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John Kloehr

John Kloehr's Reloading Thread

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Question at end of post.

 

Bullets are here, APP arrives tomorrow. The miscellaneous tools I ordered also arrived.

 

7.5 shot is hung somewhere in the USPS matrix. Not a critical need yet, but my first project is still going to be the mag tech brass shells. I will need wads, overshot cards, possibly a tool to install primers, some dipping scoops, that might be it... Except for a mentor.

 

Next investigation:

 

What primers to use for reloading the Winchester AA shells I have. Won't be for a while, but will need primers. I think those use 209A primers, but which ones?

 

This writeup shows primer selection in shotshells has a major affect on recoil:

 

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

 

At this point, I only have a negative recommendation for Fiocchi primers as they do not always fire in slicked shotguns (based on 1 data point).

 

What shotshell primers do you use and why?

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14 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Question at end of post.

 

Bullets are here, APP arrives tomorrow. The miscellaneous tools I ordered also arrived.

 

7.5 shot is hung somewhere in the USPS matrix. Not a critical need yet, but my first project is still going to be the mag tech brass shells. I will need wads, overshot cards, possibly a tool to install primers, some dipping scoops, that might be it... Except for a mentor.

 

Next investigation:

 

What primers to use for reloading the Winchester AA shells I have. Won't be for a while, but will need primers. I think those use 209A primers, but which ones?

 

This writeup shows primer selection in shotshells has a major affect on recoil:

 

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

 

At this point, I only have a negative recommendation for Fiocchi primers as they do not always fire in slicked shotguns (based on 1 data point).

 

What shotshell primers do you use and why?

I am definitely in the minority but I use (and like) Remington STS premier 209 shotshell primers. They are considerably more expensive around here than many others but I have been reloading my shotshells (STS and Nitro 27 hulls, STS primers, 15 grains Clays, 1 oz 7 1/2 shot) for about 9 years and have yet to have a FTF. As you can see from the load data not the most powerful loads but not the weakest either. According to my Lyman manual (5th edition) the STS produce the second lowest pressure for a given velocity in three separate examples (pg 45-46) which helps out with arthritic hands and wrists. By comparison the Federal 209A (not sure if it is a magnum version or not as I do not use it) generates between 900 to 2600 PSI more pressure than the Remington at the same velocity. When I started reloading a pard gave me a bunch of AA loaded with Federal primers and the cup was rounded (the Remington is flat) and in my tuned SKB's I would get about 2-3 FTF per match from a light hit. Bought factory Remington STS and Nitro 27 problem went away, so when I started reloading on a Sizemaster, I tried the Remington primers first and have seen no need to change since. Side note I have also used the Winchester primers for some of our 4-H Western Heritage shooters (my nephews) for their practice (that is what they brought, that is what I used) in stock Stoegers (trying to duplicate the AA LNLR load) and have not had any complaints.

Best advice you have already been given from others... Get an appropriate manual and experiment a bit until you find something YOU like, what others like means very little except insomuch as it may shorten the time frame to get to your ideal load.

Regards and all the best

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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On 6/26/2020 at 7:18 AM, John Kloehr said:

Ordering shot.

 

I've seen posts ranging from size 6 to 9, 7-1/2 seems to come up a lot.

 

65# of 7-1/2 shot. Seemed like a lot of shot until I did a bit of rough math. Assuming a 1 oz load (eyeball for easy math, not a formula spec) and just over a box of shells per match, shooting every month, it is less than a three year supply. Still seems like a lot but it isn't.

 

When I saw how much was in a bag, it seemed like a lifetime supply. Since it is lead, the bag will also probably be surprisingly small.

 

Hi John,

       Welcome to Cowboy Action.

 

      Here is a safety issue I have to share with you.  It might save you and your friends some grief.  It concerns re-claimed shot.

 

      Sometime you might want to try and buy some economical reclaimed or recycled shot.  It works fine but you have check it for metal.

 

      If you use it:  Pour it in a shallow tray and go over it with an adequate sized contractor magnet or a Frankford Arsenal magnet.  

 

      I used to buy it in my area to save a buck but found that it contained steel shot, nail pieces, and such.  I no longer use it.

      Out of a 25 lb. batch I found about 10 pieces of steel -- BB size to pieces of nails. One piece looked like a very small key to a motor shaft.

 

      A friend of mine was hit in the eye with a ricochet and he was a long way from the firing line and I always wondered if he was hit with a piece of metal from someone's re-claimed shot.  He's fine now, by the way -- completely recovered.

 

      I thought you might like to know this because it's a safety issue.  You came to the right place for some good information.

 

      All the best, 

      Slow Mo Dern

 

 

 

 

 

      All the best, 

 

     Mo

 

      

 

 

 

     I

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9 hours ago, Slow Mo Dern said:

Hi John,

       Welcome to Cowboy Action.

 

      Here is a safety issue I have to share with you.  It might save you and your friends some grief.  It concerns re-claimed shot.

 

      Sometime you might want to try and buy some economical reclaimed or recycled shot.  It works fine but you have check it for metal...

Glad to be here!

