Interesting Discovery Loading 44 WCF for my SAA

[Sedalia Dave]

Acquired 2 Uberti SAAs in 44-40 a while back. Finally got around to loading some ammo tailored just to them.

 

165 gr LRNFP and 5.6 grains of Trailboss.

 

Loaded one round after getting the seating die adjusted so that it crimped in the groove. Dropped it in my case gauge and it easily went in. Because I shoot .430 diameter bullets I decided to test fit it in each pistol to ensure there wern't any issues with the cylinder throats. First gun is dropped right in all 6 chambers no problems. Second gun it lacked about 0.125" from going into each chamber. 

Pulled the cylinder and took it to the loading room to try and figure out the problem. Resized an empty case and tried it to rule out the diameter of the bullets. Still no joy as the case will not fully seat. Check this case in my case gauge and it easily goes in.

 

Now I take a sharpie and color the case to see where it is hitting. Case has vertical scratches about 1/3 up from the case rim. NNo sign of interference in the shoulder area. More head scratching. File down the rim of the case to make sure the rim is clearing the ratchet teeth on the back of the cylinder. Still doesn't drop into the chamber.

 

Call a gun smith friend to see if he has a 44-40 reamer but he doesn't have one. We discuss the possible causes of the case not dropping into the cylinder but don't come up with any ideas outside reaming the chambers.

 

Call another friend that may have one and he askes a few more questions. I drop the test case on the floor so I resize another one rather than crawl under the bench and this one drops right in. WTH! I resize 10 more cases and all but one drops right in. All the brass is Starline but it was not bought all at the same time.

Friend suggests that I remove the decapping pin and sit one of the cases that doesn't fit on top of the shell holder and push it deeper into the sizing die. I do this and tap it back out with a brass rod. This time it drops right in.

 

Seems that on some of the cases the base is about 0.0005" larger in diameter than on others. A short testing of sized cases shows about 10% will not drop into that cylinder. 

 

Going to make an appointment with another gunsmith to have him ream out the chambers of that cylinder while I wait. Afraid that if I mail it to him I may not see that cylinder for 6 months.

 

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Can you take .030 off the bottom of the size die?

[Sedalia Dave]

17 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Can you take .030 off the bottom of the size die?

 

I'd rather not as that will push the shoulder back farther than necessary, shortening the life of the brass.

 

Out of 4 rifles and 2 pistols this is the oly one that has a problem

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

15 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I'd rather not as that will push the shoulder back farther than necessary, shortening the life of the brass.

 

Out of 4 rifles and 2 pistols this is the oly one that has a problem

Does the die make contact with the shell holder when sizing? It should.

The shoulder will be different after you fire them.

What press are you using?

Did you confirm the cylinder throat diameter? 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Does the die make contact with the shell holder when sizing? It should.

The shoulder will be different after you fire them.

What press are you using?

Did you confirm the cylinder throat diameter? 

 

 

 

1. Yes it makes good contact.

2. Yep

3. Dillon with Dillon dies.

4. No but the issue occurs even with a sized but unflared case with no bullet. I'm certain it is not an undersized throat issue.

 

Only 1 out of every 10 cases or so fail to chamber. I tried several of the rounds I loaded that evening with the same results. 

Tonight I will try some Black Dawg Cartridge Co. ammo that I have to see if any of them do the same thing. They are what I shoot for state level matches and have all been case gauged.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The Dillon shell plate is thicker than others.

I've seen this before....

Each time we took .020-.030 off the die base. The problem was solved. 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Dave, do you know anybody close by that could loan you their 44wcf sizing die to try (or size some of your brass on their machine)?  Wondering if a new die might work and be less expensive and quicker than reaming the throats?  Although reaming would more likely be the "correct" thing to do since even the 'problem' brass still fits in the checker.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Any of this brass come from range pickup?   A hot-load expanded base might be possible, but few folks try to hot-rod a .44-40......

 

I'd put your Dillon sizer die in a conventional C press with correct shell holder.  Adjust so the handle "breaks over" after meeting the base.  Then run your large cases through.   May never have to do this again for that brass lot.

 

You fix your brass and you don't have to shave a Dillon die.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

[Hawg Runner, SASS #61139]

I found that resizing it twice before loading helps. I have a 4 hole Lee turant  press and move thru the stations by hand and not auto move with pull of handle.

