Red Knee Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Is the action slide lock necessary....any safety issues shooting without it? Red Knee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I recommend leaving it as is, and not disabling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Taking it out will not speed you up one bit. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Taking it out will not speed you up one bit. Stan Have know some guys that did OK without them, but have seen it result in more jacked rounds than time cut. Yeah I"m sure there is somebody rocking one, but the above is advice from one of the best 97' shooters in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Red Knee, after consulting a couple good 97 smiths about the safety factor, they both told me what Deuce stated above concerning jacked out rounds. I removed mine, ESPECIALLY in my dry fire SG. And I agree with Stan.....I can't discern any speed advantage. p.s. - I've seen you shoot your 97. Just how fast are you wanting to burn that baby? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I am not smarter than John Browning and am not qualified to answer this inquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Sackett Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I removed mine years ago so it can be opened back up quickly after you've missed the port! Otherwise no advantages. LS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I wrote the following OP a long time ago, under an assumed alias, as an experiment to see how a newcomer to the wire would be treated if they posted a pointed, yet valid technical post and stood their ground. Got a lot of heat from many respondents. Many still mistakenly believe that the slide lock is recoil operated, or is a "Time -lock" device that can somehow magically sense a hang-fire and prevent the action from opening in that instance (no it isn't/can't), but none could effectively refute what I stated... I've since come to understand that back in the day, the slide lock was typically set so tightly, and under a bit of slide spring tension, that it would only be disengaged when the hammer was down, and the slide moved forward either manually or by recoil. The rest of my views on the slide lock haven't changed... The Slide Lock on the '97 shotgun is worse than worthless for the application of CAS.John Browning incorporated the slide lock in the 97's design so the loaded gun could be locked in a static, ready state as is desirable in hunting, defensive or patrolling applications, thus insuring that the slide would not unintentionally travel rearward, rendering the gun inoperable when needed. This state of locked and loaded readiness is not used in CAS. We don't walk, or stand around with loaded shotguns. Shot guns are open when the timer goes off. Rounds are loaded on the clock, immediately chambered, and fired. Removing the slide lock might not make the gun cycle any faster, but an out of adjustment slide lock, or pulling back on the slide too soon, before the slide lock has had a chance to disengage when a shot is fired, will sure as hell make it slower. The 8 individual components of the slide lock system are not part of the firing system of the '97 shotgun. The slide lock cannot enable, nor disable the gun from firing. What does actually disable a properly-maintained '97 from firing is having the carrier in the down position, which causes the firing pin lock to engage, pulls the hammer out of alignment with the firing pin, as well as pulling the sear link out of proximity to the trigger. When the slide is pushed forward, the carrier rises and nests under the bolt, which depresses the firing pin lock toggle on the bottom of the bolt, giving the firing pin a clear path to the primer. Also as the carrier rises, the hammer comes into alignment with the firing pin, and, the sear link, at the back/bottom of the carrier, is swung into contact with the trigger. None of this has anything to do with the slide lock.Myth: The slide lock will prevent out of battery discharge on the '97. No, it won't.The slide lock only engages after the action is closed. What causes a properly-aligned shotshell to OBD in the '97 is a faulty, or removed, firing pin lock, and/or an improperly adjusted sear link-to-trigger relationship. If the sear link-to-trigger contact is too strong when the action is not fully closed, and the firing pin block isn't operating correctly, then the gun can have an OBD. Once again, this has nothing to do with the slide lock. The '97 is designed to slam-fire. IF the gun is capable of OBD (allowing the sear to be tripped, and the firing pin block to be by-passed before the gun is locked) it will most likely do it when slam-firing, since the trigger is already being pulled, which reduces the distance the carrier has to travel upward before the sear is tripped (and the gun won't give a horse's backside if the slide lock is operational, or even present). For what it's worth, to avoid controversy, my slide locks are intact, and kept precisely adjusted, and I still know that for the application of CAS, they're worthless. Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I wrote the following along time ago, under an assumed alias, as an experiment to see how a newcomer to the wire would be treated if they posted a pointed, yet valid technical post and stood their ground. Got a lot of heat from many respondents. Many still mistakenly believe that the slide lock is recoil operated, or is a "Time -lock" device that can somehow magically sense a hang-fire and prevent the action from opening (no it isn't/can't), but none could effectively refute what was stated... The Slide Lock on the '97 shotgun is worse than worthless for the application of CAS. John Browning incorporated the slide lock in the 97's design for one reason and one reason only: so the loaded gun could be locked in a static, ready state as is desirable in hunting, defensive or patrolling applications, thus insuring that the slide would not unintentionally travel rearward, rendering the gun inoperable when needed. This state of locked and loaded readiness is not used in CAS. We don't walk, or stand around with loaded shotguns. Shot guns are open when the timer goes off. Rounds are loaded on the clock, immediately chambered, and fired. Removing the slide lock might not make the gun cycle any faster, but an out of adjustment slide lock, or pulling back on the slide too soon, before the slide lock has had a chance to disengage when a shot is fired, will sure as hell make it slower. The 8 individual components of the slide lock system are not part of the firing system of the '97 shotgun. The slide lock cannot enable, nor disable the gun from firing. What does actually disable a properly-maintained '97 from firing is having the carrier in the down position, which causes the firing pin lock to engage, pulls the hammer out of alignment with the firing pin, as well as pulling the sear link out of proximity to the trigger. When the slide is pushed forward, the carrier rises and nests under the bolt, which depresses the firing pin lock toggle on the bottom of the bolt, giving the firing pin a clear path to the primer. Also as the carrier rises, the hammer comes into alignment with the firing pin, and, the sear link, at the back/bottom of the carrier, is swung into contact with the trigger. None of this has anything to do with the slide lock. Myth: The slide lock will prevent out of battery discharge on the '97. No, it won't. The slide lock only engages after the action is closed. What causes a properly-aligned shotshell to OBD in the '97 is a faulty, or removed, firing pin lock, and/or an improperly adjusted sear link-to-trigger relationship. If the sear link-to-trigger contact is too strong when the action is not fully closed, and the firing pin block isn't operating correctly, then the gun can have an OBD. Once again, this has nothing to do with the slide lock. The '97 is designed to slam-fire. IF the gun is capable of OBD (allowing the sear to be tripped, and the firing pin block to be by-passed before the gun is locked) it will most likely do it when slam-firing, since the trigger is already being pulled, which reduces the distance the carrier has to travel upward before the sear is tripped (and the gun won't give a horse's backside if the slide lock is operational, or even present). For what it's worth, to avoid controversy, my slide locks are intact, and kept precisely adjusted, and I still know that for the application of CAS, they're worthless. Maker So are you saying keep them in? Or take them out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 So are you saying keep them in? Or take them out? Howdy Deuce, I'm saying that for CAS, a properly-adjusted slidelock just doesn't matter whether it's in the gun or not, but an improperly working one will definetly slow you down (true, if it is removed you can jack a live round out just like you can with a CAS rifle, which brings up a good point... our rifles don't have "Lever-Locks" that prevent the levers from opening until the hammer has fallen, yet we still manage to survive it). I leave mine in only because I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a shooter came under scrutiny at a shoot if His/Her slidelock were removed. Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I wrote the following along time ago, under an assumed alias, as an experiment to see how a newcomer to the wire would be treated if they posted a pointed, yet valid technical post and stood their ground. Got a lot of heat from many respondents. Many still mistakenly believe that the slide lock is recoil operated, or is a "Time -lock" device that can somehow magically sense a hang-fire and prevent the action from opening (no it isn't/can't), but none could effectively refute what was stated... The Slide Lock on the '97 shotgun is worse than worthless for the application of CAS. John Browning incorporated the slide lock in the 97's design for one reason and one reason only: so the loaded gun could be locked in a static, ready state as is