Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Improper coaching by TO for safety issues Example say shooter cocks pistol at wrong location TO's telling shooter to move,shooter moves stage DQ,is that improper coaching that deserves reshoot ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Nope. In the end, it is the shooter's responsibility not to commit an unsafe act. I felt real bad as TO when I told a pard to move, and due to stage set-up, I was out of position and unable to see he'd already cocked his pistol. My trying to save him a "P" cost him a SDQ in a State shoot, and this has been post-mortemed all the way to PWB. The proper response from the shooter is to yell "can't move, cocked gun" or "cocked gun" and just shoot it from where he is or dump a round into the berm before moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Reinz, SASS #41707 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 What AJ said. I've been on both ends. It's a tought deal for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlee Headlee SASS 54317 L Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 This is one of the reasons that it is so important that the TO knows the rules very thoroughly. Never tell a shooter to do anything that will not help or assist them through the stage. -Deadlee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 What AJ said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Slick, SASS #64415 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 My TO told me to do an unsafe act,I refused and told him why. He thanked me for being aware of the situation. We all make mistakes but it comes at a high cost. Know the rules and gun safety. MS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Hi AO, I think PWB weighed in on this. IIRC, regarding safety issues, the shooter is responsible. No reshoot. I don't like it; but that is what I remember. However, at the TG Summit this year, we were told the MD (not the TO or PM) could overrule this. If I cocked a gun and the TO was yelling move to another position, it's likely I'd move with a cocked gun. Sigh! Regards, Allie "who can now blame it on a Senior moment" Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Improper coaching by TO for safety issues Example say shooter cocks pistol at wrong location TO's telling shooter to move,shooter moves stage DQ,is that improper coaching that deserves reshoot ? You have a question if a expense is tax deductible, so you call the local IRS office. They tell you yes it is. Following their expert advise to claim it. All is good. Later you get audited for claiming the deduction. Who pays the penalty? You do. Shooter follows the advice a TO gives, which later turns out to be bad advice. Who pays the penalty? The Shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 I was discussing this with a Match Director and I believe they decided to give shooter a reshoot for this situation,so I guess it was MD's call. So say TO catches situation tells shooter to dump rd into berm but there are pistol targets available which would of kept shooter from getting miss ? AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I was discussing this with a Match Director and I believe they decided to give shooter a reshoot for this situation,so I guess it was MD's call. So say TO catches situation tells shooter to dump rd into berm but there are pistol targets available which would of kept shooter from getting miss ? AO Hi AO, Hmmm...a really good TO would have just let him/her shoot all the pistol targets at that time. That way it would only be a P, not a P and a miss. No lost time that way either. Regards, AM PS Gosh it's hard for a TO to be perfect in the "heat of the battle." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I was discussing this with a Match Director and I believe they decided to give shooter a reshoot for this situation,so I guess it was MD's call. So say TO catches situation tells shooter to dump rd into berm but there are pistol targets available which would of kept shooter from getting miss ? AO If the shooter draws and cocks... shooter problem If the RO/TO tells them to draw and cock... RO problem The time to coach is new shooters, slower shooters, and as the shooter is reaching for their gun in the wrong location. Why should the RO suddenly show up when the gun is cocked? If the RO wasn't coaching when the shooter reached for the gun in the wrong spot why coach at all? The example you gave was shooter problem and the RO shoulda let'em P! The second example was an RO problem re-shoot with penalty carried forward I've found that the top 50 shooters at EOT are best left to shoot their stages... absolutely no coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 So say TO catches situation tells shooter to dump rd into berm but there are pistol targets available which would of kept shooter from getting miss ?AO If the shooter draws and cocks... shooter problem If the RO/TO tells them to draw and cock... RO problem The time to coach is new shooters, slower