Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Your going into combat ;)/> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/23/panetta-opens-combat-roles-to-women/ GG ~ :FlagAm:/> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubborn Dutchman, SASS # 61363 Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Well those terrorists in sandland better watch out now. Women in Mens cloths, sporting automatic weapons, on the front line. And every 28 day, they have a Real Bad Attitude! Go get-um ladies! I'll get out of your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Having participated in this discussion numerous times (really numerous) on a couple of military forums I believe I shall refrain from responding. As a friend ofmine says in mostof his posts.... "and so it goes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Having participated in this discussion numerous times (really numerous) on a couple of military forums I believe I shall refrain from responding. As a friend ofmine says in mostof his posts.... "and so it goes." ;)/> It's been a subject here as well...just thought I'd share the news :D/> GG ~ :FlagAm:/> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Well those terrorists in sandland better watch out now. Women in Mens cloths, sporting automatic weapons, on the front line. And every 28 day, they have a Real Bad Attitude! ;)/> Go get-um ladies! I'll get out of your way. :FlagAm:/> Philly Slim slowly and casually slides a step or three away from the Stubborn Dutchman so as not to get hit by any incoming fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 PS will be my shield.......AGAIN....... LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Your going into combat ;)/>/> GG ~ :FlagAm:/>/> You're... I like it myself. Talk to the Israelis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 You're... :rolleyes:/> :P/> :lol:/> I like it myself. Talk to the Israelis. I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I have. And... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 And... It didn't work out well. The IDF females you see on tv are not in frontline combat units and have not been since 1950, after the first Arab-Israeli War. They are an essential element in the army but not as combat troops, according to an IDF colonel I talked to a few years ago. Israeli military historian Martin Van Creveld has also written about the subject. I have now violated my vow to stay out of this. Dammit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 It didn't work out well. The IDF females you see on tv are not in frontline combat units and have not been since 1950, after the first Arab-Israeli War. They are an essential element in the army but not as combat troops, according to an IDF colonel I talked to a few years ago. Israeli military historian Martin Van Creveld has also written about the subject. I have now violated my vow to stay out of this. Dammit. :rolleyes:/> No, no, I'm FOS, but I am very interested in this, especially in female combat pilots. Being married to a GI doc who had to bust the good old boys club (she was the first female GI fellow at Brooke Army Medical Center), I am all for females seeking new arenas. Can they hack the arena of war? I believe only a field trial will prove it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 It didn't work out well. The IDF females you see on tv are not in frontline combat units and have not been since 1950, after the first Arab-Israeli War. They are an essential element in the army but not as combat troops, according to an IDF colonel I talked to a few years ago. Israeli military historian Martin Van Creveld has also written about the subject. I have now violated my vow to stay out of this. Dammit. :rolleyes:/>/> OK, I'll violate my 20+ year vow of silence on this (from 1992), also. I was there (Israel) in '78 in a military capacity and had the same discussion with IDF leadership, with the exact same data and same conclusions provided from folks who had lived this under fire (surrounded by enemies less than 30 mi away) since the 50s. It goes to the foundational issue of the basic small combat unit and why individuals fight as they do in that small unit. Under fire, it is not about individual patriotism or grand vision at that point, but about the individual loyalty and personal bonding of the PERSONS (men for centuries) in the small unit, under life threatening experiences, daily. These small combat units (6-20) have PERSONALLY bonded under training and operational hyper-dynamic combat stress. When TSHTF their personal loyalty to each other dominates. Those bonds are what makes them effective as unit, intensely loyal to each other, the unit and it's mission. That which weakens those bonds threatens the combat effectiveness of the unit and the greater effort they are a part of. Here is the key to the issue: introducing biology (sexual dynamics and rampant young hormones - most of these folks are 18-23 - we are talking high school and early college folks here) into this personal small group hyper-dynamic can and will (and has), more often than not, break the collective and individual bonds in the small combat unit, and thus their effectiveness. We can "elevate" the conversation about male/female equality all we want, but intra-personal dynamics ranging from jealously on one end (triangles from close contact) to chivalrous protectionism on the other, can absolutely kill the combat effectiveness of this unit, and place all of them, and their mission, in jeopardy. There ARE additional factors and data, but this gets to the core of it, in my personal experience. Feel free to flame away, Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I really dont feel good about this. Yes women are on the front lines right now but having them serve in a regular duty combat arms MOS slot is wrong as far as I'm concerned. Biology, psychology, cultural history among a myriad of other factors all come in to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 I am worried that the physical standard will be less - from what my neice (Army LT) tells me there IS a difference in boot camp training for women than there is for men. I am all for our women serving - especially as pilots, logistics and leadership positions. I do beleive that there are some women that would perform better than some men in actual combat. However, I would hope that the ability is based on the person rather than the gender. All said...Allen West's position seems coherent "On SecDef Leon Panetta's statement re: opening up direct combat billets to women. First of all, lwomen in combat zones are serving in combat and