 

Posting safety concerns is always appreciated, especially when intentionally making stuff go boom. And this thread might be of value for those who follow later.

 

I had not thought about this potential safety concern, but I did buy:

 

"... new, 7.5 shot, tumbled, graphited, delivered to your door with tracking and insurance."

 

I chose new as I did not want dirt, dents, damage, mixed sources, or whatever might be in the box. But safety was not in that list. Did not think safety might be an issue. Thanks for the contribution.

 

Have not yet looked to see what "graphited" means or why it might be important, Since the shipment is now hung in the USPS matrix, the insurance might turn out to be important too.

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"Graphited" means the shot has been "lubricated" with powdered graphite like what is used to lubricate locks.  It is a dry fine powder that will aid in the use of shotgun shell reloader like a MEC.  If you are going to use brass shotgun shells, it may not make a difference to you because you will probably be adding shot with a small dipper.

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11 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

...

According to my Lyman manual (5th edition) the STS produce the second lowest pressure for a given velocity in three separate examples (pg 45-46) which helps out with arthritic hands and wrists. By comparison the Federal 209A (not sure if it is a magnum version or not as I do not use it) generates between 900 to 2600 PSI more pressure than the Remington at the same velocity.

...

Best advice you have already been given from others... Get an appropriate manual and experiment a bit until you find something YOU like, what others like means very little except insomuch as it may shorten the time frame to get to your ideal load.

Exactly, shorten the time for what I want. And given how hard it is to find primers right now, putting effort and money into buying the wrong ones is a waste for myself and for those who really do want other certain brands.

 

I will dig into my reloading manual. Have a stack of them already and looking for a few specific additional ones (older editions). I have not cracked any of the manuals open yet, and I'm sure there is a wealth of information in them.

 

I had seen in my search for pistol primers that magnum primers might (likely) result in a hotter load, but it was a real surprise to me that primer selection in a single category like "simple" 209A shotshell primers might impact the load significantly, though not surprised FTF might be an issue.

 

At this point, I am glad I did not panic buy something I would end up not using.

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7 minutes ago, TN Mongo, SASS #61450 said:

"Graphited" means the shot has been "lubricated" with powdered graphite like what is used to lubricate locks.  It is a dry fine powder that will aid in the use of shotgun shell reloader like a MEC.  If you are going to use brass shotgun shells, it may not make a difference to you because you will probably be adding shot with a small dipper.

Makes sense.

 

The brass  shells are for the SxS. I also have a '97 to learn to run; I made a claim I think i can run a SxS faster than a '97... That claim stuck in my head so I will have to find out. I will also be reloading smokeless for 3gun. So looks like I ordered the right stuff.

 

I have no clue if I can even run brass shells in the '97, but even if I can I see no reason to do so. Don't even need them in the SxS, but they look pretty and should work well. And I can get started reloading something with a lower tool investment.

 

----------------------------

Note to myself:

 

Since I am here in this thread, add a dowel for lightly compressing powder in the MagTech brass shells, and investigate a hand priming tool... Found reports of primers igniting when pressing them in on a table top. Grit can apparently set them off.

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Posted (edited)

I exclusively shoot doubles now and have had issues in the past with shells not igniting in my SKB double shotguns.  Because of recommendation of others on this wire, I was introduced to Cheddite primers (made in France).  All my ignition problems disappeared and the bonus is that they are inexpensive.  I normally order them from Brownell's, but I just checked and they are currently out of stock.  I did find them on the Gander Mountain website listed below.  Please be aware if you order them, there is an added shipping charge and they must be signed for when they are delivered.

 

Here is the link to the website:

 

  https://www.ganderoutdoors.com/cheddite-209-shotshell-primer-217950.html

 

I also load for my wife who shoots 97s.  In my experience, 97s are not picky about what 209 primers you use.  I use whatever I can find in her 97 shotguns (real or Chinese).

Edited by TN Mongo, SASS #61450
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Possible legal issue I might need to deal with today (powder arrives tomorrow).

 

I have a training grenade, military surplus. I'm not even sure if it is loadable or just a dummy grenade. Or how to tell the difference.

 

Does having both powder and a training grenade put me in constructive possession of a destructive device?

 

I will get it out of the house asap if there is any truth to the concern. Might get it out of the house anyway until I find out if this is a legitimate concern. Had it since I was a teenager, would hate to get rid of it for sentimental reasons (it was a gift from a friend).

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On 7/15/2020 at 8:59 AM, John Kloehr said:

Possible legal issue I might need to deal with today (powder arrives tomorrow).

 

I have a training grenade, military surplus. I'm not even sure if it is loadable or just a dummy grenade. Or how to tell the difference.

 

Does having both powder and a training grenade put me in constructive possession of a destructive device?

 

I will get it out of the house asap if there is any truth to the concern. Might get it out of the house anyway until I find out if this is a legitimate concern. Had it since I was a teenager, would hate to get rid of it for sentimental reasons (it was a gift from a friend).

Not having a clear answer, but with input from other people I know (including an FFL), I moved the training grenade out of the house. Until I know it can not be made live or have clarity on the legal aspects, it will not be near me when I am near powder.

