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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

possible rule change?

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Let's just accept that we are in agreement here on the OP question?  I think we are all pretty much  agreeing that the ULT would be the proper action to take in this case.   That was most of what I originally posted.  PWB corrected me on the other SDQ part, re: arriving at the LT with loaded guns.  I was reading P. 29, bullets 5 and 9, too expansively.  But with that said, I still question if the ninth bullet applies.  That would eliminate T. O. discretion and would require the person to go to the ULT.  

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

Sure DDD, if it makes you feel better and helps you save face lets leave it at that. ;)

 

In the future you might consider asking what the rule is rather than stating something and then getting corrected by multiple people.  Less embarrassing that way.

Whatever.   I'm pretty much done with this one--with all due respect.  

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19 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

saw a shooter once trip over a 4x4 that stuck out from a prop,, one of the early shooters of the match tripped over it, fell and loaded pistols fell out of holsters,,  MDQ

 

the prop was then fixed,,,

 

my question is,,, since it was a prop problem, that was fixed for everyone else,, should that MDQ be forgiven, seeing how the rest of the shooters of the match didn't have to deal with that issue?

 

Cheyenne,

This was an interesting question, but I think this thread has been hijacked and flown to another destination.

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3 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The fact that it was FIXED AFTER the shooter tripped over it makes it pretty clear that they thought it was unsafe! Reshoot!

 

THIS x 1000.   SCJ

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4 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

he fact that it was FIXED AFTER the shooter tripped over it makes it pretty clear that they thought it was unsafe! Reshoot!

Exactly!

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On 11/3/2019 at 10:21 PM, Griff said:

How many other shooters successfully negotiated the hazard?  If one or more, then shooter earned the MDQ.  If first shooter, then... yes, forgive MDQ and start over.

On 11/4/2019 at 4:44 AM, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Sorry Griff, have to disagree. This shooter lost an entire match to something that was deemed enough of a problem to change. All of the subsequent shooters had a different stage to shoot; I don't care how many shooters were able to get through it safely. Would you be ok with targets that were 20 yards away when you shot them and were moved up to 10 for everyone else? If it was a prop and if it was changed by match officials, then MDQ erased.

Neither of our answers are 100% correct.  I've seen this work in numerous ways.  Yes, where shooter was given a MDQ...  Where that one shooter was given a reshoot... where every shooter prior and the MDQ recipient were given reshoots.  And in the most fair scenario, the stage was thrown out.   When more than one shooter successfully negotiates a stage, and I'm talking not just the most athletic or physically fit amongst us, but several shooters of the more median physical prowess amongst our clientele, this is the sort of thing that is neither cut, nor dried.  I've seen club politics involve themselves in the decision process, and while one may HOPE that match size or prestige should NOT matter in the decision process, in the practical sense, it always does.  At the local monthly match level, if one of the shooters on my posse, had this situation, we were the 1st posse on the stage, and he was less than ½-way down the lineup of shooters, (AND we were of our average posse size), I'd change the obstruction, give everyone who'd shot the opportunity for a reshoot.  However, even our monthly shoots have a unique situation where we shoot the same stages on Sunday, that were shot on Saturday... so the 1st shooter on the stage Sunday isn't among the 1st shooter thru the stage.  However, if I thought it was severe enough, after discussing it with the MD, the stage would probably be thrown out... as per Widder's suggestion following.  Once the cusp of how many shooters can reasonably be accommodated with a reshoot has passed, this is (IMO), the ONLY option that makes sense.  And even it isn't really fair.  For it can be argued that any shooter's performance on that stage affects the standing of any number of shooters, and prove pivotal in the match results.  (How would YOU feel is the stage with your best performance was thrown out, and it was later determined that was the difference between a category or overall win for you)?

 

I'll re-iterate, it is not ever a cut & dried decision.  And I'm the last person to want to give a shooter a MDQ.  And while it's been many years since I was laughingly considered "competitive", I've had that 1st stage finish thrown out... and went from category win to 5th place.  EVERY decision has consequences.  Not every "safety call" on a stage prop has had 100% support...  I'd like to believe every one of us wants to err on the side of SAFETY, one has to look objectively at the circumstances.

 

BTW, my earlier response was short, not fully considered... (I hate responding on my tablet or phone)...;)  Being all thumbs in that case is not conducive to a more fleshed out answer.

 

On 11/4/2019 at 6:36 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I don't think any specific rule change is necessary.

 

My opinion:

I would vote NO RESHOOT based on the one shooter having a problem navigating the stage

in the manner described by the OP.

 

BUT...because that particular situation deemed it a safety issue that it was later removed for

everyone else, then YES, I would vote for a RESHOOT under those circumstances.

 

AND furthermore, I would allow those who already shot the stage an option for a reshoot

OR, throw out the stage for EVERYONE.

 

..........Widder

Thank you Widder.  The response I should have typed.

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Probably I belong to a minority with my opinion which is: If my gun drops and is not intentionally caused by somebody else then I earn the DQ in any case. Because in the very moment I decide to take the risk to carry and handle a gun I am fully responsible for it. This principle is called strict liability. Maybe it was not my fault, maybe it was nobody's fault (call it accident), and maybe it would have happend to anybody in the same situation, but it happend in my responsibility and I have to bear the consequences.

As I said this is just my opinion and you certainly don't have to agree with it, but I would surely appreciate if you think about it.

 

Equanimous

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Boy, we can dance all around this one, can't we? Yes, anytime a shooter has an opportunity for a reshoot, it's automatically an advantage for them as they have already shot it. Sorry to the folks that haven't shot it before it was physically changed (to make it safer) and the poor sap who actually had the issue tripped and fell, most likely injured themselves (as simple as a bruise) spilled their prize firearms out on the ground, got embarrassed in front of the posse, completely flustered, aggravated, wounded and completely thrown off their game. Yes, it is now an advantage for them. In fact, I try to trip over something on the stage, fall, drop a gun and get my DQ just so I can get a reshoot and get that advantage. ;)

Politics and slants in one direction or another happen, they just do; we are human.

But still, if the stage is deemed unsafe and changed to remove the safety hazard, the folks who faced the stage BEFORE the change, should be offered a reshoot and any DQ removed. Yes, you could throw out the stage (match officials' choice), but I would really hope the stages were looked at enough to avoid something like this before the match (especially a large match). Do things happen that we don't foresee? Of course they do, make the MOST FAIR call you can and move on. Will everyone be happy? Is everyone ever happy?

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NO.   NO.   NO.   NOBODY GETS IT!!!  In our current atmosphere, we DO NOT throw out the Stage.  In our current atmosphere of blaming the SHOOTER for everything, we THROW OUT THE SHOOTER.  Fix the stage??  Sure.  Give a Reshoot??  NEVER.   The current attitude simply does not support "Tie goes to the Runner"  nor Benefit of the doubt goes to the SHOOTER.  Why has everyone become so quick to find a way to penalize the shooter??  After all, isn't this GAME suppose to be about FUN??  Pretty stupid to leave a 4 X 4 in the path of movement inna first place waddinit

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OOPS.  Forgot.  Sorry Culpepper.  No.  No rule change is necessary.  Common Sense is necessary.  Stop being so quick to throw the SHOOTER under the BUS.

 

OOPS 2:  I did not mean Culpepper was too quick to throw the SHOOTER under the BUS.  Culpepper wouldn't do dat  :)

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