the new 21st century battlefield means anyone outside of their FOB( Forward Operating Base) will potentially be engaged in a combat situation. However, to make the insidious policy decision that we shall now open up combat billets to women is something completely different. GI Jane was a movie and should not be the basis for a policy shift. I know Martha McSally, have known women who are Apache and Cobra helicopter pilots, and served with women who were MPs, but being on the ground and having to go mano y mano in close combat is a completely different environment. I completely disagree with this decision and can just imagine all the third and fourth order effects and considerations for implementation, such as standards for training. Unless the Obama administration has not noticed we are fighting against a brutal enemy and now is not the time to play a social experiment with our ground combat forces. President Obama, as Commander-in-Chief, should be focused on sequestration and the failure of his policies in the Middle East. This is the misconceived liberal progressive vision of fairness and equality which could potentially lead to the demise of our military." GG ~ :FlagAm:/>/>/> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Heres a link that came to me via Michael Graham's natural truth on facebook. I dont know the author of the book but maybe those in charge should have read this along with internal reports... http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/01/24/repost_co-ed_co.html#.UQE_ezA5OrI.twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 No, no, I'm FOS, but I am very interested in this, especially in female combat pilots. Being married to a GI doc who had to bust the good old boys club (she was the first female GI fellow at Brooke Army Medical Center), I am all for females seeking new arenas. Can they hack the arena of war? I believe only a field trial will prove it out. Thee is of course a bifg difference in combat pilots and combat infantrymen(infantrypeople?) Females have already proven to be effective in the air. But with frontline ground units the phisiological differences may prove to be insurmountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finagler 6853 Life Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I can think of a few women I'd put up front of everyone. I'm not sure it would be fair to enemy combatants. Everyone knows women don't fight fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Here is the key to the issue: introducing biology (sexual dynamics and rampant young hormones - most of these folks are 18-23 - we are talking high school and early college folks here) into this personal small group hyper-dynamic can and will (and has), more often than not, break the collective and individual bonds in the small combat unit, and thus their effectiveness. Well I can personally attest to this fact. During Desert Storm, we had to lock up our DEPMEDS X-Ray unit at night. Folks were sneaking in at night and using the table for their love trysts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Beat me up if you will...... I think this putting women in combat positions is silly nonsense done entirely for the wrong reasons. I think men and women have their rightful place and rightfully should be proud of the strengths God blessed them with while recognizing the weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 Beat me up if you will...... I think this putting women in combat positions is silly nonsense done entirely for the wrong reasons. I think men and women have their rightful place and rightfully should be proud of it. Understand that too... GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I think this thoroughly explains our "leaders" logic in their decision: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 And now let's hear from the ladies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVKmaYOES0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 And this is what we hope doesn't happen, in battle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Or this (replace scenery with starry night in Afghanistan and digital camo): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvrYGMoX2fA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I think women have proven themselves to be sufficiently capable of performing certain duties in combat. Their courage and willingness to fight for their country is not in question as far as I'm concerned. But there are a number of other issues. It's a complex problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I have known some who I think could do a really good job in combat. Lafitte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 and about the draft - hmmmmm.... GG ~ :FlagAm:/> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 and about the draft - hmmmmm.... GG ~ :FlagAm:/>/> There is no draft. There is only Selective Service registration. I doubt there will ever be another draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 There is no draft. There is only Selective Service registration. I doubt there will ever be another draft. I know there is no draft NOW....i was referring to the future if one came back. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/24/decision-to-allow-women-in-combat-roles-raises-questions-about-draft/ GG ~ :FlagAm:/> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 It will never happen. And you can quote me on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 It will never happen. And you can quote me on that. ;)/> I have learned that 'never' is a word to not to employ ;)/> GG ~ :FlagAm:/> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I have learned that 'never' is a word to not to employ ;)/>/> GG ~ :FlagAm:/>/> In this case, I'm comfortable with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 In this case, I'm comfortable with it. :D/> Suit yourself GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hey maybe thepurpose of the awb is to disarm potential conscripts and thus avoid messy draft riots like 1863. Actually in case of an exterrestrial invasion, I imagine a draft would be instituted. 'Course it wouldn't do any good what with them using warp drives and death rays and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Set up a FOB in Afghanistan with all women. Give them an area to control and see what happens. If they prove themselves, they're integration into the normal combat units will be more accepted. If the right people are given the opportunity, they can change your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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