desirable in hunting, defensive or patrolling applications, thus insuring that the slide would not unintentionally travel rearward, rendering the gun inoperable when needed. This state of locked and loaded readiness is not used in CAS. We don't walk, or stand around with loaded shotguns. Shot guns are open when the timer goes off. Rounds are loaded on the clock, immediately chambered, and fired. Removing the slide lock might not make the gun cycle any faster, but an out of adjustment slide lock, or pulling back on the slide too soon, before the slide lock has had a chance to disengage when a shot is fired, will sure as hell make it slower. The 8 individual components of the slide lock system are not part of the firing system of the '97 shotgun. The slide lock cannot enable, nor disable the gun from firing. What does actually disable a properly-maintained '97 from firing is having the carrier in the down position, which causes the firing pin lock to engage, pulls the hammer out of alignment with the firing pin, as well as pulling the sear link out of proximity to the trigger. When the slide is pushed forward, the carrier rises and nests under the bolt, which depresses the firing pin lock toggle on the bottom of the bolt, giving the firing pin a clear path to the primer. Also as the carrier rises, the hammer comes into alignment with the firing pin, and, the sear link, at the back/bottom of the carrier, is swung into contact with the trigger. None of this has anything to do with the slide lock. Myth: The slide lock will prevent out of battery discharge on the '97. No, it won't. The slide lock only engages after the action is closed. What causes a properly-aligned shotshell to OBD in the '97 is a faulty, or removed, firing pin lock, and/or an improperly adjusted sear link-to-trigger relationship. If the sear link-to-trigger contact is too strong when the action is not fully closed, and the firing pin block isn't operating correctly, then the gun can have an OBD. Once again, this has nothing to do with the slide lock. The '97 is designed to slam-fire. IF the gun is capable of OBD (allowing the sear to be tripped, and the firing pin block to be by-passed before the gun is locked) it will most likely do it when slam-firing, since the trigger is already being pulled, which reduces the distance the carrier has to travel upward before the sear is tripped (and the gun won't give a horse's backside if the slide lock is operational, or even present). For what it's worth, to avoid controversy, my slide locks are intact, and kept precisely adjusted, and I still know that for the application of CAS, they're worthless. Maker Pot stirring under an alternate alias is usually frowned upon in this establishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Pot stirring under an alternate alias is usually frowned upon in this establishment. Not just "usually" S.A.H... Always, I'd bet that millions of folks get angry everyday when they can't disprove a valid point. Seems it's particularly intolerable (and usually dismissed) when the valid point comes from a "new guy" who won't give in to popular consensus just to fit in. The worst thing I said in the thread was that I believed that a respondent's view was "arbitrary" or "irrelevant" when he couldn't articulate a valid explanation contrary to what I'd stated. In contrast, the respondents got so hot that the thread was locked-out in exactly 81 minutes. Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Not "usually" SAH... Always, I'd bet that millions of folks get angry everyday when they can't disprove a valid point. Seems it's particularly intolerable (and usually dismissed) when the valid point comes from a "new guy" who won't give in to popular consensus just to fit in. The worst thing I said in the thread was that I believed that a respondent's view was "arbitrary" or "irrelevant" when they couldn't articulate a valid explanation contrary to what I'd stated. In contrast, the respondents got so hot that the thread was locked-out in exactly 81 minutes. Maker I've been "victim" of that very thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I've been "victim" of that very spot. Unfortunately it's the growing pains on this forum. I've discovered that the most difficult personalities on the wire are actually pretty decent in person or they're just not relevant in the game anymore and you won't see them at matches anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knee Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Ok guys, I really appreciate everyone's input. Always interested in hearing Duece's, Stan's and Widders take on the 97. Logan...I've missed the port more than all of ya here:) just ask Widder... Tom B...I sure ain't smarter than JB myself, but just fool enough to tinker with it. My question stemmed from me purchasing a 1956 97 E model million plus serial number gun here on the wire. Absolutely beautiful gun, except for a bluing blemish on the left side of the receiver bout quarter size. Because of the blemish I had planned on bead