shooters, and as the shooter is reaching for their gun in the wrong location. Why should the RO suddenly show up when the gun is cocked? If the RO wasn't coaching when the shooter reached for the gun in the wrong spot why coach at all? The example you gave was shooter problem and the RO shoulda let'em P! The second example was an RO problem re-shoot with penalty carried forward I've found that the top 50 shooters at EOT are best left to shoot their stages... absolutely no coaching I gotta agree with Allie, if there are available pistol targets the TO should allow or advise the shooter to shoot that round at an available pistol target, avoiding the miss, but yes... gainin' a "P". Better'n a P & a miss. In this case the P CAN cause a miss, not the other way 'round. That would be proper coachin' and not grounds for a reshoot... Cinch, IMO, this would be another example of improper coaching and from the ROI Manual, 2011, version L, pg 23: For example, if the Range Officer stops a shooter from completing a shooting sequence because of a suspected squib load, and the gun turns out to be "clear," the Range Officer has impeded the progress of the shooter, and a restart is in order. In this case, the shooter starts over with no misses or penalties (except safeties). It would require the shooter to protest the call, unless the TO steps up and admits his error... And, just cause the shooter is slow, don't necessarily mean he needs coachin'. While I shoot slow, purposefully like, and will very likely engage the TO in conversation, unless I ASK, don't prompt... I might be simply thinking of the next joke I wanna share with the TO! Ain't necessarily flustered over the stage... tho' that happens also! Then again, if I look at ya with that "deer in the headlights look", ya might wanna provide a subtle hint... or maybe not so subtle! And a little communication is good for both. I normally like to time from a Shooter's right shoulder (right handed ones that is, left side for those southpaws...) Very seldom is it a problem even when the stage movement is to the right, for me to step back and allow the shooter a clear lane; yet yesterday, one shooter simply asked if I'd stand to his left... no problemo... And, some shooters will draw that second gun, move with it in hand and be ready to cock as they plant that foot in the new location... simply drawing before moving is not an issue, nor should the TO interfere... Yes, anticipate the shooter's actions... but to stop them before they make that error, then it's still the TOs interference. And, yep, them top shooters, maybe even as deep or deeper than the top 100 shooters don't really need coachin' at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I gotta agree with Allie, if there are available pistol targets the TO should allow or advise the shooter to shoot that round at an available pistol target, avoiding the miss, but yes... gainin' a "P". Better'n a P & a miss. In this case the P CAN cause a miss, not the other way 'round. That would be proper coachin' and not grounds for a reshoot... Cinch, IMO, this would be another example of improper coaching and from the ROI Manual, 2011, version L, pg 23: It would require the shooter to protest the call, unless the TO steps up and admits his error... And, just cause the shooter is slow, don't necessarily mean he needs coachin'. And, yep, them top shooters, maybe even as deep or deeper than the top 100 shooters don't really need coachin' at all. Griff, Some things are obvious Others well... I liked the way I said it better!! Your example wasn't the example we were talking about Other than that... you were spot on!!! Happy Shooting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Hi AO, I think PWB weighed in on this. IIRC, regarding safety issues, the shooter is responsible. No reshoot. I don't like it; but that is what I remember. However, at the TG Summit this year, we were told the MD (not the TO or PM) could overrule this. If I cocked a gun and the TO was yelling move to another position, it's likely I'd move with a cocked gun. Sigh! Regards, Allie "who can now blame it on a Senior moment" Mo Allie, it is true the MD can ovveride the call IF IT WAS A BAD CALL, but unfortunately, trying to save somebody a "P" does not give them a pass to commit a safety without penalty. Every TO should encourage the shooter to run it by the MD, but every MD should uphold the rules as they exist, and not cave to pressure to make a shooter happy..... Move with a cocked gun, you own it, no matter that cuncurrently the TO is trying to help by telling you to move, etc. What I learned that day is unless I can see that the gun is NOT cocked, I'm better off to keep shut and let the shooter earn the P, than I am to tell em to move and potentially make matters worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Griff,Some things are obvious Others well... I liked the way I said it better!! Your example wasn't the example we were talking about Other than that... you were spot on!!! Happy Shooting!! Then I