crimped bullet might save a bullet from shortening itself in magazine from the pressure of the other rounds pushing on it..

but ya got rid of your problem

Edited May 3 by Rance - SASS # 54090

[watab kid]

from what i see it needs a little bit more crimp , but go slow and easy , 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Yes I agree with Rance, seat the bullet a tad deeper, and the crimp is "ok" but I'd give it a little more if it still looks like that after seating deeper. 

[Texas Maverick]

Just to update this post. I spent about an hour working with Mike at Dillon and we were able to resolve it. Not sure exactly which step did it but over all it took care of the issue. I completely took out the crimp die and cleaned it. Took off the shell plate and primer assembly and cleaned them up. Lubed the pin on the primer assembly and reinstalled it. Lubed the top of the shell plate bolt and reassembled it. The put the crimp die back in and screwed it down to where it hit the bullet and started very slowly lowering it until it crimped enough for the case to go through the case gauge. Mike said their dies were not for roll crimping and the 38 didn't need much of a crimp. I showed him what my end round looks like and he said that would be enough. You can see it doesn't have much crimp on it. I proceeded to load 200 rounds without any creases. So I am now off to the races again having to reload over 400 rounds for the next 2 big 2 day matches. I learned some things from Mike on what the look out for in the future. Dillon really is a good company to buy from and they stand behind their equipment totally. I asked about the OAL and he said that my depth was fine and it didn't need to be any less than I had it. So I stuck with the 1.45 OAL that works great in my rifle.

 

 

TM

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Still think you need more crimp.

Look at the Lee Factory Crimp Die. 

[Texas Maverick]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Still think you need more crimp.

Look at the Lee Factory Crimp Die. 

I have the Lee crimp die in my Lee turret and it does do more crimp that the Dillon die. Mike said that they are totally different types of dies and how they crimp. He said that is an issue with a lot of reloaders trying to make the Dillon die act like a Lee die and it causes all sorts of problems. I guess I am going with the expert and if it works I am happy with it. 

 

TM

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

This is right off the Dillon website:

 

"Dillon Dies are engineered to give the very best performance, durablity and reliabilty on your Dillon Reloader.  Hand made in the USA from the highest quality sintered carbide , our dies are hand finished to exact standards.   All Dillon Pistol Die sets include our size / depriming die,  seating die and a separate crimp die (taper crimp for auto cartridges, accu-crimp for revolver cartridges)."

 

I have dozens of Dillon dies and the dies for revolver cartridges DO roll crimp, i.e., accu-crimp.  The cartridge in your photo is bascally showing no crimp.  It is showing a sharp edge.  Fine for revolvers potentially not so fine for rifles.  Do whatever floats your boat.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

12 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said:

I have the Lee crimp die in my Lee turret and it does do more crimp that the Dillon die. Mike said that they are totally different types of dies and how they crimp. He said that is an issue with a lot of reloaders trying to make the Dillon die act like a Lee die and it causes all sorts of problems. I guess I am going with the expert and if it works I am happy with it. 

 

TM

Been run'n the LEE FCD since they came out.

I'll stick with the Lee.

It also sizes the loaded round. 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This is right off the Dillon website:

 

"Dillon Dies are engineered to give the very best performance, durablity and reliabilty on your Dillon Reloader.  Hand made in the USA from the highest quality sintered carbide , our dies are hand finished to exact standards.   All Dillon Pistol Die sets include our size / depriming die,  seating die and a separate crimp die (taper crimp for auto cartridges, accu-crimp for revolver cartridges)."

 

I have dozens of Dillon dies and the dies for revolver cartridges DO roll crimp, i.e., accu-crimp.  The cartridge in your photo is bascally showing no crimp.  It is showing a sharp edge.  Fine for revolvers potentially not so fine for rifles.  Do whatever floats your boat.

 

X 1000000000!

You can only lead the horse to water...

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

I reload on a Dillon 550 with Dillon dies..

If the guy says it’s ok.. you can go with him..

Myself.. I use more crimp than what your bullet shows..

More crimp can make your powder burn better

and 

might save a bullet going deeper into the shell when 

you have 10 loaded into your magazine..

just sayin’

[Texas Maverick]

Thanks everyone for the input. Now I am totally confused because he said trying to make it roll crimp was what was causing the creases. I guess I can try to add some more crimp and hope the creases don't come back. I do not want any issues when loading them into my rifle.

 

TM

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

There is a HUGE difference between crushing cases (those were way more than wrinkles) and getting a decent crimp.  This is not that difficult.  Dillon has a separate crimp die.  Loosen the lock nut on your crimp die a few turns and raise the die a turn or two.  Then run your case with seated bullet up into the die.  Lower it and look at the crimp area.  Lower the die about 1/4 turn raise the ram, lower the ram and check the crimp.  Keep doing that until you get a nice looking crimp.  Run the now crimped shell back up into the die and tighten the lock nut.  Done.

Edited May 8 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

2 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

There is a HUGE difference between crushing cases (those were way more than wrinkles) and getting a decent crimp.  This is not that difficult.  Dillon has a separate crimp die.  Loosen the lock nut on your crimp die a few turns and raise the die a turn or two.  Then run your case with bullet up into the die.  Lower it and look at the crimp area.  Lower the die about 1/4 turn raise the ram, lower the ram and check the crimp.  Keep doing that until you get a nice looking crimp.  Run the now crimped shell back up into the die and tighten the lock nut.  Done.

