Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 In addition to erratic ignition, there's also the chance of that phenomenom known as "detonation". As I recall, we had a pretty lively discussion about that last year. Basically, the theory is that pixie dust loads can settle and form a powder trail or collect at the bullet base, and when hit by the primer flash can go off with no small degree of violence instead of burning in a predictable fashion. The result can be a burst gun. Using some kind of filler over the miniscule charge probably isn't a good solution. The topic of reduced charges came up last year in big-bore calibers, and the judgement of those Wire pards who are quite experienced with them was that certain fillers can result in ringed chambers. Again, an undesireable state of affairs. I know a local commercial reloader who once told me he prefers to use the bulkiest powder he can. His view is that bulkier powders give better case fill, which all but eliminates the chances of a detonation or a squib. His ammo always fires, and none of his customers have ever complained. I think his view has merit. Detonation of a small charge of ball powder such as H110 has been suspected but never demonstrated in the lab. Detonation of faster powders is IMHO a myth used to to rationalize away responsibility for a blown gun when the real culprit is a reloading error such as a double charge or double bullet in a case. That said adequate pressure to give a good burn at low levels is a real issue (and fillers are a bad idea), and none is worse than the big ole of .45 Colt and smokeless (it was never designed for smokeless). Note a very successful smokeless cartridge of the .45 flavor has been in use in bullseye competition for a very long time. Bullseye is a demanding game requiring low recoil levels and extreme accuracy, and what does real well is the .45 ACP. The good news is some fool went and adapted the ACP case length and volume to our .45 Colt case, for our .45 colt guns, creating a cartridge that cures the low pressure ills at low velocities, allows for the use of slow, light recoiling loads, even with bullets as light as 125 grains. I'd tell ya the "secret", but then I'd have to kill ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Detonation of a small charge of ball powder such as H110 has been suspected but never demonstrated in the lab. Detonation of faster powders is IMHO a <SNIP> The good news is some fool went and adapted the ACP case length and volume to our .45 Colt case, for our .45 colt guns, creating a cartridge that cures the low pressure ills at low velocities, allows for the use of slow, light recoiling loads, even with bullets as light as 125 grains. I'd tell ya the "secret", but then I'd have to kill ya Well - truth be told, not only did some enterprising chap do that but, they came out right pretty too - sorta like a bullet - only smaller! I found a bunch of them right here: Cute little bullets! Food for thought if you want to try them - and they're great for BP loads in conversion guns too! Shadow Catcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I am too much of a skinflint to practice with the real black powder but I have thought of using Schuetzen reenactor (designed for blanks in muskets and the like) What is practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 In addition to erratic ignition, there's also the chance of that phenomenom known as "detonation". As I recall, we had a pretty lively discussion about that last year. Basically, the theory is that pixie dust loads can settle and form a powder trail or collect at the bullet base, and when hit by the primer flash can go off with no small degree of violence instead of burning in a predictable fashion. The result can be a burst gun. Howdy Again I have heard a different explanation for this phenomenon and I tend to believe it is possible under the right circumstances. Most Smokeless powders need to achieve a pressure of about 5000 psi before they begin to burn properly. Under 5000 psi they tend to burn in fits and starts. It is a well known fact that a primer alone has enough power to drive a bullet out of a case and lodge it in the forcing cone. If a powder charge is small enough, the expanding gasses created by the primer alone may have enough force to drive the bullet out of the case and wedge it in the barrel before the powder achieves a good burn. At this point the wedged bullet becomes a barrel obstruction. In theory, the powder may have ignited but it was not burning efficiently yet and was not generating much pressure. But as soon as the bullet got stuck, the combustion chamber behind it became finite and the fizzling powder could then begin burning efficiently, quickly achieving the necessary 5000 psi. Once that had happened, it only took a microsecond more for the pressure to build up behind the stuck bullet enough to burst the cylinder. Admittedly it is an extremely rare occurrence, but I do give the theory some credence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 This discussion comes up almost monthly either on the SASS WIRE or over on the LEVERGUNS.COM forum . Usually it is not so much about what powder but about the 45lc rifles and the severe blowback with the down loaded CAS ammo. The reason the problem is more common with the 45lc rifle is because the makers all use the maximum SAMMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition. Manufacturers’ Institute) specs when they ream the chambers for the gun. They do this so the gun will more likely cycle with a broad spectrum of ammo's. This is why semi-auto pistol with match grade guns are finicky about the ammo they will run. The match grade chambers are tight. I do warranty work for EMF. They imported the Rossi M92 as well. Over the years the EMF folks have had me do chamber cast on various 45lc rifles because the customer insisted the chambers were bad. One feller bought an EMF 92 and before he ever shot it sent it to Doug Turnbull for color-case work. Once he shot it with his CAS loads he found that the cases would not swell enough to seal the chamber. They would swell on just one side of the case. This to him indicated a bulged chamber. He sent the rifle to me along with some of his bulged fired brass to verify this. I did a chamber cast and found the chamber to be within SAMMI spec. and the cases were truly bulged but not beyond SAMMI. Think about this. If the chamber was bulged and the brass was bulged to match extraction would be difficult. Not the case here. The fired bulged brass would easily chamber and fall right out if the open rifle was held vertical. The brass was bulged because that was the softest or the thinnest area of the case, not because the chamber was bad. He insisted, they gave him his money back and I bought a Doug Turnbull CC-ed rifle on the cheap from them. More recently, they had a feller send me a 92 and a 73 for the same reason. He insisted the chambers were too big on both. I cast both guns and both guns were within SAMMI. He still insist that they are bad, that SAMMI spec are not correct and the industry should do something about it. This diagram shows both cartridge and chamber dimensions. Please note that unless noted all diameters are +.004 and there .200' inside the chamber the nominal is .4862. if you add .004 to that the chamber can be as large as .4902 and still be in spec. I believe this all came about when the industry changed from the non rebated old balloon style cases like the one shown to the modern rebated rim swaged brass. Notice the max bullet dia. .456. Modern 45lc bullets run to only about .454 max with the majority at .452. The current ammo specs don't fill the chambers like the old balloon case ammo. So hard brass and down loaded CAS ammo will exhibit these problems. 