blasting certain parts and polishing the rest to a "in the white" look. I've got a couple others that are "in the white", so I wanted this one to be different. Well, as I was taking parts back and forth from the bench to the bead blaster and then to the polisher, I noticed the action slide lock was missing. No big deal, got several parts guns to rob from.... So last night I was deciding which 3 97's to take to Land Run next weekend.....I really wanted to debut my new creation but remembered it was missing the action slide lock......started looking around, only good runnin' 97's to steal parts from, crap....thus my question posted here..... After several responses reassuring that it was safe....stepped outside and let her rip. Good to go! Thanks again, Red Knee Here's the finished critter. Hope the pic comes through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knee Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 <iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/redknee2/embed/slideshow/Mobile%20Uploads"></iframe> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knee Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 There's the pic....geez, fixing gun up was easier than postin a pic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I can't seem to bring up the pix. Hope I get to see AND SHOT it in Sept at 'Hell Fire'. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Here are a few items you folks may not know or have thought about, concerning the 97. (And a valid reason to remove the slide lock bar). 1. Never, ever pull back on the slide as the gun is fired, especially with hotter ammunition. The result is extreme sudden pressure applied to the very thin slide lock bar, where it can break right at it's weakest point and lock your gun up so hopelessly, that only with the use of a special tool can the action be opened again. 2. Removing the slide lock bar, actuator spring. screws (one small and one very small), pivot pin and cross over pin, will allow the hammer to fall unrestricted, the last 1/2 inch of travel, which will allow lowering the pressure of the main spring strain screw even more, when coupled with a new titanium furing pin and rebound spring, your 97 will take on a whole new life ! 3. Wild Bunch rapid firing of six shots with the lock bar still inside the gun, can and will cause misfires and jacked out live rounds. The lock bar releases as the hammer is almost fully down on the firing pin and if using an old Winchester with the heavy free floating firing pin still in the gun will not allow the lock bar to disengage exactly when it should, thus, disrupting your timing The reason is because the old firing pin sticks out the rear of the bolt almost 1/2 inch and that 1/2 inch is exactly when the hammer detent is supposed to allow the release arm on the rear end of the lock bar to contact the cam hole in the hammer. If that timing is messed up for any reason, the result is jacking out a live round and having to take a miss in Wild Bunch shooting. Oh, and if you think a model 12 will cure all that, think again. 4. Technology has advanced in M-97 firearms so far since our sport was invented, that some folks still cling to the old notion that the Winchester is the only way to go, when in fact, the old girls need to be hung on the mantel to be looked at and to be replaced with modern M-97's that are much stronger, a world apart better when it comes to safety, reliability and longevity. Even now, there is a disagreement with engineers of the new 97's as to remove the lock bars for the Cowboy Comps as the dang things are creating problems with speed cycling and slam firing in Wild Bunch ! "Cap" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Back when I posted the thread stating that the slide lock was worthless for CAS (post #8 on this thread), the 'ol boys on the wire called me a "Troll", "Dead Wrong", it was written that I was; "Slam'n the greatest & most prolific gun designer of all time", that the slide lock had to be in place because it was "in the rules", another wrote "I won't waste my time attempting to educate someone whom will not understand it anyway" and that my "reading comprehension is what's challenged, I'm done with you!" And, once again, the most derogatory remark I made was stating that a respondents post was "arbitrary" or "irrelevant" when they couldn't offer an articulate argument... Hallelujah, it seems we may have made some progress since then. Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Howdy Maker, Although I shot a 97, I'm not knowledgable enough to talk about how this n that works inside the SG. But, about 4 years back, I was told that a Marlin would never work with an angle feed modification AND, Marlins were overall length sensitive and it would be IMPOSSIBLE to make one run with ammo as short as the C45S round (approx 1.240 OAL) and the .45 Colt round (approx 1.600 OAL) interchangeably in the magtube. Last Saturday, I handed a good friend his Marlin, gave him multiple rounds from 1.220 all the way up to 1.640 and it ran flawless for him. