Why Nasa still flies an old British bomber design

[Chantry]

I was surprised NASA is stilling using the plane.  NASA uses the planes enough that they pulled one out of the Boneyard at Davis- Monthan after 40+ years and put it back in flying missions.    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160309-why-nasa-still-flies-an-old-british-bomber-design

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

We cross supported Aussie Canberras in 'Nam.  They were stationed at Phan Rang...or Phan Thiet.  I never did get them straight.  Flight Captain Graham Campbell was our contact.  

 

Great guys, those Aussies. 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Cool looking aircraft, to boot.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

59 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

Cool looking aircraft, to boot.

That's nothing. This is the RB-57F. It was made as a precursor to the U-2. One of these was actually the first aircraft to spot the Russian missiles in Cuba that started the whole Missile crisis. They have one here in Tucson at the Pima Air Museum.

[watab kid]

ive always wondered why we dont build new ones of these old ones that worked so well , there are some things in life that were done correctly in spite of what some might think 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

6 hours ago, watab kid said:

ive always wondered why we dont build new ones of these old ones that worked so well , there are some things in life that were done correctly in spite of what some might think 

Because it's more cost effective to just upgrade the older ones.  

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

The B-57 used a cartridge startup system. Three canisters were inserted under the cap at the nose of the engines. They look like small caliber artillery shells. When fired, these spun up the turbine and provided ignition. Dirty, but effective!

 

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Until I first watched the original Flight of the Phoenix (a great flick with an incredible cast) I never knew airplane engines were started with cartridges.....

[watab kid]

11 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Because it's more cost effective to just upgrade the older ones.  

i suppose , the cost of a new one in todays dollars might be staggering compared to the original cost , 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

17 hours ago, watab kid said:

ive always wondered why we dont build new ones of these old ones that worked so well , there are some things in life that were done correctly in spite of what some might think 

 

11 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Because it's more cost effective to just upgrade the older ones.  

 

7 minutes ago, watab kid said:

i suppose , the cost of a new one in todays dollars might be staggering compared to the original cost , 

The fact that these older airplanes have outlived their original purpose doesn't mean that they aren't good designs. These old airplanes can fill a new roll for a fraction of the cost of designing and building new planes. Look at the longevity of the B52. And they show NO signs of being replaced. 

Think about the venerable Huey helicopter. There are much newer designs being used now, but they still fill rolls that they were not originally made for, even as civilian aircraft. Same thing with the DC3. Those things are rapidly approaching 100 years old, and THEY'RE still flying. 

[watab kid]

thats a bit startling when it sank in , 100 years old and still flying , i never thought about that before 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

Until I first watched the original Flight of the Phoenix (a great flick with an incredible cast) I never knew airplane engines were started with cartridges.....

I could be wrong, but I’m not aware that cartridges were ever used in radial engines as in that movie. Good flick. 
 

The best part was Barrie Chase in the hallucination scene. 
 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

15 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

1 hour ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

I could be wrong, but I’m not aware that cartridges were ever used in radial engines as in that movie. Good flick. 

 

Big dramatic scene near the end as Jimmy Stewart uses one cartridge after another without success, over the wild protests of the German model airplane designer (played by Hardy Kruger, who died only recently). Radial engine. (I know nothing personal of the subject). How are cartriges typically used?

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

13 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

Big dramatic scene near the end as Jimmy Stewart uses one cartridge after another without success, over the wild protests of the German model airplane designer (played by Hardy Kruger, who died only recently).

 

I remember the scene - a real nail biter. I’m  almost certain this is a Hollywood contrivance. The only cartridge starting system I’m aware of is for early turbojets. Big piston engines as in the movie needed a big flywheel spun up by an electric motor or hand crank. 
 

The airplane was custom built for the movie and actually flew. The pilot was a famous air racer and movie stunt pilot named Paul Mantz. (He and his partner Frank Tillman had a company called Tallmantz Aviation serving the film industry.)

 

Unfortunately, Mantz died while flying the craft for the film. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Mantz

[Chantry]

11 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

 

 

The fact that these older airplanes have outlived their original purpose doesn't mean that they aren't good designs. These old airplanes can fill a new roll for a fraction of the cost of designing and building new planes. Look at the longevity of the B52. And they show NO signs of being replaced. 

Think about the venerable Huey helicopter. There are much newer designs being used now, but they still fill rolls that they were not originally made for, even as civilian aircraft. Same thing with the DC3. Those things are rapidly approaching 100 years old, and THEY'RE still flying. 

 

The WB-57 has a very specific role within NASA, I strongly doubt that there is enough need to start up the production line again, especially since the original tooling is almost certainly gone.

 

The B-52's longevity is due in part to it's flexibility and it's relatively low operating costs compared to the B-1 & B-2.  The B-52 can no longer face modern air defenses.

 

The DC-3, a truly brilliant design that is definitely overbuilt, which is a major reason they are still flying.  The other major reason is that even now, there is no other aircraft that can carry it's cargo/passenger load, get into short, sometimes unimproved fields and do it at at the same or lower operating cost. 

 

Barring the interference of government weenies or some major technological break through, I expect the basic DC-3 design to be flying longer after most of us are dead.   It's my understanding that when Basler is done with their DC-3 re-builds, by FAA standards the aircraft is effectively considered brand new with zero hours on the airframe.   See https://www.baslerturbo.com/  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basler_BT-67

 

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Interesting Wiki article on 'shotgun' starters:

 

Coffman engine starter - Wikipedia

 

Evidently used on a variety of engine types.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I learn something new every day!

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

39 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

I learn something new every day!

 

 

Likewise!

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

IF it ain't broke , don't fix it 

[Sedalia Dave]

On 4/3/2024 at 8:52 PM, watab kid said:

thats a bit startling when it sank in , 100 years old and still flying , i never thought about that before 

 

The first DC-3 flew on December 17, 1935, the 32nd anniversary of the Wright Brothers first flight. The oldest one still flying, the Flagship Detroit, became a flagship when was delivered to American Airlines 15 months later, beginning a decade of service with the airline.  It was delivered just over 87 years ago on March 2nd 1937

 

Flagship Detroit-The Oldest Flying DC-3

[watab kid]

19 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

The first DC-3 flew on December 17, 1935, the 32nd anniversary of the Wright Brothers first flight. The oldest one still flying, the Flagship Detroit, became a flagship when was delivered to American Airlines 15 months later, beginning a decade of service with the airline.  It was delivered just over 87 years ago on March 2nd 1937

 

Flagship Detroit-The Oldest Flying DC-3

 that puts it in perspective - im old , i forget that sometimes , my parents were kids then and had they lived they would be over 100 now , i guess the 60s seem like yesterday to me sometimes , 

[Trailrider #896]

I used to fly Ozark Airlines DC-3's from Peoria to O'hara Chicago when I was in college. One time, it was at night, and I was the only passenger onboard! I asked the stewardess (that's what they called the ladies in those days) to ask the captain if I could come up to the flight deck., as I was an Air Force ROTC cadet and had dreams of punching holes in the sky (didn't happen  ).  Captain said yes, and I stood between the seats. Full moon and a 10/10th undercast below us. What a sight.

 

"In '51 they tried to ground the noble DC-3,

    And so some lawyers went before the CAB,

The Board examined all the facts,

    behind their great oak portals,

And then pronounced these simple words:

    The Gooney Bird's immortal!

They patch her up with masking tape,

    With paper clips and strings,

And still she flies, she never dies,

    Mathusalah with wings!"  -  Oscar Brand