Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 NO! It is gender discriminatory. There are always fewer women in the shooting sports and something like this will make for even fewer of them participating. There should be a Ladies category corresponding to every mens category. To make women shoot in the same category with men places the women at an extreme disadvantage. Some may think and say there are officially no "Men" categories but the reality is that there are in everyones eyes. Hey Darlin'! I see you are signed up for the Regional. Please look me up. I NEED to give y'all a hug! Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 As much as I want FCGF to be recognized as an official category, I think if this passes it would put FCGF in a bad light for many shooters. I would rather plead or hunt for a category to shoot in than force the ladies or their spouses to do the pleading or hunting. How is that for a selfless if slightly male shovanist (how do you spell that word?) attitude? Smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 As much as I want FCGF to be recognized as an official category, I think if this passes it would put FCGF in a bad light for many shooters. I would rather plead or hunt for a category to shoot in than force the ladies or their spouses to do the pleading or hunting. How is that for a selfless if slightly male shovanist (how do you spell that word?) attitude? Smoke Spoken by a true gentleman. Regards, Allie "who still loves to see a gentleman in action" Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Phil DeGrave SASS #55202 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Who let the politiacians in here?? Instead of grouping all the items in together (like the health bill) lets look at them case by case. I feel every mans cat should offer a ladies cat as well. I WANT, NEED, DESIRE, MUST HAVE a FCGF (mens and ladies) this year. If you offer age based cats, I would allow more senior folks to shoot in the younger folks cats. I think if one grand dame shows up she should have her own cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Who let the politiacians in here?? Instead of grouping all the items in together (like the health bill) lets look at them case by case. I feel every mans cat should offer a ladies cat as well. I WANT, NEED, DESIRE, MUST HAVE a FCGF (mens and ladies) this year. If you offer age based cats, I would allow more senior folks to shoot in the younger folks cats. I think if one grand dame shows up she should have her own cat. What's with all the discrimination against dogs??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge'm All Duncan, SASS#67320 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 In my opinion, and you can take it for what you think it's worth. For the last two years, myself and some other like minded pards have been on the wire pushing to get FRONTIER CARTRIDGE GUNFIGHTER as a LEGAL SASS category. We went from 58% yes votes in 2009 to 63% yes votes in 2010. We had enough interest to get it added on a trial basis at EOT 2011 and we had 16 or 17 pards show up and shoot it. I figured this would be the year that FCGF would become a reality at all SASS State and Regional matches. But when you throw it in with this wish list that I believe most folks will vote against I think that we FCGF fans are going to be left holding the SHORT END of the STICK once again. If FCGF is a SASS "Recognized Category" then it will be on the State and Regional Match Applications. That way when you look at the app. you know what to sign up for. If it is not listed then you have to rustle up 3-5 shooters to be accepted. IMO I want to look at the application and know right away that it is offered. I know that most everywhere in the South and Northeast FCGF is an accepted andon the application category. And that is where I will go and spend my shooting dollars. Thanks for listening, Judge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Phil DeGrave SASS #55202 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 In my opinion, and you can take it for what you think it's worth. For the last two years, myself and some other like minded pards have been on the wire pushing to get FRONTIER CARTRIDGE GUNFIGHTER as a LEGAL SASS category. We went from 58% yes votes in 2009 to 63% yes votes in 2010. We had enough interest to get it added on a trial basis at EOT 2011 and we had 16 or 17 pards show up and shoot it. I figured this would be the year that FCGF would become a reality at all SASS State and Regional matches. But when you throw it in with this wish list that I believe most folks will vote against I think that we FCGF fans are going to be left holding the SHORT END of the STICK once again. If FCGF is a SASS "Recognized Category" then it will be on the State and Regional Match Applications. That way when you look at the app. you know what to sign up for. If it is not listed then you have to rustle up 3-5 shooters to be accepted. IMO I want to look at the application and know right away that it is offered. I know that most everywhere in the South and Northeast FCGF is an accepted andon the application category. And that is where I will go and spend my shooting dollars. Thanks for listening, Judge +1 Thanks Judge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Jim Hancock Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 No. I think every category should have an "official" ladies version. DITTO WHAT DOC SAID! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Graham, # 26112 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Not offering the ladies the same category choices as the men seems like a bad plan in a shooting sport that has always been known to be very welcoming to lady shooters. It doesn't seem to match up to the SASS way of being extra nice to the ladies and making them feel wanted. I want a FCGF category as bad as any of my Soot Brothers, but not like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I don't disagree... but also remember that there are NO MEN'S CATEGORIES in SASS. The Ladies have many more categories to shoot in as the men do. I've always thought that it would be better to have Each category broken down into MEN AND WOMEN... but after years of beating my head to the wall, I've finally accepted the fact that ALL categories are available to Women... but ONLY the basic category is available to the Men. O-Well... Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireball #7709 Life Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Hi again, Would this item be acceptable if it were amended to have a corresponding ladies' category for all categories? That would mean that we are adding the following categories: FCGF, 75-79, and 80+. We would also be limiting age-based to a closed range. I think the closed range should be dropped from this item if agenda item 2 does not pass. Please, when your TG talks to you about these items, let them know if certain amendments would change your vote. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Adding the Ladies to each category would make it more acceptable, Allie. As it is worded now, my club is voting 2 to 1, against. And not just the ladies opposing it, either! I think some guys are scared they might have to compete with the gentler sex ~ and lose! (Shouldn't we be used to it by now?) Actually, it is a fairness issue to everyone who has responded with a negative. And while I have my own opinions about the various issues, I will be voting as the majority of the club members (at least those who e-mail me) direct. Buena suerte, eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Winter Range will never offer FCGF unless it is a SASS catagory. So if we want that then it needs to be official. but I am not going to vote for something that will also take away all my catagories ie LFC, LFCD & LFCGF. Taking away the Ladies catagories is not right. Let us have our catagories and add FCGF. I do think the ES is getting so big that would be great to have another division there but 2? maybe not I think that 1 would be good. I think that the Grand Dame's should have theirs. I think if we start taking away ladies catagories they are going to go too! We do not want that I do not want that. I have advised my TG of my thoughts. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Hi Painted Filly, I didn't know that about Winter Range. Thank you for the information, even if it stinks. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I'm gonna' say this . . . if I send in my money for a state or regional shoot months ahead and the category I signed up for is not recognized because not enough shooters signed up and I'm put into another category that I don't want to shoot in and I don't have the option of getting my money back in full, someone is going to hear about it! NO!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I would certainly vote No unless the ladies were added back to all Mens Categories. Whoever it was that left them out wasn't thinking clearly. I do like the relief in ES, as I'm at the upper end in age in that category and really can't compete with the younger men in that category. Doesn't really matter though. Actually I like everything about the proposal, except the omission of the Ladies Categories. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finagler 6853 Life Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 There are a number of issues that are blended into one question. They really should be separated. First issue, should we expand categories for senior shooters to add Cattle Barron and another category yet to be identified. Second, should we drop "official" categories for women shooters due to lack of population at shoots? Third, should we have corresponding categories for male and female regardless of population? I'm like Allie Mo in that I am canvasing my members to vote as they wish but as the question is stated currently I would vote no because I don't agree with adding the two additional categories of Cattle Barron and the yet to be announced category. I think Elder Statesman is enough and if / when I each that age I will just be glad that I am able to shoot and will be happy in that. I won't care if I have my own category just because I'm an old phart but that is just me. I don't mean any disrespect to our senior shooters. The Match Directors can add