Great advice from Larson.. do it.. just a tad bit at a time.. you’ll be 

a happier camper at a match..

[Eyesa Horg]

Seems odd that Dillon said their dies don't roll crimp revolver cartridges. I was of the impression only auto pistol cartridges were taper crimped.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I looked at the rounds Mav had Saturday, although that was before this picture.  I said those needed a little more crimp and I would seat the bullet a little deeper.  I wasn't on your posse, so did that ammo run good?  Based on this last pic, which isn't real sharp, I still say deeper seating and more crimp.  

 

I also have the Lee FCD on my Lee Turret press, and bought another one for my 550. , I use their FCD's for all calibers except Schofield and Russians which I seat/crimp together with no problems.

[Griff]

14 hours ago, Texas Maverick said:

Just to update this post. I spent about an hour working with Mike at Dillon and we were able to resolve it. Not sure exactly which step did it but over all it took care of the issue. I completely took out the crimp die and cleaned it. Took off the shell plate and primer assembly and cleaned them up. Lubed the pin on the primer assembly and reinstalled it. Lubed the top of the shell plate bolt and reassembled it. The put the crimp die back in and screwed it down to where it hit the bullet and started very slowly lowering it until it crimped enough for the case to go through the case gauge. Mike said their dies were not for roll crimping and the 38 didn't need much of a crimp. I showed him what my end round looks like and he said that would be enough. You can see it doesn't have much crimp on it. I proceeded to load 200 rounds without any creases. So I am now off to the races again having to reload over 400 rounds for the next 2 big 2 day matches. I learned some things from Mike on what the look out for in the future. Dillon really is a good company to buy from and they stand behind their equipment totally. I asked about the OAL and he said that my depth was fine and it didn't need to be any less than I had it. So I stuck with the 1.45 OAL that works great in my rifle.

 

 

TM

Sorry TM... but that pictured round looks neither fully seated nor showing any crimp at all.  And Mike be only ½ right.  With adequate  neck tension, a 38 Spl, might not need a crimp in a revolver, but they don't have the combined weight of up to 8 rounds plus  spring pressure pushing against that neck tension.  Add in the hammer effect of both recoil and the movement of that column of cartridges in the magazine.

Edited May 9 by Griff

[Texas Maverick]

15 hours ago, Griff said:

Sorry TM... but that pictured round looks neither fully seated nor showing any crimp at all.  And Mike be only ½ right.  With adequate  neck tension, a 38 Spl, might not need a crimp in a revolver, but they don't have the combined weight of up to 8 rounds plus  spring pressure pushing against that neck tension.  Add in the hammer effect of both recoil and the movement of that column of cartridges in the magazine.

Ok, you guys win. I will put some more crimp in it and hope it doesn't create the creakles I was getting. I know when I was loading with my Lee there was more crimp but I referred to the Dillon rep and was told something different. I put my faith in his knowledge over mine. I have separated the loads I just did into pistol rounds and will crimp new ones for my rifle until I have used them all which will be easy to do since I have two major matches coming up and will use over 400 rounds.

 

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

TM

20 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I looked at the rounds Mav had Saturday, although that was before this picture.  I said those needed a little more crimp and I would seat the bullet a little deeper.  I wasn't on your posse, so did that ammo run good?  Based on this last pic, which isn't real sharp, I still say deeper seating and more crimp.  

 

I also have the Lee FCD on my Lee Turret press, and bought another one for my 550. , I use their FCD's for all calibers except Schofield and Russians which I seat/crimp together with no problems.

Yes, no hiccups at all.

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

21 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

There is a HUGE difference between crushing cases (those were way more than wrinkles) and getting a decent crimp.  This is not that difficult.  Dillon has a separate crimp die.  Loosen the lock nut on your crimp die a few turns and raise the die a turn or two.  Then run your case with seated bullet up into the die.  Lower it and look at the crimp area.  Lower the die about 1/4 turn raise the ram, lower the ram and check the crimp.  Keep doing that until you get a nice looking crimp.  Run the now crimped shell back up into the die and tighten the lock nut.  Done.

thanks, that is what I did to get to the point I am now. I did it until it went into the case gauge and then stopped. I will take it down some more until I get more crimp in it. 

 

TM

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

You are way overthinking this process.  All you did was iron out the flare put on the case to insert the bullet until the case fit into the case gauge.  You can take a sized case with no crimp and it will go into a case gauge.  The proper tool to measure crimp is your EYEBALL.  A secondary tool is your index finger fingernail to see if there is a sharpe edge.  A sharpe edge can drag or catch on the chamber mouth in a lever action.  The crimp also helps keep rounds from collapsing in a tubular magazine.  Do what I suggested until you can SEE a good crimp then try the case gauge.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

 

 

From an old CAS City thread on properly crimped rounds. 

Edited May 9 by Tex Jones, SASS 2263

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

7 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

.http://www.davidscottharper.com/photos/38-357.jpg

 

 

From an old CAS City thread on crimped 

Good information 

Edited May 9 by The Original Lumpy Gritz

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

5 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

 

 

From an old CAS City thread on properly crimped rounds. 

 

That's my photo!   The reason I posted that one was to show that the stubby 125gr bullet on the left was too short to feed through my '73