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I suspect that not every shooter with a 97 shoots an average stage in less than 20 seconds, and not everyone has the smithing skill of a man like Jim Bowie. That being said, gunsmithing advice can be as dangerous as handing someone a grenade. Most of our long guns have either a bolt or bolt extension that are just about centered on your shooting eye when properly aimed. So, if you mess with something that causes that bolt or extension to return to its most rearward position in a few milliseconds, you are placing a lot of reliance on the gun's frame to stop that rearward progress. I guess that's a long way of saying that while removing a slide lock may or may not be a good idea, it could be just another departure from spec that leaves a shotgun more prone to other types of failures. For example: Is the action timed improperly? If so, what are the chances that a slightly opened bolt and a trigger pull will result in rearward bolt acceleration? These are things that used to trouble me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Thank you, Manatee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knee Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 <iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/redknee2/embed/Mobile%20Uploads/story"></iframe> Still tryin to figure out this picture thang... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 We remove transfer bars from Rugers, we replace cross bolt safeties in Marlins with fake safety pieces, and we remove or neutralize the auto safety features of alot of the SxS shotguns. Is the action slide lock any different? Just curious. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awful Close Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 From my experience, I consider Manatee to be the one of, if not the best expert on the 97 shotgun. One night he located the source of the problem with my 97 through many back and forth emails. This was only a few months after I had paid a top rated 97 expert to prepare it for CAS use. The problem was the bolt never came back as far as it should. The slide had come out after I racked it forward at speed. As it turned out, the previous owner of the gun had re-attached the slide stop to the mag tube and had put it in the wrong place (too far forward). A new old stock magazine tube cured that problem. That said, i have removed the the slide lock mechanism from both of my 97's. One a 1946 Winchester and the other a 2004 Chinese. I have not removed the locks for speed, etc. The reason I removed the slide lock - THE SLIDE LOCK BARS BREAK. I have seen 5 examples; 4 Winchesters and 1 Chinese. They break at the back of the bar. When that happens, you can push the button all day long and nothing is going to happen, you are locked up. I purchased a box of 97 parts at a Garage Sale and included was a late 1930's frame that was complete except for the right mag release button mechanism. Someone had removed that mechanism in an unsuccessful effort to release the broken bar by sliding a thin feeler gauge between the broken bar and the frame. Also in the box was a carrier that someone had rough cut a long and wide slot in the bottom and freed the bar from the frame. The carrier was only good for use in a load-through-the-port gun. The last option is to actually spread the frame open until the bar is freed; the trick is in getting the frame back to its original configuration. I am not convinced that the slide lock was part of Browning's original design. Someone recently posted that he had one of the first 97's and it did not have an ejector in the frame nor a button on the right side. I have heard that the Slide Lock's original purpose was to prevent shooter injuries from HANG FIRES caused by wet, paper shotgun shells that someone would eject about the same time as the shell fired. This ruined many a left handed shooters day. When looking at the other robust parts inside the 97, I always thought from the first time I saw them that the slide lock mechanism pieces were an add on. However if someone came out with a guaranteed non-breakable slide lock bar, I would probably reinstall the locks in both my 97's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 There's the pic....geez, fixing gun up was easier than postin a pic! As far as I know, you can't post a slideshow, although you can a video... anyway, here's your pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Nice job, Red Knee. I bet you have to spray asbestos lube on it just to keep it from catching on fire when you run it wide open... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knee Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 Griff, Thanks pard for postin the pic!! I can spend days upon days workin on a 97......but about 15 minutes on this new android alien some call a phone and I'm certifiable.....anyway thanks again, I appreciate it. Red Knee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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