classes for what ever one they want but a good rule of thumb would be to have some number of shooters in that class before making it part of the shoot. All SASS is trying to do is clean up their "official" classes. I would bet that if there were 5 Grand Dames show up at EOT, SASS would put it in the program. The powers that be may seem a bit arbitrary but I do not perceive them as unwilling to listen to reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The Match Directors can add classes for what ever one they want but a good rule of thumb would be to have some number of shooters in that class before making it part of the shoot. All SASS is trying to do is clean up their "official" classes. I would bet that if there were 5 Grand Dames show up at EOT, SASS would put it in the program. The powers that be may seem a bit arbitrary but I do not perceive them as unwilling to listen to reason. Just a side comment!! I wonder what percentile of shooter registration makes it to the MD in the last month, last week, last day, last minute? Ya see, the MD doesn't know who all will be signed up for those less populated catagories and if he doesn't know (minimum of 3-5 to be offered??) then he can not get awards ordered and in place. As someone mentioned, if he can not shoot his catagory, he doesn't want to come and wants his money back, which would/could screw up the banquet catering arrangement. An age old problem but only getting worse with more catagories being offered or proposed. I feel for both sides of this debate. Blastmaster Edit,,, is the solution for the small to medium size shoot MD to not offer those catagories most likely to not have a minimum number? Those people would then be forced into another cataogry up front or they could pass on the match and the club would loose shooters and shooters would be unhappy. not pretty. Or just give out paper awards to all regardless of catagory size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch Doctor, SASS # 70062 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Not just no but HELL NO!! Stop tweaking and changing categories already. And if you are going to offer a men's category, there needs to be a women's side available. To not have one is ridiculous. Thank you Darlin' I don't know you, but I love you. As a woman, well into the silver senior category, this new idea is a kick in the fanny. Thanks for the support. I asked to shoot Lady Frontiersman at EOT this year and was told "no". I don't understand that. I thought SASS was all about learning new things and pushing ourselves to get out of the comfort zones and shoot new guns. I really wanted to learn to shoot cap and ball and even had a mentor lined up. I am trying not to kick up too much fuss, but I think this is the opposite of the direction we should be going. More women in the sport = more men in the sport. It isn't exactly rocket science. The only thing that makes any sense is that they are trying to say they didn't expand the number of categories by cutting down on the women's categories....I am especially upset that this appears to be the only way to get the popular idea of FC gunfighter included. Anyway, Thanks again Irish...you are a gentleman...Witch Doctor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond S Doug Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I don't recall ever meeting a Grand Dame. However, if one frequented our shoots, I'd sure have a category for her. There are 5 at Bordertown this week and 9 at Winter Range Last Year. We also have 2 that shoot out monthly matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 JUST FROM A SCORING STANDPOINT: DO NOT USE "CATTLE BARON" AS THE NAME OF A CATEGORY. When we (all of us scorers) are entering data, how the heck are we supposed to know whether a shooter signed up as "CB" is a Cowboy or a Cattle Baron? This is especially true at annuals when we have more shooters from other clubs ~ shooters that we scorers may not know, and do not get a chance to meet because we are tucked away in our trailer entering scores on the computer. Please, give a thought to abbreviations before deciding on a category name. Whether a name is "cool" or "acceptable" are only part of the factors to be given weight. Muchas gracias, eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backshootin beauford mcgee Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 no problem here-- but I do not see outlaw, pale rider or josie wales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just George SASS 68097 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Our club offers all SASS categories plus Frontier Cartdrige Gun Fighter, Cattle Baron, Cap and Ball Gun Fighter and Gun Slinger in our main match, with a lady category right along side the men. Almost all of our 26+ side matches also offer a ladies category. We only require one (1) shooter to have the category. You see, we want YOU to shoot with us! Just George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Our club offers all SASS categories plus Frontier Cartdrige Gun Fighter, Cattle Baron, Cap and Ball Gun Fighter and Gun Slinger in our main match, with a lady category right along side the men. Almost all of our 26+ side matches also offer a ladies category. We only require one (1) shooter to have the category. You see, we want YOU to shoot with us! Just George Excuse the hijack! I already knew I wanted to shoot with you without hearing that. Hope to do so in 2012! Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 JUST FROM A SCORING STANDPOINT: DO NOT USE "CATTLE BARON" AS THE NAME OF A CATEGORY. When we (all of us scorers) are entering data, how the heck are we supposed to know whether a shooter signed up as "CB" is a Cowboy or a Cattle Baron? This is especially true at annuals when we have more shooters from other clubs ~ shooters that we scorers may not know, and do not get a chance to meet because we are tucked away in our trailer entering scores on the computer. Please, give a thought to abbreviations before deciding on a category name. Whether a name is "cool" or "acceptable" are only part of the factors to be given weight. Muchas gracias, eGG EGG How about 3 letter abbreviations. We already have some of them. CB=Cowboy, CBR= Cattle Barron What's the problem??? RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 EGG How about 3 letter abbreviations. We already have some of them. CB=Cowboy, CBR= Cattle Barron What's the problem??? RBK How about an acronym, C and CB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 That's just fine, but you underestimate people's capacity for creative confusion! We still get people registering for Modern and Traditional categories, and between CB & CG (Cowboy & Cowgirl), CCB & CCG (classic), and people whose "L's" look like "C's", simply recording names and categories for even a monthly match can be a head-ache. I wish I had the posse lists from our last annual in front of me, so I could further elucidate.... I have a list of standard abbreviations for people to use at sign-up, and maybe 60% use them. Sometimes I feel like just lumping everyone whose writing I cannot decipher into the any-age any-gender Cowboy. I really don't think we need another category with C or CB or CBR. There is no need to make life more difficult. Now I am sounding as if I don't LIKE doing scores. Not true! I enjoy getting the results out promptly the night of or by 0600 the morning after a match. If no other scorekeeper has this problem, then I'll just have to deal with it (if it passes). Buena suerte, amigos eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch Doctor, SASS # 70062 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Winter Range will never offer FCGF unless it is a SASS catagory. So if we want that then it needs to be official. but I am not going to vote for something that will also take away all my catagories ie LFC, LFCD & LFCGF. Taking away the Ladies catagories is not right. Let us have our catagories and add FCGF. I do think the ES is getting so big that would be great to have another division there but 2? maybe not I think that 1 would be good. I think that the Grand Dame's should have theirs. I think if we start taking away ladies catagories they are going to go too! We do not want that I do not want that. I have advised my TG of my thoughts. Painted Filly Hi Painted Filly, Thank you for the information. I am afraid the same will be true for EOT. I am already a silver senior and several of us are bearing down on Grand Dame. Believe it or not we are still competitive people and like to win. This stinks!... As you say, this is not the only category they are trying to get rid of. If I read the information right there will be 20 men's categories and 12 women's categories. The idea seems to be don't expand the number of categories. If they cut down women's categories then they can expand men's categories and the count stays the same - did we move to DC or something? That sounds like congressional thinking. I already feel like the FCGF category is the popular "rider" that was put into a bad Senate bill just to get it passed. When I asked to shoot Lady Frontiersman at EOT I was told "no, the category is under populated"... Well since it has never been offered, I suppose it is under populated. I run the Georgia State Match and we will have women's categories for every man's category. But now I will have to buy even more plaques to cover the expansion - you know - the one that really isn't an expansion - yet somehow we went from 16 to 20 categories for men. I have a Ph.D. in developmental psychology. The aging process accelerates dramatically somewhere between 60 and 70 (different for each individual), so the idea of breaking down Elder Statesman into more categories makes sense. I am not at all opposed to that. In fact, it is a good idea and I don't mind buyin another plaque or two. However, it is also true that during this same period of life, women are losing muscle mass much more quickly than men are, so this is exactly the wrong time to force them into competing against men. We should be able to hold our own up until about our early to mid 50s and then we start to need some protection.... Just almost backwards of the idea at hand. I can't understand the motive behind treating the women of SASS this way. On the good side, I have a lot of friends who really want FCGF