45LC CHAMBER AND CARTRIDGE DEMENSIONS This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I really believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for some folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others. Some folks only neck size their once fired rifle brass. For BP, there are some folks using 44-40 brass blown out to 45 and claim it works well. 44-40 brass is really thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 All I can say is I am truly impressed by the wealth of knowledge available here on the SASS Wire. Amazing. I have a tremendous learning curve ahead of me I can see. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I've been shooting and loading .45's for more than fifteen years and have tried pretty much everything over those years. I currently use Trail Boss with the 200gr bullet and load a little over the midpoint of the factory data table for that caliber and bullet weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouchy Greg, SASS#71981 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I started out using Bullseye, but switched over to Trail Boss and haven't looked back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOUBLE OUGHT HAGEN SASS#74836 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 American Select with 200Gr Bullets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monte McCrae SASS #61622 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Started out with Clays moved to Trailboss. A few tenths under max with a 200gr bullet and as Nate said Win brass. I had a chat with one of the Hodgdon reps a few years ago, he told me to use the Lee Factory Crimp Die with 3/4 to a full turn. I had been using a half turn and was having some blow by. I went ahead and tried a full turn, clean brass now comes out of the rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 All I can say is I am truly impressed by the wealth of knowledge available here on the SASS Wire. Amazing. I have a tremendous learning curve ahead of me I can see. Thanks again. Nate Kiowa Jones is the expert on the Winchester 92 and it's clones, and is one of the leading gunsmiths in cowboy shooting. We are blessed to have him comment here. If you pay attention you will encounter other genuine experts. Several on this very thread. Then there are the rest of us. You will learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caprock Leatherneck, SASS #54382 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Ditto for Clays, pistol,rifle shotgun. Whats not to like . 6+ years , 2 shooters. Never aproblem. Caprock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I really believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for some folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others. Yup. Once I went to that combination for my '92 Rossi, it solved everything. I never went back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 When I first started loading for the .45 Colt, I was using Titegroup. Found I didnt like the snappy recoil. Moved to Clays. Recoil was soft but was having ignition problems when I switched from Winchester LP primers to Wolf primers. Switched again to Trail Boss. Found a light recoil and never had an ignition problem with Wolf primers. I am now a Trail Boss fan for life... Until I go to the "Dark Side"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Detonation of a small charge of ball powder such as H110 has been suspected but never demonstrated in the lab. Detonation of faster powders is IMHO a myth used to to rationalize away responsibility for a blown gun when the real culprit is a reloading error such as a double charge or double bullet in a case. Sorry to burst your bubble, But While that used to be the case it has now being proven and duplicated under Lab conditions at considerable expence in time and equipment..... The chart(graft) clearly shows a start to burn (Bubble)a drop, then a spike to destruction .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 And for powder it's hard to beat RED DOT for loads done to normal pressure levels,,,,,, Buy it in da nice boxes with 2 8 pound jugs inside ..... Stack real nice till needed... Works for .32,.38,.38-40,.44-40,.45 Colt And shotshells ....... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Howdy Jabez - could you post a link to the test results you mentioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Bandit Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 As a new guy here this is some good information. I will be paying attention to this discussion. Thanks for the insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Captain Woodrow Cahill; Pard I would like to help you out ,,,, But the results were sent out to LABS including mine that do Ballistic Testing,under a "Disclosure Agreement" Allowing limited release of results ...... What the Lawyer Talk ,,,, means is yes I can tell you it has happened (more than once)and give a "General" overview of what happened,,,,, But little more ... Sorry ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Howdy Jabez - That's OK if you can't post the actual report. Just knowing that it's been verified and the results are repeatable (one of the hallmarks of a true scientific investigation) is enough. The dangers of the pixie dust load aren't an internet legend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICIOUS, SASS#8014 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Howdy; Do not let all this fancy talk overwelm you .Just stick to publisned loads and have fun. I have found tightgroup can be good in just a bit higher than a START load .American select can also work well. Read a good book ,LYMAN reloading books have a excellent place to get a solid fondation of reloading .The first few chapters need to be read several time to grasp of proper reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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