[Oak Ridge Regulator]

I have had the exact same issue with starline 45 colt but not as many as you, probably closer to 1% there are 30 or so cases sitting on my reloading bench that won’t pass my gauge, they will fit in my rifle but have to be forced into my Rugers and even with my resize die set to its lowest point it won’t resize that last .125 of case, resize dies tend to have a slight taper at the bottom to help the case align and start into the dies. No one makes an undersized die for 45 colt, I have one for 38 that fixes this issue but my bet is you won’t find one for 44-40

[Idaho Gunslinger]

3 minutes ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said:

I have had the exact same issue with starline 45 colt but not as many as you, probably closer to 1% there are 30 or so cases sitting on my reloading bench that won’t pass my gauge, they will fit in my rifle but have to be forced into my Rugers and even with my resize die set to its lowest point it won’t resize that last .125 of case, resize dies tend to have a slight taper at the bottom to help the case align and start into the dies. No one makes an undersized die for 45 colt, I have one for 38 that fixes this issue but my bet is you won’t find one for 44-40

The difference here is that you said yours won't pass the gauge. He said all of his do pass the gauge but some still won't chamber in that particular SAA. 

[Oak Ridge Regulator]

I saw that but when he said he had 10% of cases with the same problem my bet was he has a two fold problem, first off a gun with tight cylinders, and a batch of shells with some that have a slightly larger area just in front of the rim like the ones I Have that won’t resize enough for his cylinder

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

This is a work around but I always load my revolvers first.  Anything a little snug just goes in the rifle which will eat anything.  In the revolvers 0.428 bullets work best.

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said:

I have had the exact same issue with starline 45 colt but not as many as you, probably closer to 1% there are 30 or so cases sitting on my reloading bench that won’t pass my gauge, they will fit in my rifle but have to be forced into my Rugers and even with my resize die set to its lowest point it won’t resize that last .125 of case, resize dies tend to have a slight taper at the bottom to help the case align and start into the dies. No one makes an undersized die for 45 colt, I have one for 38 that fixes this issue but my bet is you won’t find one for 44-40

 

You have a rare firearm. 45 Colt chambers almost always run on the large size. Do those cases fit into a case gauge?

 

Given the small number you have what I would do is as follows.

 

Remove the decapping assembly from your die.

Lube the cases even if you have carbide dies.

Sit the case on top of the shell holder and slowly push it into your sizing die till it almost bottoms out on the rim. This will resize the last little bit of the case

Now use a 3/8" brass rod and drive the case out of the die. 

 

I could do the same thing but I would have to test fit over a thousand cases. Lot less work to fix the chambers in the one pistol.

 

[Oak Ridge Regulator]

The last 10% of the case won’t drop into the gauge, they mic a bit on the large size just in front of the rim and my bet is starline just had a few cases that ran a little heavy in the punch, I have seen the same thing in 38sp brass and the lee undersized die I use will usually correct it, since it’s 30 or so cases out of 4000 I just set them aside for rifle practice, I’m betting Dave has a little bit of the same thing going on with his brass (a micrometer would tell) plus a tight cylinder. It’s always more fun when it’s a couple of different things causing issues !

[Doc Moses]

Ive got some rcbs 44-40 dies you can borrow if you want to try Abilene's fix. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Tested about 100 rounds loaded by Maine Cartridge Co. and another 100 loaded by Black Dawg Cartridge Co.) All rounds were loaded with 200 gr. RNFP at 1.590" OAL.

5 rounds from batch 1 and 6 from batch 2 wouldn't chamber in the one pistol. All 11 rounds dropped right into my case gauge and when inverted dropped right out.

 

I have a finish reamer on the way from a fellow shooter. I'll report back on how much material the reamer removes.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

52 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Tested about 100 rounds loaded by Maine Cartridge Co. and another 100 loaded by Black Dawg Cartridge Co.) All rounds were loaded with 200 gr. RNFP at 1.590" OAL.

5 rounds from batch 1 and 6 from batch 2 wouldn't chamber in the one pistol. All 11 rounds dropped right into my case gauge and when inverted dropped right out.

 

I have a finish reamer on the way from a fellow shooter. I'll report back on how much material the reamer removes.

Is it just one chamber in the problem gun?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:49 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

so I resize another one rather than crawl under the bench and this one drops right in. WTH! I resize 10 more cases and all but one drops right in.

 

If empty brass won't fit in the cylinder of a revolver, a THROAT reamer will not fix the CHAMBER.   A finish CHAMBER reamer will.    SD's note above shows this is a CHAMBER problem. 

 

Quote

I have a finish reamer on the way from a fellow shooter. I'll report back on how much material the reamer removes.

 

Yes, that would be informative!  GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

10 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Is it just one chamber in the problem gun?

 

All 6 in one pistol. I have 4 rifles and another pistol that do not have this problem.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A chamber cast with CerroSafe alloy would be a conventional way to check the size of the chambers in that cylinder and compare to SAAMI minimum dimensions.  