and they are likely to finally get it. How much does a SASS life badge go for on EBAY anyway? Witch Doctor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 ...I can't understand the motive behind treating the women of SASS this way. On the good side, I have a lot of friends who really want FCGF and they are likely to finally get it. How much does a SASS life badge go for on EBAY anyway? Witch Doctor Howdy Witch Doctor, Me either and I don't like it. Just so you know, I won't be in one of the dropped ladies' age-based categories for about 7 1/2 years. The folks who determine what the agenda items will be are all men! Possibly that had something to do with how this happened. My crystal ball says "treating the ladies of SASS like this is a deal breaker for the majority and no way will a 2/3 majority of the TGs vote for it. About FCGF, I don't think they want their category at the expense of the ladies. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Vous Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Women do lack the upper body strength men have. While I am pretty tough for a girl, I am not that tough. I can hold up a lot shorter time under weight, and I pay for it the next day. I believe in making SASS available to anyone who wants to shoot. So lets all consider age, gender, and what will get man and women out there shooting. This weekend I heard SASS is a bit concerned about losing shooters because many are aging. Well, then open up classes for those people with smaller caliber weapons then. I also heard they might be interested in Steam punk people, and that is fine to me to as a seperate catagory. We all grew up on cowboys, the younger generations did not. In the west while the cowboy is alive and well, the urban cowboy is alive in well in NYC. Our club needs to retain what it has, and grow. Built it and they will come, don't tear it apart and think they might stay. As I age I know I will never be without a gun or the love of the west and cowboys in my heart. I will never stop wanting to feel the power of a gun, or the challenge in hitting a target, and the smoke and laughter. I guess the question is physically can we keep it up? Sure we can if we adjust a bit. Don't subtract, add classes to draw in more people. Back some movie projects or TV ones to bring back the old west. Make it fun, and people will shoot. As a kid my father made hunting for gophers seem like the best fun in the whole world. It saved his crops, and made all of us learn to shoot. Not once did he say , yeah okay but no BB guns.. lol.. He didn't care just pick up a weapon even a darn club and join in.. make more not less.. jmho But then I am just a girl.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olen Rugged Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Provisionally...NO. I don't know how this one works with the other catagory possibilities (cherry picking, age group segeration) I will post the same reply: Without some sort of skill based classification (it won't happen,ever) catagory segeration will always be contencious. This ain't t-ball, you might not win a trinket. If it is cherry pickin' you want to fix do that at registration Apparently everyone "knows" what is going on. Stop it. If it is age groups that you want to fix just don't give catagory awards to folks that move out (in either direction) of "their" age group. The best fix I can see is an option to "shoot for age". pick one, don't expect a trinket if you move out of "your" group. Everybody that does not "shoot for age" goes into Open Olen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 One thing that concerns me the only reason FCGF keeps coming back every year is that it fails the 2/3rds majority required to pass but consistently passes the simple majority. Being lumped in with this very unpopular proposal which will certainly fail, probably by a large margin, will that mean FCGF can not be brought up next year on it's own. This could cause many shooters to feel disenfranchised. Smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Denny, SASS #64775L Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 The South River Shootists, the club I represent as TG, currently allows a total of 47 category choices. We are in Georgia, and in the South "Outlaw" and "Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter", which I personnaly believe should have been one of the first official SASS categories, are popular categories. The only corresponding "Ladies" category we don't offer is Ladies Frontiersman. However, if a lady wanted to shoot that category we would allow it. My personal belief is that eliminating Grand Dame and not including ladies categories for the categories added to the proposed list of Official Categories is a serious mistake that could result in an overwhelming "No" vote from a majority of clubs. Match Directors should have learned by now that when they limit categories they also limit the attendence potential for their match. Remember the old saying "If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ...Remember the old saying "If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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