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So now I have powder (thanks @Scarlett).

 

Hand primer tools... Anyone got any input? The Magtech brass shells use large pistol primers. I can't sort out a good tool from the junk, and what I might need to fit the Magtech shells.

 

I would rather buy a tool than seat the primers by pushing down on the bench.

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Glad your APP arrived! :wub:  I have a Lee hand priming tool that I use VERY on the rarest occasions. I used to load on a single stage press and though hand priming would be easy. It’s not my favorite way to prime and...since I’ve gotten really busy in my business progressive loading is all I really do now. 
 

I’ll follow this post to see what others have to say!

 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

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Don't overlook the Forster Co-Ax desktop primer.

This is all metal, with no delicate plastic parts and stacks the primers horizontally to avoid any possible chain ignition.

https://www.amazon.com/Forster-Co-Ax-Bench-Priming-Tool/dp/B001RE4FPE/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=757253002229&qid=1594946627&sr=8-1

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Glad your APP arrived! :wub:  I have a Lee hand priming tool that I use VERY on the rarest occasions. I used to load on a single stage press and though hand priming would be easy. It’s not my favorite way to prime and...since I’ve gotten really busy in my business progressive loading is all I really do now. 
 

I’ll follow this post to see what others have to say!

 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

 

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 

3 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said:

I’ve got this one and really like it , built reasonably well for the price and you can adjust the seating depth 

 

https://www.frankfordarsenal.com/perfect-seat-hand-primer/110006.html#start=1

 

3 hours ago, bgavin said:

Don't overlook the Forster Co-Ax desktop primer.

This is all metal, with no delicate plastic parts and stacks the primers horizontally to avoid any possible chain ignition.

https://www.amazon.com/Forster-Co-Ax-Bench-Priming-Tool/dp/B001RE4FPE/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=757253002229&qid=1594946627&sr=8-1

 

None of the above will work for priming 12 gauge brass shot shells.

 

I believe CH4D makes a shell holder that would allow you to prime brass hulls on a single stage press as long as there is enough clearance.  I know for certain it can be done on a Rock Chucker and other presses that will accept 1 1/2-12 dies.

 

If the brass shot shell will fit through the hole the dies screw in then in theory you could use any single stage press.

 

  Not sure if it would work on a priming tool like the Forster or RCBS benchtop primers.

Edited by Sedalia Dave

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My apologies for misreading the intent being 12 gauge priming.

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I realized too late about the shotshells...I tried to delete but didn’t know how (bless my heart :wub:)

 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

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I'm priming 12ga brass hulls on a MEC Sizemaster.  I put a spent 209 primer on top of the seating die (the part on the bottom) and then manually place a LPP on the 209.  Pull down the handle and the primer is seated perfectly.

I did this because I already had the Sizemaster.  MEC also makes a LPP priming set up for the JR (I think).  MEC doesn't advertise it but a quick call and they have the whole kit and will tell you what machines it works with.

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23 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

 

 

 

None of the above will work for priming 12 gauge brass shot shells

 

I’ll just say “DOH” didn’t read enough to know we we’re talking shotshells 
 

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Magtech 12 GA Shotshell Mini-Project Update

 

Getting a bit ahead of my knowledge level, with no verified recipe or mentor. But punting and ordered the following from Ballistic Products:

 

Qty Description Total
1
Reloading Brass Shotshells manual (VanDenburg) 
Item: 00MBRASS   Price: $14.99  
$14.99  
1
Overshot Cards (500/bag)
11GA 
Item: OS 11   Price: $7.99  
$7.99  
1
Adjustable Shot Dipper 
Item: ASD   Price: $4.99  
$4.99  
1
Fiber Cushion Filler Wad 1/2
11ga 
Item: FC 11 GA   Price: $9.79  
$9.79  
1
.125 Maxi Nitro Card (500/bag)
11 
Item: NC 11   Price: $7.99  
$7.99  

 

If I end up finding out I can't use an item, I'll put it on the "Free Stuff" thread.

 

Prospective draft "recipe" I'm working against (THIS IS NOT A VERIFIED RECIPE!!!!):

  • Magtech (CBC) Brass 12 GA Hull
  • Federal Large Pistol Primer
  • 1 oz APP FFFg* **
  • Nitro Card (11 GA)
  • 1/2" Fiber Filler (11 GA)
  • 1 Oz 7-1/2 Lead Shot
  • Overshot Card (11 GA)
  • Sodium Silicate as Sealer (40% Concrete Sealer?)

This "recipe" is for discussion purposes only. Any resemblance to an actual test load should be considered coincidence or a lucky guess. I have no plan to load this or any recipe without more documentation. And note the "*" and "**";  they flag items I know I don't know.

 

I did pick up a Stoeger Coach Gun this month, and have run it with Fiocchi 3Gun (Hot) and Winchester AA (Warm) factory loads. I want to end up with a load a bit softer than the AAs but it has to pattern well too.

 

* By volume??? Powder measurement is not clear to me

** The APP shotshell recipes I found call for FFg, so I am cautious on the granularity

 

 

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