 

And a gun that failed to be made to SAAMI specs would, for me, be returned to manufacturer for "bring it up to specs" work.   This kind of problem (and other safety and function issues) was why in the 1920s the US public AND Congress coaxed the US gun industry to set up the SAAMI standardization process.

 

good luck, GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

15 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

A chamber cast with CerroSafe alloy would be a conventional way to check the size of the chambers in that cylinder and compare to SAAMI minimum dimensions.  

 

And a gun that failed to be made to SAAMI specs would, for me, be returned to manufacturer for "bring it up to specs" work.   This kind of problem (and other safety and function issues) was why in the 1920s the US public AND Congress coaxed the US gun industry to set up the SAAMI standardization process.

 

good luck, GJ

 

Were the pistol new I would send it back. However I bought it used.

 

I didn't think about a chamber case. I'll do that before I ream one of the cylinders and make a second one after to compare. THANKS 

 

["Big Boston"]

I have a rifle and two handguns in 44-40, and every time you add another firearm in 44-40, the nuances surface. Usually the issue is with the shoulder not getting set back enough. I realize that is not your issue, but you mentioned not wanting to set the shoulder back and risk shortening the life of the case. The 44-40 headspaces on the rim, the case and shoulder has very thin brass, the 44-40 has a 4° shoulder angle, you can move it back a goodly amount and the brass is not compromised, IMO.

 

Dillon shell plates do vary, but the "N" plate for the 44-40 is a bit thinner than 0.125", so IMO that is not an issue. 

 

I don't think that the chambers are the issue, they are probably in spec. Don't fix what ain't broke. 

 

Not all 44-40 dies are the same. I have Redding and LEE dies, both are slightly different. I had to grind a bit off the bottom my LEE die. I'd normally never do that to a die, but that is a standard rework for the 44-40. 

 

I experimented with loading 44-40 with a Lyman tong tool and 310 dies. The 310 dies just neck size. In order to prep the cases and have ammo that fir I had to size the body. I used a 30-06 size and ran the cases through it first. Tolerances being what they are, doing an extra step to prep the cases isn't unheard of, luckily most times it is a one time only deal. I did try some with a 7/8 die but had to pick from several, for me a 25-06 one worked well. The nice thing about going that route, is that the shoulder area is untouched. 

I've changed set-up for my 550 several times to get the ammo right for 44-40. I use a LEE FL die wth a bit trimmed off the bottom. I can then adjust up or down without having the die contact the plate. BTW, very few of my pistol die FL sizer dies ever touch the shell holder or plate. That's not how they work, IMO. Rifle yes, pistol, not necessarily. In the expanding/funnel position I changed to a "G" as I'm using 429/430 bullets, (all my firearms are clones). I seat with a LEE and crimp with a Redding. But, dies vary, I've seen posts that say that the LEE didn't size enough, others that it sized too much, and Redding has less variations but there can be differences. It pays to try another die, 

 

I chose to grind my LEE die as if I messed it up, all I'm out is the price of another LEE die, which is about half the cost of a Redding. 

 

As you can tell by the number of responses, you are not alone in this quest. Although a trophy, the 44-40 can be a high maintenance mistress. 

 

BB

 

I do like to take fired cases from one and see if the chamber in the other to find out which is the smallest, and like you, a bit of Sharpie to see where. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Thanks for the info. I too load .430 diameter bullets as my 1860 and 1866 both slug at .429". Haven't slugged the pistols or my Marlin as I didn't see the need.

 

The G funnel is a must for bullets larger than .428".

 

I used a carbide hone to modify a 44 Special/Magnum crimp die to work for for 44-40. Took several hours to get it opened up as even seating dies are made from some really hard steel. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

All 6 in one pistol. I have 4 rifles and another pistol that do not have this problem.

Anyway you can measure the chamber opening and compare to the other?

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Looking through your posts SD I don't see where you say if you isolated to one chamber. Do all six chambers in the offending revolver have this problem?

[Sedalia Dave]

1 minute ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Looking through your posts SD I don't see where you say if you isolated to one chamber. Do all six chambers in the offending revolver have this problem?

 

Yes all 6 in just one pistol.

[Sedalia Dave]

Found my micrometer so broke out the cerrosafe and did a casting of 3 of the 6 chambers. Average dimension of the three chambers .200" from the end was .4675"

 

SAAMI spec is .4697" minus 0 / plus .002"

 

So the chambers undersized by .0022" from SAAMI Specs and .0014" smaller than SAAMI max cartridge dimensions.