didn't understand which example you were referring to in the "carry penalties forward" comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Improper coaching by TO for safety issues Example say shooter cocks pistol at wrong location TO's telling shooter to move,shooter moves stage DQ,is that improper coaching that deserves reshoot ? If you can't stop them before, best to just let them shoot because once you yell move, if the shooter is already DOING, he's gonna do just what you told him to do most likely and that will mean he's gonna move with a cocked gun and you just cost HIM a DQ. (speaking from personal experience, you can't kick yourself enough to make up for it, either) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Allie, it is true the MD can ovveride the call IF IT WAS A BAD CALL, but unfortunately, trying to save somebody a "P" does not give them a pass to commit a safety without penalty. Every TO should encourage the shooter to run it by the MD, but every MD should uphold the rules as they exist, and not cave to pressure to make a shooter happy..... Move with a cocked gun, you own it, no matter that cuncurrently the TO is trying to help by telling you to move, etc. What I learned that day is unless I can see that the gun is NOT cocked, I'm better off to keep shut and let the shooter earn the P, than I am to tell em to move and potentially make matters worse. Hi Jack, I know what you are saying and the subject was pretty wishy-washy at the Summit. However, my notes say the following. "Match Director (MD) Authority • The MD has discretionary powers and can overrule a call from the posse. • For example, if the TO improperly tells the shooter to move, which causes a safety infraction, the MD and only the MD, may determine that the shooter may have a reshoot without carrying over the safety penalty. " I agree it is better to let them earn a P than possibly a MSV, SDQ or MDQ as no coaching is not grounds for a reshoot. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Just a little short story on this subject. Big match (won't say were), incident happened on separate days of a 2 day shoot, 2 different shooters, yet on same posse. Shooter with shotgun closed and cocked in wrong position, RO yells for him to "MOVE", shooter moves and gets a DQ. On another stage different shooter, different RO, shooter mistakenly forgets to move to 2nd position for second pistol, pulls and cocks second pistol in wrong window, RO yells "MOVE", shooter moves, gets a DQ. Before posse moves off, RO tells shooter he will give him a re-shoot. Now neither shooter requested a re-shoot, nor said there was RO interference, just RO decided he interfered with shooter. What is a problem is that if re-shoots are given, they need to be consistent, especially in same match. Otherwise you have "rogue" RO's who will make subject calls that may not be constant with the other ROw in the match, nor to all the shooters. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 The example I cited during the Summit discussions was the "T/O-assisted TRIFECTA" - P + MISS + MSV. (actually saw this happen TWICE in the same match...same shooter...once on his own; once with the 'help' of the T/O) E.g. - Shooter has a 'jam' in the middle of the rifle shooting string. Gets jam cleared & asks "Where was I?" NO ONE (shooter, T/O or spotters) recalls at which point the jam occurred or how many rounds had been fired up to that point. T/O directs the shooter to the WRONG TARGET (off by one) Shooter stops shooting on the correct target for the string; but skipped the one in the middle due to the IMproper coaching = P Shooter has an unfired round remaining in the rifle = MISS Shooter restages rifle with the unfired round on the carrier = MSV. Shooter gets a RESHOOT for the IMproper coaching...but MSV's carry over on reshoots. The question was whether the T/O had the authority to take responsibility and negate the MSV. The RO Committee clarification was that match officials (Match Director or Range Master) are the ONLY persons who can dismiss the MSV IF the shooter appeals the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Would this scenario (Shooter appeals call to MD) also apply to a SDQ caused by improper coaching? The example I cited during the Summit discussions was the "T/O-assisted TRIFECTA" - P + MISS + MSV. (actually saw this happen TWICE in the same match...same shooter...once on his own; once with the 'help' of the T/O) E.g. - Shooter has a 'jam' in the middle of the rifle shooting string. Gets jam cleared & asks "Where was I?" NO ONE (shooter, T/O or spotters) recalls at which point the jam occurred or how many rounds had been fired up to that point. T/O directs the shooter to the WRONG TARGET (off by one) Shooter stops shooting on the correct target for the string; but skipped the one in the middle due to the IMproper coaching = P Shooter has an unfired round remaining in the rifle = MISS Shooter restages rifle with the unfired round on the carrier = MSV. Shooter gets a RESHOOT for the IMproper coaching...but