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Sage Creek Gus  SASS #64320

Question for you Holy Black People

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I'm going to start shooting the Holy Black in some matches this year and am working up loads.

 

I'm wondering if some of you are using duplex loads and if you feel the results are worth the extra effort.

 

Sage Creek Gus

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Not permitted for SASS shooting as far as I know even in the BLACK.

 

There are Long Range shooters that use duplex loads. Infor available over on the "Billy Dixon Long Range Shooting Society".

 

ie. "Long Range" refers to LONG rang . . not Cowboy "long" range.

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That is heavily frowned upon now days. I am not much into the gun magazines now days but I thought that those in knowledge had declared duplex loads to be unsafe period. If you are seeking more power you might want to try 777 as it is supposedly made for bp hunters and is hotter. If you seek less smoke then you need to check the rules as there is an arbitrary minimum standard for bp categories now. I have been pleased with APP black powder sub in my cartridge guns and use only real black powder for shotgun, cap and ball or long range rifle calibers.

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Nope, not permitted. Use real BP, 1/16''- 1/8'' compression, Big Lube bullet, set it and ferget it. :D

 

Jefro :ph34r:

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The only duplex load I use is half a case of ffg topped by a half case of ffg. Works every time.

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Howdy

 

From the Shooter's Handbook:

 

"Throughout this manual, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder substitute such

as Pyrodex, 777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for muzzle loading firearms.

Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes. Any

combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically

prohibited."

 

And while you're at it, please refrain from calling it 'Holy Black'. It is just another type of propellant, there is nothing secular or holy about it. Part of a new campaign I'm starting. Thanks for listening.

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I've been using duplex loads for years in my long range black powder loads to reduce fowling. I'm surprised to hear it is now considered dangerous, I have never seen any information on that. Almost all the top long range black powder shooters I know use duplex loads and it has been used for many years. I'd like to be directed to any information that indicates the practice is dangerous.

 

I didn't realize it was banned by SASS so I won't use it in my cowboy loads.

 

Sage Creek Gus

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I've been using duplex loads for years in my long range black powder loads to reduce fowling. I'm surprised to hear it is now considered dangerous, I have never seen any information on that. Almost all the top long range black powder shooters I know use duplex loads and it has been used for many years. I'd like to be directed to any information that indicates the practice is dangerous.

I didn't realize it was banned by SASS so I won't use it in my cowboy loads.

Sage Creek Gus

If you don't don't know what you're doin', it's simply DANGEROUS. It was ruled very early on that the resulting "lack of fouling" was considered outside the "cowboy way"... They didn't do it in the 1880's. For the uninitiated, simply hearing that others were using duplex loads without firm guidelines and specific data, it could easily be dangerous. The BP category only allowed cap and ball revolvers until 1989, and frankly, in those, duplex loads have long been known to be dangerous. And as for information about it being dangerous... read almost any reloading manual that discusses BP loads.

From "SPG Lubricant BP Cartridge Reloading Primer"

...one might ask about the practice of duplex loading. As a rule we do not recommend duplexing even though it has been approved by recognized reloading manuals in the past. Duplexing--using a small charge of smokeless powder under the main charge of black, is a practice we consider to be potentially dangerous. If used in excessive amounts smokeless powder alters the burning characteristics of black powder and excessive pressures can result. This has been proven in laboratory pressure barrel experiments. Additionally, GOEX has included a warning on the back of their can saying not to mix black powder with any other type of powder.

The primary reason for duplexing is to achieve cleaner burning with black powder. By using proper handloading techniques and SPG bullet lube, duplexing has been proven unneccessary. We are also convinced that loads using straight black powder are consistently more accurate at long range. The reasons will be detailed further along. And finally, we feel that the practice of duplex loading is a contradiction in logic. The purpose of shooting these 19th century guns is to experience things the way our forefathers did, and they certainly did not have any smokeless powders to use as a crutch.

I started muzzleloading back in the mid '70s, and shooting black in cartridges in the late '70s... and heard about the dangers of duplexing from almost day one. I also heard that some folks did it. I've personally seen the results of a couple of folk's experiments with it... and their destroyed guns. Obviously it's a proven technique, look at the old Schuetzen shooters that did it for years... yet, unless one has expert guidance and known, proven load data, experimenting with it IS dangerous. IMO, any other attitude is simply my current definition of "common sense"... SHEER STUPIDITY.

 

Let me put another way... when I learn that someone is using duplex loads... I move my shooting station as far away as possible... or leave the range... I don't want to be present when they blow up their gun, injure themselves or worse yet...injure someone else.

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I've been using duplex loads for years in my long range black powder loads to reduce fowling. I'm surprised to hear it is now considered dangerous, I have never seen any information on that. Almost all the top long range black powder shooters I know use duplex loads and it has been used for many years. I'd like to be directed to any information that indicates the practice is dangerous.

 

Here's the word right from the Goex powder web site:

 

Goex Handling Precautions

 

 

Handle with care. Avoid impact, friction, heat, sparks and open flame. Prevent contact with smoking material. Keep containers tightly closed when not in use. Clean up any spilled powder. Use brush and dustpan. Keep away from children.

 

Wash hands thoroughly after handling.

 

Do not mix this powder with a powder of any other type.

 

Do not purchase or accept any GOEX black powder not in its original container, factory sealed..

 

Do not dispense black powder directly from the canister into firearm. Do not dispense a substantial amount of powder in close proximity to the firearm.

 

The bolded sentence is my highlighting of the important warning here.

(It's hard to believe that you haven't seen this warning yet - if I remember right, it's on every can Goex/Hodgdon sells.)

 

Good luck, GJ

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Howdy

 

From the Shooter's Handbook:

 

"Throughout this manual, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder substitute such

as Pyrodex, 777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for muzzle loading firearms.

Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes. Any

combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically

prohibited."

 

And while you're at it, please refrain from calling it 'Holy Black'. It is just another type of propellant, there is nothing secular or holy about it. Part of a new campaign I'm starting. Thanks for listening.

 

Oh Boy!

I'm gonna rat you out to Lou Graham! Your dead meat now! ;)

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Driftwood, . . . Black Powder is "HOLY" . . .

 

 

 

 

. . . . it is a gift from the Gods for us to ustilise in our persute of God's purpose for us, . . which is to spend a large part of our time on earth propelling hunks of lead down range. :D

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And while you're at it, please refrain from calling it 'Holy Black'. It is just another type of propellant, there is nothing secular or holy about it. Part of a new campaign I'm starting. Thanks for listening.

 

But there IS a grail, is there not? The 1,000yd shot? The one hole group? The "no misfires in the rain"?

 

CR

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Driftwood, . . . Black Powder is "HOLY" . . .

 

 

 

 

. . . . it is a gift from the Gods for us to ustilise in our persute of God's purpose for us, . . which is to spend a large part of our time on earth propelling hunks of lead down range. :D

 

Aaaaaaaaamen brother :lol:

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Howdy

Duplex loads are also illegal in BPCR matches. Range officers pull loaded rounds

at random off the line and break them down. If you are not using straight black or

pyrodex you are done for the day. Those guns are plenty accurate at 500 meters to

shoot a clean score. Why tempt fate, that is the challenge of using blackpowder.

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When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was going to be about race and religion. Glad we're still talking guns and powder. ;)

 

From what I've read on the topic, a duplex load supposedly burns cleaner and gives higher velocity. It also can create dangerous pressure spikes, and there are reports of burst guns and injuries as a result. Not good.

 

If you want to get a better burn of the powder charge, why not just try using magnum primers?

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