 

As soon as I locate some proper cutting oil, I'll start reaming the chambers using the finish reamer another cowboy was kind enough to loan me.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Found my micrometer so broke out the cerrosafe and did a casting of 3 of the 6 chambers. Average dimension of the three chambers .200" from the end was .4675"

 

SAAMI spec is .4697" minus 0 / plus .002"

 

So the chambers undersized by .0022" from SAAMI Specs and .0014" smaller than SAAMI max cartridge dimensions.

 

As soon as I locate some proper cutting oil, I'll start reaming the chambers using the finish reamer another cowboy was kind enough to loan me.

Dextron/Mercon ATF works very well.

[Sedalia Dave]

Well I learned something new about chamber reamers. Not all are made the same. Yes I know you can order one with custom dimensions, however there are usually marked as such.

The reamer I was loaned is marked as a finish reamer. However it is cut to what I would call match dimensions and not SAAMI chamber specifications.

 

It appears to ream the chamber to  .0001" larger than the SAAMI maximum dimensions for the cartridge and not the minimum chamber dimensions. When I inserted it into one of the problem chambers it fit perfectly. However if I insert it into the other pistol's chamber there is a small detectable amount of play. Same is true if I insert it into my case gauge.

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

That write up does not make sense. 

 

If the finish reamer fits easily into both your case gauge/chamber checker, and into all your revolver chambers including the ones which you thought were too small (tight), then it is almost certainly not one-thousandths OVER max chamber specifications.   If it were that large, is should be tight or failing to fully enter all those gauges/cylinders. A MATCH finish reamer is almost always made at (or even tighter) than the minimum chamber specs, so you have a snug fit on cartridges.

 

Sounds to me like the reamer you have may well be a match reamer (or has been worn or resharpened too much), which is smaller than you need to clean out the tight chambers in that one cylinder.   A non-match (or newly made) reamer would be larger.   You are going to have to remove metal to make that one cylinder accept rounds properly.  Another finish reamer is needed!

 

good luck, GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

51 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

That write up does not make sense. 

 

If the finish reamer fits easily into both your case gauge/chamber checker, and into all your revolver chambers including the ones which you thought were too small (tight), then it is almost certainly not one-thousandths OVER max chamber specifications.   If it were that large, is should be tight or failing to fully enter all those gauges/cylinders. A MATCH finish reamer is almost always made at (or even tighter) than the minimum chamber specs, so you have a snug fit on cartridges.

 

Sounds to me like the reamer you have may well be a match reamer (or has been worn or resharpened too much), which is smaller than you need to clean out the tight chambers in that one cylinder.   A non-match (or newly made) reamer would be larger.   You are going to have to remove metal to make that one cylinder accept rounds properly.  Another finish reamer is needed!

 

good luck, GJ

 

Once lubed and inserted into any of the chambers on the problem pistol, I can detect no discernible movement. As I rotate it I can feel it touch but not cut any material from the chamber walls. 

 

When I inserted it into the other pistols chambers I can detect a small amount of play. Same is true for the case gauge.

 

I cannot measure the exact dimensions of the reamer as I don't want to chance damaging the cutters on the carbide anvils of my micrometer.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

As I rotate it I can feel it touch but not cut any material from the chamber walls.

 

Well, you still need a larger reamer if you expect to fix that cylinder's chambers!   Otherwise, you have a cylinder that is at maximum SAAMI size, and still have brass that won't fit, which may indicate a need for a DIFFERENT maker's sizing die - that is hopefully down close to minimum size.   Either cylinder or sizing die is out of SAAMI spec.

 

good luck, GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

23 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Well, you still need a larger reamer if you expect to fix that cylinder's chambers!   Otherwise, you have a cylinder that is at maximum SAAMI size, and still have brass that won't fit, which may indicate a need for a DIFFERENT maker's sizing die - that is hopefully down close to minimum size.   Either cylinder or sizing die is out of SAAMI spec.

 

good luck, GJ

 

There are TWO SAAMI specifications for every cartridge. One is the specification that defines the MAXIMUM dimensions for the case. The other is the MINIMUM Chamber dimensions.

 

Minimum chamber dimensions are always larger than maximum case dimensions. otherwise you end up with a pistol like mine that will not chamber cartridges that are within SAAMI maximum specifications.

 

In my case the cylinder is SMALLER THAN SAAMI minimum chamber specifications. It is currently cut to match the SAAMI Cartridge specs and not the SAAMI Chamber specifications.

 

Chambers for match grade rifles are often cut smaller than SAAMI specifications to improve accuracy. There is no reason to cut match grade chambers on a production revolver. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Maybe these folks can help?

https://www.elkridgereamerrentals.com/store/44-40-WCF-c61098572