MSV's carry over on reshoots. The question was whether the T/O had the authority to take responsibility and negate the MSV. The RO Committee clarification was that a match official (Match Director or Range Master) are the ONLY persons who can dismiss the MSV IF the shooter appeals the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Hi Jack, I know what you are saying and the subject was pretty wishy-washy at the Summit. However, my notes say the following. "Match Director (MD) Authority The MD has discretionary powers and can overrule a call from the posse. For example, if the TO improperly tells the shooter to move, which causes a safety infraction, the MD and only the MD, may determine that the shooter may have a reshoot without carrying over the safety penalty. " I agree it is better to let them earn a P than possibly a MSV, SDQ or MDQ as no coaching is not grounds for a reshoot. Regards, Allie Mo Allie, if the MD cannot remove a AFETY call when allowing a reshoot, (say ya have a P and a MSV, yer MSV carries over), how in the world can a SDQ be wiped clean? It seems all the MD can do is verify the facts of the situation fit the call (shooter moved with cocked gun) and the unfortunate fact after that is ascertained is, shooter owns a safety (including a SDQ, which negates a potential reshoot). I don't care if the RO suddenly has a brain anyurism and tells a shooter (insanely) "shoot one over the berm", if yer range rules say a round over the berm is a MDQ, yer damned if ya do it. SOMEWHERE we have to attach a brain to the shooter holding the gun...... SAFETY violations are the threshold for that enforcement, and always, no exceptions, ought to be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Would this scenario (Shooter appeals call to MD) also apply to a SDQ caused by improper coaching? The problem with applying that to the OP was answered by AJ in the very first response (post #2). Telling the shooter to "MOVE!" to the correct location IS considered 'Proper coaching' (i.e. an attempt to assist the shooter in avoiding a "P" for shooting from the wrong location) Whether that coaching is done in a "timely" manner (i.e. before vs as or after the revolver is cocked) or not, it is the SHOOTER's responsibility to KNOW the "safe conditions for movement" with a COCKED/LOADED firearm. That is an entirely different situation than that of misdirecting the shooter to the WRONG target/firearm/location during a stage. FWIW - (here's a bit of "SASS rules history & development") The rules USED TO allow movement with a cocked/loaded firearm IF the stage instructions specified it. (e.g. for a "shotgun advance" stage or engagement from multiple firing positions with revolver or rifle). That was written into the original ROI. When the "basketball traveling rule" was incorporated into the ROII, that allowance was pointed out, & it was subsequently deleted from the ROI. THEN the "traveling rule" was added to the "Stage Conventions" ... the 'preamble' of which states: "...unless otherwise directed in stage descriptions." When it was observed that stage directions could, once more, override it, the "no movement with a cocked/loaded firearm" reference was removed from the list of Conventions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Shooter runs to rifle grabs rifle levers a round the TO yells STOP! Shooter obeys and stops. Shooter did not know why the call was made, just followed directions. The TO realized th shooter didnt stage his pistols on the table. So Shooter burns the round under the hammer, hands off rifle, proceeds to the unloading table at the direction of the TO for a re-shoot. I see it as it should have been let go and the shooter given a P. But the shooter followed the directions and stoped. What now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Shooter runs to rifle grabs rifle levers a round the TO yells STOP! Shooter obeys and stops. Shooter did not know why the call was made, just followed directions. The TO realized th shooter didnt stage his pistols on the table. So Shooter burns the round under the hammer, hands off rifle, proceeds to the unloading table at the direction of the TO for a re-shoot. I see it as it should have been let go and the shooter given a P. But the shooter followed the directions and stopped. What now? IF T/O stopped the shooter before the first round went downrange it would have been legitimate grounds for a restart. IF he IMPEDED the progress of the shooter (after the pistols had been fired & the shooter already had the "P"), it is grounds for a reshoot. (see ROI p.22) Sounds like the cocked rifle was handled in a safe manner. (ROI p.16) Shooter proceeded to ULT to unload, regroup and start over at the loading table. If the shooter was running to the rifle from the pistol position, the T/O's WAY too late "assist" cancelled out the "P" by forcing a reshoot situation. FWIW - Not knowing the shooters involved & not questioning motive...this is a classic example of how the "buddy system" works. IMHO (edited when I reread it & realized that the pistols had already been shot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Shooter runs to rifle grabs rifle levers a round the TO yells STOP! Shooter obeys and stops. Shooter did not know why the call was made, just followed directions. The TO realized th shooter didnt stage his pistols on the table. So Shooter burns the round under the hammer, hands off rifle, proceeds to the unloading table at the direction of the TO for a re-shoot. I see it as it should have been let go and the shooter given a P. But the shooter followed the directions and stoped. What now? BTW - The "P" could have been avoided by directing the shooter to stage his pistols on the table before shooting them. 35. Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s) or location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time. SHB p.21 & 25 / ROI p.21 / ROII p.6 ("unassisted" means that no one does it FOR the shooter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Ah-HA! I was pretty sure I knew the answer but I wanted to make sure PW. The problem with applying that to the OP was answered by AJ in the very first response (post #2). Telling the shooter to "MOVE!" to the correct location IS considered 'Proper coaching' (i.e. an attempt to assist the shooter in avoiding a "P" for shooting from the wrong location) Whether that coaching is done in a "timely" manner (i.e. before vs as or after the revolver is cocked) or not, it is the SHOOTER's responsibility to KNOW the "safe conditions for movement" with a COCKED/LOADED firearm. That is an entirely different situation than that of misdirecting the shooter to the WRONG target/firearm/location during a stage. FWIW - (here's a bit of "SASS rules history & development") The rules USED TO allow movement with a cocked/loaded firearm IF the stage instructions specified it. (e.g. for a "shotgun advance" stage or engagement from multiple firing positions with revolver or rifle). That was written into the original ROI. When the "basketball traveling rule" was incorporated into the ROII, that allowance was pointed out, & it was subsequently deleted from the ROI. THEN the "traveling rule" was added to the "Stage Conventions" ... the 'preamble' of which states: "...unless otherwise directed in stage descriptions." When it was observed that stage directions could, once more, override it, the "no movement with a cocked/loaded firearm" reference was removed from the list of Conventions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I don't see any reason that anytime the TO yells to you, just stop. Progress impeded, no penalties, reshoot. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEAD BANE, SASS 70197 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 How about TO says nothing during the course of fire unless to stop an unsafe act. If the shooter is about to earn a P then let them, they should have read and understood the scenario. If its a Senior Moment, well thats all part of the aging process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlee Headlee SASS 54317 L Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Running the timer is really a very challenging thing to do perfectly. When a shooter puts a rifle down and the lever closes, but they are hard of hearing and also move fast you may not be able to stop them to correct it until they are to far away for the correction to save them any time. It may take more than the 10 seconds to go back and fix it from where you were able to stop them. The same thing applies here to Outlaw's original question. If the shooter has already cocked the firearm in the wrong place is it sometimes better to say nothing? Even if they can safely fix it under the rules should you tell them? Yes. It depends on the shooter and the situation encountered as to weather you will actually help them by trying to stop the "P" or just keeping quiet. Knowing the difference between shooters and when not to try to help is the measure of a great TO in my opinion. Typically they will always help when it's an easy decision but not saying anything when you shouldn't can be a very difficult skill to master. by the way I spent almost 30 minutes on when to help and when not to in my last RO classes and everyone thought that it was a big help. -Deadlee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Hmmm...a really good TO would have... ...quit CAS and become a NBA official. Same amout of grief with a whole lot better pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 ...quit CAS and become a NBA official. Same amout of grief with a whole lot better pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crosscut Hardy SASS # 54701 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Monthly shoots is more relaxed where Annual Shoots is better done I think, like Lead Bane said. "TO says nothing during course of fire unless to stop unsafe act." All TO's should be at least RO1 whenever possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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